Kicks!!! How many of what kind are needed for self defense.

[RTKDCMB]

Sorry I have not posted much, I have been reading the back and forth about punching and enjoying it. Looking at my father, he does infact have a default kick he uses. I noticed when I turn a corner in his home, or some how unexpectedly run into him some where, his startle response involves a front snap kick. He will go into what I can only guess is the TKD back stance, with all his weight on his rear leg, his arms come up into what looks like a Karate X block in front of his chest and his lead leg comes up and into position for the front snap kick. Its almost like he brings his front leg up to the chamber position of the kick.

He should probably cut back on the caffeine.

I have pretty much ruled out any kicks that involve jumping, no need for that kind of risk, not that I could do them anyways. That leaves all the terrestrial kicks, the basic ones mentioned the front(both flavors) the side and round. All of which I have in my arsenal and can use proficiently in low line kicks. That leaves the other 2 kicks, the back kick and the hook kick. Are these of any consideration? I have seen a lot of people hook kick and fall over when impacting, which is bad for self defense usage. The back kick, seems like a less risky kick, tho it does turn your back to the enemy, but it hits like a brick.

Since you mentioned TKD I am going to assume that you mean the TKD style hook kicks and back kicks. The hook kick id primarily designed to hit a target that moves after you hit it such as the head or in some cases the legs, it rely's on being able to follow through the target. When you try to hit a solid target such as the body and don't have enough momentum to follow through you get rebound which can knock you on your butt if you can not compensate for it so it is not recommended to use it in that fashion. It makes a good sweep for the legs, you could also hook the leg as you sweep it. Although kicking to the head is not usually a good idea for self defence as it leaves your groin vulnerable the hook kick is probably one of the fastest kicks around in terms of foot velocity and if you are good or lucky enough to land one fully it can be a fight ender. I once knocked somebody out during his black belt grading with a hook kick and it only clipped him (he was alright soon after and passed). If you are going to use a hook kick it is better to use the heel than the ball of the foot. The back kick does leave you a little more vulnerable as you have to turn your back on the opponent but that can be mitigated a bit if you distract them with a strike before you turn around or use it after round or side kick. It is also useful if your opponent has gotten around to your back at kicking range, for example after they have blocked your side kick or the back of your leg or moved back away from your round kick and you have over-rotated it may be easier to turn around rather than step across. The back kick is arguably one of the most powerful kicks there is. All kicks and attacking movements leave you vulnerable to some extent you just have to do what you can do when the time is right. As for jumping kicks they are very risky but they could have some uses such as if you have to help someone who is getting attacked and you run to help them you can suddenly jump and kick them rather than stop first to do something else. Or if you were getting chased by a guy and his friend jumps out in front of you to stop you then you could suddenly jump and kick him without slowing down much. So jumping kicks could still be useful but you it is very likely that you will get much of a chance to use them.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually, it does make a difference... 90 degrees means that, as the knuckles impact, so will the front of the fingers, which can force them back, and damage them. Less than 90 degrees, and the impact is with the fore-knuckles, which take the brunt of the force. Yes, the fingers will still contact, but they don't "impact" (take the major force of the strike). Again, the words are important.

You missed my point, the angle I was referring to is the inside angle made by the back of the hand from the 2nd knuckles of the fingers to the wrist joint when the fist is formed. I don't know about anyone else but I can not make an angle smaller (more acute) than 90 degrees even with the fingers straight. When the thumb goes past the middle finger towards the pinky the first 2 fingers start to protrude and that is when the fingers get busted with the punch.

The head does, the bones don't. The jaw bone does. The nose does (when it breaks). The skull doesn't. And your hand breaks.

For one thing the bones usually travel with the head (the words are important remember) Secondly the only targets on the head for the punch are: the nose, jaw, chin, under the chin, the temporomandibular joint (I learned a new word), temple and the mastoid, these are the weakest portions of the head, if you want to keep your hands in good condition you do not hit the hard parts.

