RTKDCMB
Senior Master
I understand the realities of a violent assault just fine. Most physical altercations only last a few seconds - yes, but not all.
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Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.
- Thread starter Kframe
- Start date
I understand the realities of a violent assault just fine. Most physical altercations only last a few seconds - yes, but not all.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yeah... I'd disagree with those as being anything to do with self defence.... no matter how many "black belt karate guys from Israel" say it.
Hmm. Well, your entire post goes against what every single serious self defence instructor I've ever seen, met, trained under, talked with, or anything else say, so I'm not so sure. The idea of "more is better" is really not correct, as well as the whole unpredictable thing....
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
My go-to kick would be the side-thrust kick. For self-defense I would target my attacker's knees. In a class setting, ribs and solar plexis are also a targets of choice.
Very powerful kick that can easily blow out someone's knee.
Very powerful kick that can easily blow out someone's knee.
@Kframe: Personally, I think Chris covered this topic really well. As I read it, what he's said boils down to this:
1. You don't need kicks for self defense, but you do need to be able to defend against them.
2. If you choose to train kicks for self defense, keep them simple and keep them low (groin, knee, etc.).
3. You don't need a large repertoire. In fact you should train the opposite. Train a few simple, bomb-proof moves until you are consistently fast, powerful and can do them reliably even under extreme stress.
There's only one thing I'd like to clarify. I totally agree that you don't need to worry about "being unpredictable" as you would in sparring or competition where your opponent has a chance to observe your habits and adapt his tactics to exploit your weaknesses. A self defense situation should be over in a flash, before your attacker has any chance to adapt and counter. However for that to occur, you absolutely want to be "unpredictable" at the outset and take advantage of the element of surprise.
Check out the following video with Lee Morrison, especilly, from about 2:00 on where he demonstrates the use of "artiface" in self defense:
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KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
Front, side, round, and back kicks. Thrust and snap variations.
Training those will reveal to you what you are good at, what is effective for you, and what is not.
You may drop them altogether. You may have the ability to knock people out at close range with head kicks. The answer to your question is on the mat. People on the forums can only tell you what is or is not effective for themselves. Effective kicking is not in the repertoire of everyone, but don't discard it before you really give it a try.
Your legs are much stronger than your arms, longer,and capable of targeting anywhere from foot to head from a standing position. But, not everyone has the ability to develop that potential.
Dave Hopper
Training those will reveal to you what you are good at, what is effective for you, and what is not.
You may drop them altogether. You may have the ability to knock people out at close range with head kicks. The answer to your question is on the mat. People on the forums can only tell you what is or is not effective for themselves. Effective kicking is not in the repertoire of everyone, but don't discard it before you really give it a try.
Your legs are much stronger than your arms, longer,and capable of targeting anywhere from foot to head from a standing position. But, not everyone has the ability to develop that potential.
Dave Hopper
If you do follow this line of thinking, or even if you don't, learn to fall. This skill will also come in useful during those battles with yourself and a slippery surface.
GaryR
Green Belt
I couldn't agree more with Chris here. If your serious about self defense drop the spin kick fantasies, etc., it's tournament fodder.
A good knee / angle stomp, or learning to use a good knee shot is worth doing. Learn to coordinate the upper and lower so that you can be striking / engaging the hands at the same time your stomp is happening. If you absolutely must learn another kick, a good front kick (not a high one) can be useful, learn how to use it while moving in and closing the distance. If it doesn't land it can continue down and turn into a knee/ankle stomp, or simply function as an exaggerated step in as you strike.
G
- Thread Starter
- #28
Thanks for the advice guys. I will stick to what I know and what my coach teaches. It seams that the popular opinion is I don't need any, and if I do keep them low. Well that is ok with me because, low kicks are the only ones I can do consistently. I will admit that I kinda do have a fantasy of being able to do spin kicks, but I don't think I want to waste any time on it.
So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable? I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee? What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?