Yeah... look, to be blunt, knuckle push-ups are really useless for hand conditioning (as related to striking), finger push-ups are really only to help strengthen your fingers, not condition them for striking, and so on. Board and tile breaking, same, really. That's good for focus, but not so much for conditioning. Actual hand conditioning is closer to bag work, when all's said and done. Only the last two things you mention are related to (or applicable for) hand conditioning.

Knuckle pushups also help to strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the wrist and help to ensure the fists are clenched properly, this strengthening is increased with the twisting and the jumping knuckle pushups.

Yeah... not sure what relevance this really has... other than you need more training in striking properly...

The relevance is: you mentioned the reason you prefer to use palm strikes is because of injuries caused by punching so I mentioned some other possible injuries in support of that so in essence you are disagreeing with me agreeing with you which I find disagreeable.

 

[Chris Parker]

You missed my point, the angle I was referring to is the inside angle made by the back of the hand from the 2nd knuckles of the fingers to the wrist joint when the fist is formed.

Huh? Did you want to rephrase that a little clearer? If you're trying to say that you're meaning the angle the first joint/bone of the finger makes down from the hand (when forming a fist), well, yeah, that's the same one I'm talking about. If you're saying something else, well... huh?

I don't know about anyone else but I can not make an angle smaller (more acute) than 90 degrees even with the fingers straight. When the thumb goes past the middle finger towards the pinky the first 2 fingers start to protrude and that is when the fingers get busted with the punch.

Well, to start with, we actually form our fists a little differently to that, so you know... but more importantly, the issue of breaking your hands has been more about the knuckles or metacarpals, not the fingers themselves. That's a secondary injury, and is a result of impacting with the incorrect part of the fist.

For one thing the bones usually travel with the head (the words are important remember) Secondly the only targets on the head for the punch are: the nose, jaw, chin, under the chin, the temporomandibular joint (I learned a new word), temple and the mastoid, these are the weakest portions of the head, if you want to keep your hands in good condition you do not hit the hard parts.

Oh dear lord... the head moves (when hitting the skull) because the neck it is placed on moves, not the skull inside the head itself. The jaw and nose (when broken) move inside the head itself, reducing the transferred force back into the hand by having the moving section of the target absorb a fair amount of the force in the first place. It's called kinetic transference, for the record. The skull doesn't allow absorption in the same way, as there is less kinetic transference, leading to a larger amount of force sent back into the impacting weapon (the fist). We're really dealing basic Newtonian physics here... every action etc...

Oh, and your targets are "nose, jaw, jaw, jaw, jaw, temple, and the jaw". And I'd be very reticent to advise the temple. While it is the thinnest part of the skull, and can be broken easier than the rest of it, it's a fairly small target, and only allows absorption again when there's breaking occuring, and it's easy enough to miss and impact with the knuckles onto the hard, thick skull, leaving your hand as broken as before. But, for the record, you missed the base of the ear (behind the mastoid, for the record), the orbital bone, the cheekbone, and the base of the skull, as well as the top of the head, the point below the nose, the labrette point (under the lower lip), centre of the forehead, and so on. Each of these are targeted by our systems, but punching with a closed fist is not really advised there either.

Knuckle pushups also help to strengthen the muscles, ligaments and tendons in the wrist and help to ensure the fists are clenched properly, this strengthening is increased with the twisting and the jumping knuckle pushups.

Which does absolutely nothing with regard to the cortical remodeling or other aspects of Wolff's Law you were talking about. And, for the record, due to the way push ups are done, it actually takes the wrist out of proper alignment for a strike, with more side-loading of pressure than a punch gives, which actually makes them more dangerous than regular push ups with no real benefit.

The relevance is: you mentioned the reason you prefer to use palm strikes is because of injuries caused by punching so I mentioned some other possible injuries in support of that so in essence you are disagreeing with me agreeing with you which I find disagreeable.

All you demonstrated was that if you struck a target with bad form, you could injure yourself. It wasn't in favour of anything I was saying, nor was it really relevant to the argument on either side.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well, to start with, we actually form our fists a little differently to that, so you know... but more importantly, the issue of breaking your hands has been more about the knuckles or metacarpals, not the fingers themselves. That's a secondary injury, and is a result of impacting with the incorrect part of the fist.

True although a broken hand will not necessarily end a fight.

Oh, and your targets are "nose, jaw, jaw, jaw, jaw, temple, and the jaw". And I'd be very reticent to advise the temple. While it is the thinnest part of the skull, and can be broken easier than the rest of it, it's a fairly small target, and only allows absorption again when there's breaking occuring, and it's easy enough to miss and impact with the knuckles onto the hard, thick skull, leaving your hand as broken as before. But, for the record, you missed the base of the ear (behind the mastoid, for the record), the orbital bone, the cheekbone, and the base of the skull, as well as the top of the head, the point below the nose, the labrette point (under the lower lip), centre of the forehead, and so on. Each of these are targeted by our systems, but punching with a closed fist is not really advised there either.

I was referring to the targets of the punch not targets for just anything. Yes I missed the cheekbone, thank you for pointing that out. The base of the skull is more of a target for the knife hand strike. the jaw joint I was referring to is just under the ear where the jaw bone meets the skull. Punching anywhere near the mouth is a bad idea unless you want teeth imbedded in your hand. The point below the nose you are referring to is called the philtrim area and is usually a target for the middle knuckle fist or the bear hand (panther fist or whatever you want to call it). The top of the head is more for the hammer fist, I would never punch there. The center of the forehead is not really a good target for anything this is the most likely spot to break your hand on and the orbital bone is not much better so I wouldn't punch there either. The temple, struck with either the front or the back of the knuckles, is not that hard to hit when you are accurate and skillful and you don't have to hit it hard enough to break your hand for it to have a desirable (for you) effect.

Which does absolutely nothing with regard to the cortical remodeling or other aspects of Wolff's Law you were talking about.

I will concede the point about cortical remodeling but Wolff's law still applies.

And, for the record, due to the way push ups are done, it actually takes the wrist out of proper alignment for a strike, with more side-loading of pressure than a punch gives, which actually makes them more dangerous than regular push ups with no real benefit.

I don't know how you think knuckle pushups are done but what you said is not true for the way others do them. Others get with plenty of benefits out of doing knuckle pushups with proper alignment.

Punching, like anything, if you don't believe in it, practice it or use it then it will do nothing for you, if you prefer open hand strikes to punching and/or don't use punching at all then good for you, we all have to use what works for us which is not always the same as what works for someone else. That is the last I will say on the subject of punching in this kicking thread.

 

[Kframe]

I have been watching videos of the TKD hook kick. Does anyone have any videos of it being performed against low targets such as legs and knees? I am currently using the video to practices the core movements of the kick, but I lack the flexibility to do the actual kick high.

With regards to front snap kicks, what is the proper impact area of the foot? Ball or heel? On my heavy bag, and other objects I try to impact with the balls of my feet. Secondly, I know that the solar plexus is a preferred target, but what about the floating ribs? How do they stack up as targets. I tend to target them first, as that was how I was taught by my boxing coach. He felt it was, in his experience(4xgolden gloves, 3xAAU titles) that floating rib shots KO people faster then head shots. So that is usually were I target when I drop down for a lower body punch. Since I have only done it in light to medium sparring I have not done it against anyone with real force. Whats your guys thoughs on aiming linear kicks, such as front snaps and side kicks and others to that area?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have been watching videos of the TKD hook kick. Does anyone have any videos of it being performed against low targets such as legs and knees? I am currently using the video to practices the core movements of the kick, but I lack the flexibility to do the actual kick high.

With regards to front snap kicks, what is the proper impact area of the foot? Ball or heel? On my heavy bag, and other objects I try to impact with the balls of my feet. Secondly, I know that the solar plexus is a preferred target, but what about the floating ribs? How do they stack up as targets. I tend to target them first, as that was how I was taught by my boxing coach. He felt it was, in his experience(4xgolden gloves, 3xAAU titles) that floating rib shots KO people faster then head shots. So that is usually were I target when I drop down for a lower body punch. Since I have only done it in light to medium sparring I have not done it against anyone with real force. Whats your guys thoughs on aiming linear kicks, such as front snaps and side kicks and others to that area?