So lets talk about low kicks. Im assuming the knee and groin are the obvious targets. Which side of the knee is the most vulnerable? I know from personal experience that a hyper extended knee stinks for months... What about hits to the side of the knee or back of the knee? What about the area I targeted in sparring the upper thigh?
I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing
Dont look at it like that. Kicking a knee is a means to an end. Just try not to hit the kneecap with the top of your foot and you should be good.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
I beg to differ, good sir. I cant use my right hands knuckles, and i still think punching is better than palming or elbowing
But you say, "I still think..." 😄
What you know is that for you, it is not.
The flipside is all the people who have not taken the time to develop effective kicks and then assume that kicking is not effective...for anyone.
But what they know, is that they cannot kick.
Projecting one's skill, or lack thereof, onto someone else is presumptuous, and dangerous.
Dave Hopper
Mate, i am effective with them. Im physically incapable of anything else. And i used to adore kicking, then for reasons other than function discounted it.
Who cares about what happens to the ******* who's attacked you? I WANT him to hurt for months. Hell -- depending on how seriously he's attacked me, I don't want him to EVER hurt again because he's assuming room temperature! He's just friggin' attacked ME! I most certainly will respond with sufficient force to stop the attack, and to make sure he won't attack me again. Professionally, my goal is to survive, and subdue. Privately -- drop the subdue. I want the bad guy stopped, and me able to get away safely. As soon as you've done that much damage -- run!
Good targets for kicks? Think about what's prohibited in sparring and tournament play. Knees are vulnerable from either side or the front; the back is harder to hit and the direction it naturally bends. I don't like the groin as primary target because it is not reliable; I've seen people lifted off the ground by a groin kick keep coming, and others barely grazed crumple. I like the hip pocket, because it makes a mechanical failure long enough to let me do something else. That's about as high as I'm likely to go -- with the exception of a single stomach/chest high kick intended solely to stop a charge.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
OK so I will I will reiterate as succinctly as I can. First of all since certain people seem to get hung up on the smallest part of some of the things I post on this site, I will say one last thing on being unpredictable, It is better to be unpredictable than predictable, however if the person attacking you does not know anything about you or what you know or has little to no martial arts/fighting skills or the attack happens quickly and suddenly then the concept does not count for much. As for the original question on what kicks are needed for self defence? There is only one answer - none, you do not need any specific technique(s) for self defence and styles like Aikido, boxing and judo get along just fine without kicks. A better question would be what kicks are useful for self defence? The answer - any kick can be useful however some kicks are more useful than others. It depends on the situation and what you are most capable of. While it is good to know a variety of techniques, "any serious self defence teacher" will tell you the most important ones are the basics. If you get attacked it is not a jump spinning heel kick, 540 tornado kick or flying double backflip flash kick (if it exists) you will be looking for it will be the front kick, side kick, straight punch, low section block, knife hand strike etc that you'll want.
- Thread Starter
- #35
Jks, thanks for the information sir. I did not mean to sound like I cared what happened to the moron who attacked me. I was only stating that I knew how much a hyper extended knew stank. Thank you for the thoughts on knee targets. I talked to my coach and he said in a future drill he will be dealing with knee kicks. He said that we will be using a downward stomping motion, with our foot parallel to the knee stomping on the side of the knee. With the intention of breaking it.
KenpoDave
2nd Black Belt
I have no doubt. My point is simply that we all have our opinions, based on our own strengths, weaknesses, injuries, age, experience, and on and on.
I try not to discount what I can't do as being ineffective for others. I'm not saying that you do. However, there are posts on this thread that blur the line between "you don't need kicks for SD" and "you shouldn't waste time with kicks because they are ineffective in SD."
Self defense doesn't require any kicks. It does not require any strikes. That said, no matter what techniques are in your arsenal, they will be ineffective if you are unable to access them during an adrenaline dump.
Self defense can be learned in a weekend. Learning, enhancing, and re calibrating the skills that are useful in self defense is ongoing.