Hook kicks to the knees can be used very effectively as a take down or sweep.

We teach the impact area for the front snap kick as the ball of the foot. The heel is the impact point for thrust kicks. Generally... there are always exceptions.
Effective lower targets for the front snap kick would include the ones you mentioned, plus the liver, knees, thigh...

 

[martial sparrer]

I am replying as someone that has learned kicks from a karate textbook....not insructor....I know tuere is a heel front kick vs penetrating front kick that uses ball of foot
I love heel kicks...the heel kick i enjoy doing is a spinning high heel, but it a bent body kick....not so realistic for sparring but fun to do

I beleive the liver shot is the right side of rib cage...this will take someone out quick...I think yu may die from this shot if hard enough because your liver can leak out toxins....
But again....someone on here will tell me i am wrong
QUOTE=Kframe;1564281]I have been watching videos of the TKD hook kick. Does anyone have any videos of it being performed against low targets such as legs and knees? I am currently using the video to practices the core movements of the kick, but I lack the flexibility to do the actual kick high.

With regards to front snap kicks, what is the proper impact area of the foot? Ball or heel? On my heavy bag, and other objects I try to impact with the balls of my feet. Secondly, I know that the solar plexus is a preferred target, but what about the floating ribs? How do they stack up as targets. I tend to target them first, as that was how I was taught by my boxing coach. He felt it was, in his experience(4xgolden gloves, 3xAAU titles) that floating rib shots KO people faster then head shots. So that is usually were I target when I drop down for a lower body punch. Since I have only done it in light to medium sparring I have not done it against anyone with real force. Whats your guys thoughs on aiming linear kicks, such as front snaps and side kicks and others to that area?[/QUOTE]

 

[Dirty Dog]

I am replying as someone that has learned kicks from a karate textbook....not insructor....I know tuere is a heel front kick vs penetrating front kick that uses ball of foot
I love heel kicks...the heel kick i enjoy doing is a spinning high heel, but it a bent body kick....not so realistic for sparring but fun to do

Hook kicks (which is what it sounds like you're describing) are entirely reasonable for sparring, and for self-defense, under the right circumstances.

I beleive the liver shot is the right side of rib cage...this will take someone out quick...I think yu may die from this shot if hard enough because your liver can leak out toxins....
But again....someone on here will tell me i am wrong

Um, no. The liver is NOT going to leak out toxins. That is utter nonsense. Enough impact to the liver can cause it to bleed, which is obviously a Bad Thing (tm), but frankly this is very unlikely at the impact levels we're talking about here.

 

[jks9199]

Um, no. The liver is NOT going to leak out toxins. That is utter nonsense. Enough impact to the liver can cause it to bleed, which is obviously a Bad Thing (tm), but frankly this is very unlikely at the impact levels we're talking about here.

I know getting hit in the liver area hurts like hell, and can stop a fight in many cases... but, assuming reasonable damage for a punch or kick, how long for a bleeding liver to really be a serious injury?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I know getting hit in the liver area hurts like hell, and can stop a fight in many cases... but, assuming reasonable damage for a punch or kick, how long for a bleeding liver to really be a serious injury?

If we assume reasonable damage from a punch or kick, there won't BE any significant bleeding from the liver.

Liver lacs are graded from I-VI, with a I being essentially a bruise (less than 10% of the surface area of the liver involved) or small tear. These injuries rarely require anything other than observation.
A grade VI means the liver has essentially exploded and become separated from the various vascular structures. You're going to die fairly quickly.
But, realistically, even if you stomp them while they're on the floor, you're unlikely to cause anything more than maybe a grade I. And against a standing, mobile opponent, you're very unlikely to cause any significant liver injury.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Since this thread on kicking seemed to go towards punching versus palm strikes which caused some disagreement over potential injuries so here is an article I just found so you can decide for yourselves.

http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html

 

[Aiki Lee]

If we assume reasonable damage from a punch or kick, there won't BE any significant bleeding from the liver.

Liver lacs are graded from I-VI, with a I being essentially a bruise (less than 10% of the surface area of the liver involved) or small tear. These injuries rarely require anything other than observation.
A grade VI means the liver has essentially exploded and become separated from the various vascular structures. You're going to die fairly quickly.
But, realistically, even if you stomp them while they're on the floor, you're unlikely to cause anything more than maybe a grade I. And against a standing, mobile opponent, you're very unlikely to cause any significant liver injury.

Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?

 

[K-man]

Since this thread on kicking seemed to go towards punching versus palm strikes which caused some disagreement over potential injuries so here is an article I just found so you can decide for yourselves.

http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/breakyourhand/breakyourhand.html

Which reinforces the benefit of Makiwara training and further adds weight to the argument against the horizontal fist. :asian:

 

[K-man]

Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?

Kidneys immediately spring to mind and although not an organ, the bladder is quite vulnerable. :asian:

 

[Dirty Dog]

Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?

Realistically? The only organ commonly injured by kicks/punches is the skin. There is often bruising in the underlying tissues. But that is pretty much it, in the VAST majority of cases. Occasionally there are injuries to the thin bones in the orbits, most commonly the cheek. Occasionally, there might be a concussion, usually a fairly mild one. The trachea and eyes are vulnerable, but rarely are they actually injured.

Injuries to the internal organs are possible, but really very unlikely.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Currious, which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking in your opinion?

The brain through concussion and brain damage, kidneys can be bruised, ruptured or dislocated, the lungs can be collapsed and/or punctured with the ribs or collar bone, the bladder which actually is an organ can be ruptured especially if it is full at the time, the spleen can be ruptured and the eyes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Which reinforces the benefit of Makiwara training and further adds weight to the argument against the horizontal fist. :asian:

Adds weight to yes, topples over no. I could do with another Makiwara.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The brain through concussion and brain damage, kidneys can be bruised, ruptured or dislocated, the lungs can be collapsed and/or punctured with the ribs or collar bone, the bladder which actually is an organ can be ruptured especially if it is full at the time, the spleen can be ruptured and the eyes.

Those are all fine theories. Want to take a guess how often these injuries actually occur in the real world? I've only been in the ER for better than 20 years...

 

[RTKDCMB]

Those are all fine theories. Want to take a guess how often these injuries actually occur in the real world? I've only been in the ER for better than 20 years...

Probably not that many in just your ER alone is your ER a representative example of all ER's or are you in a more or less violent area than average?, What percentage of injuries have occurred as a result of assault? What percentage of those were classified as serious or minor? What percentage of those were the result of someone with martial arts or fight training that were the attackers? All would be interesting to know. The question was "Which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking" not "how common they were". However what is not theory is the bruised kidney my friend suffered in an assault once and the victims of assault I have seen on the NEWS that suffered brain damage.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Probably not that many in just your ER alone is your ER a representative example of all ER's or are you in a more or less violent area than average?, What percentage of injuries have occurred as a result of assault? What percentage of those were classified as serious or minor? What percentage of those were the result of someone with martial arts or fight training that were the attackers? All would be interesting to know. The question was "Which organs are the most easily damaged from someone punching or kicking" not "how common they were". However what is not theory is the bruised kidney my friend suffered in an assault once and the victims of assault I have seen on the NEWS that suffered brain damage.

We're in a somewhat more violent area than average, and given the large number of military servicemen involved in fights around here, it's safe to assume at least some degree of training.
The reason those injuries make the NEWS is... because they're NEWS. NEWS isn't the injuries that occur every single day. And, truthfully, they're rarely as dramatic as the media makes them out to be.

I'm not trying to start an argument, (and am in fact totally uninterested in arguing, so if you're one of those who likes to have 'the last word', feel free.) I'm just pointing out the difference between theory and reality.