My point to the original poster is that everyone will advise based on their own opinions. We advise people to try what we like, and stay away from what does not work...for us. My advice is to take the four most basic kicks, develop them, then decide.
I am curious, it appears you have injured your hands rendering punching a no-no, but you said you discounted kicks for reasons other than function. Would you care to share why?
Dave Hopper
It's important to remember that peoples attitudes will be influenced (even controlled) by their own training and experience. If your training is with guns, you will recommend a gun. If your training is with hand techniques, you will recommend hand techniques. If you're a kicker, you will recommend kicks.
Any technique, even the most complicated, can be effective under the right circumstances. And any technique, even the most simple, can be ineffective under the wrong circumstances.
Train in as many techniques as possible. Start with the simple and add more difficult techniques as your skills improve. No, that tornado kick is not appropriate for all circumstances. But it certainly can be appropriate. I've personally used kicks (and kicks aimed at targets higher than some people will ever accept as being useful) in self defense situations. I've also used low kicks. And punches. And open hand techniques. And grabs. And joint locks. And throws. And pressure points.
The more you know and can apply effectively the better off you will be.
Any technique, even the most complicated, can be effective under the right circumstances. And any technique, even the most simple, can be ineffective under the wrong circumstances.
Train in as many techniques as possible. Start with the simple and add more difficult techniques as your skills improve. No, that tornado kick is not appropriate for all circumstances. But it certainly can be appropriate. I've personally used kicks (and kicks aimed at targets higher than some people will ever accept as being useful) in self defense situations. I've also used low kicks. And punches. And open hand techniques. And grabs. And joint locks. And throws. And pressure points.
The more you know and can apply effectively the better off you will be.
martial sparrer
Orange Belt
I just read to forget spin kicks for self defense. I do not agree because honestly if you have good balance and footwork a spin kick may be good for YOU. for example I just finished sparring tonight.....and I threw some effective spin kicks and high rounds to my opponent. these kicks can also be used to intimidate and back someone off. the key is with spin kicks to finish the 360 degree rotation so you come full circle to not give up your back or limb so much. the key to effective sparring and fighting is being able to problem solve quickly!
In order;
I understand your point, but there are exceptions.
I made a comparison between something i can but dont do, and something i cant and dont do, but support anyway.
Ive discounted kicks because i seriously cant see any viable opportunity to use them if you dont have the space that you couldnt better use some other way. If you do have the space, you can close the gap and use that momentum to your advantage. While that doesnt mean that kicking is bad, it does mean that there is absolutely no situation where its necessary, unless you want it to be necessary. I brought up the comparison i have because as everyones been saying, you dont need kicks. That means a bit more than not needing them. If you want them, you can have them and you can make them work for you. If you dont want them, you wont feel the loss because youll just do something else instead. It means that while we all speak from experience, i dont need to be able to throw a punch to argue that its better than the alternatives, even though my use of the alternatives hit harder and more often than i ever used to with punches (figure that one out, logical people! there is actually a really simple reason though). Compared to discounting kicking despite being good at it (im a TKD guy, for those who arent aware) because i have yet to see any situation where its a better option than using your upper body, perhaps with the exception of various forms of grappling. That isnt me saying theyre bad, thats me saying that not only do you not need them, but theyre totally unnecessary. If you want to do them, however, i can say as someone who used to adore the things that you can make them work for you, in an assortment of ways.
GaryR
Green Belt
Ok, I'll bite! What is your reasoning? I like palm strikes better than punches for very specific reasons that I believe to be universally applicable. But not always the same part of the palm. For starters using that little bony bit on the bottom opposite thumb side (I believe it's called the pisiform bone), can put more force per square inch into the target and do more damage than a fist, with much less risk of injury to ones self.
Cyriacus said:
I agree with this for sure. It's refreshing to see a TKD guy say this! I would echo that there are objectively better ways to approach things regardless of ones personal attributes. Unless you have mastered everything else, kicking above the waste should not be bothered with. (unless its for fun / tournaments of course).
G
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