How can you become a good fighter if self-defense is your goal?

[JowGaWolf]

That sounds like you've bought into the marketing behind those "combatives" courses. From what I've seen, their movements are not any simpler than most other martial arts' approach.

That's what it sounds like to me too. I don't know any skill set that didn't require someone to practice in order to be good at it, or to pull it off during intense situations. If something was so natural that you can pull it off while panicking, then you probably already do it and there is no need to take a class in it. But if there's a class for it then it will probably take a lot of practice to learn it and to be proficient in it.

And the "think" part usually follows the general benefit of practice which is,, "The more you train it, the least you have to manually think about how to do it." Much of the stuff that we do is like that. If a person spars enough at a higher intensity, then that adrenaline also becomes easier to manage, but it's only because the person had practice with managing it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What if the guy is holding the knife backhand?

Most of the CMA dagger skill is used backhand. My favor move is the backhand hold S cut. You first use a horizontal cut across your opponent's waist. When he dodges, you then cut his throat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most of the CMA dagger skill is used backhand. My favor move is the backhand hold S cut. You first use a horizontal cut across your opponent's waist. When he dodges, you then cut his throat.

I would like to see some take some soft Nerf blades and actually fight with Chinese daggers. I think the training knives would still be too hard. I've been stabbed with a rubber training knife before and it still hurts to be poked with it.

Oddly enough shock knives look fun to me lol

 

[jobo]

Scenario training is just a chance to try some stuff out, really. If I think I can use my fantastic jab to keep a knife away if their arms are shorter, then that's a scenario I ought to play with. It's really just a way to introduce more variation, so skills can be generalized with more information (rather than by pure assumption). I don't like to spend a lot of time on them, except when I just want a new "game" to play - scenarios are just new rulesets to fight under.

i did find a knife scenario useful, in that against my partner who was athletic, i was never fast enough to not get stabbed,but that then ended the lesson, if im ever faced with an athletic attacker with a knife im in serious trouble, there is no workable solution to it

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most of the CMA dagger skill is used backhand. My favor move is the backhand hold S cut. You first use a horizontal cut across your opponent's waist. When he dodges, you then cut his throat.

That wasn't a question for discussion; I was just showing an example of how scenario training might be more or less specific, depending upon the question being asked.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would like to see some take some soft Nerf blades and actually fight with Chinese daggers. I think the training knives would still be too hard. I've been stabbed with a rubber training knife before and it still hurts to be poked with it.

Oddly enough shock knives look fun to me lol

I've worked with a range of training weapons, including soft knives and thick-edged (unsharpenable) metal blades. There's some benefit to each. The pain from a hard training weapon is good for getting used to not wanting to let it in. Drills with the soft knife can go much harder, but too much of that tends to get students being too okay with the knife getting through, so they take more chances.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i did find a knife scenario useful, in that against my partner who was athletic, i was never fast enough to not get stabbed,but that then ended the lesson, if im ever faced with an athletic attacker with a knife im in serious trouble, there is no workable solution to it

One important lesson from actual knife attacks is that in many cases you're not actually down with the first cut or stab. When someone gets through, you keep fighting until you get the weapon. The hope (some psychological evidence supports this, but no way to get direct data to be sure it generalizes this way) is that you develop the habit of not stopping just because you got stabbed, so it increases the chance you manage to fight this off and get a trip to a surgeon, rather than a morgue.

 

[jobo]

One important lesson from actual knife attacks is that in many cases you're not actually down with the first cut or stab. When someone gets through, you keep fighting until you get the weapon. The hope (some psychological evidence supports this, but no way to get direct data to be sure it generalizes this way) is that you develop the habit of not stopping just because you got stabbed, so it increases the chance you manage to fight this off and get a trip to a surgeon, rather than a morgue.

there not going to keep stabbing you, unless you've wondered on to the set of phyco, once or twice maybe, then they will look to leave, people who have just '' murdered you'' ( potentially ) dont tend to hang around for long, but any way if your not fast enough to stop the first one or two then your not fast enough to stop subsequent attempts either, you can be stabbed 8 or 10 times in 2 or 3 seconds or so if they go full Hitchcock on you

 

[Gerry Seymour]

there not going to keep stabbing you, unless you've wondered on to the set of physio, once or twice maybe, then they will look to leave, people who have just '' murdered you'' ( potentially ) dont tend to hang around for long, but any way if your not fast enough to stop the first one or two then your not fast enough to stop subsequent attempts either, you can be stabbed 8 or 10 times in 3 seconds or so if they go full Hitchcock on you

The basic idea is that if you quit, they get to do whatever they want. That might mean leaving, but it might not. If someone does the sewing-machine stab without warning (pretty rare, so not something to train around a lot), there's not much you can do but try to trap that arm before they perforate too many times. Stabs are survivable, depending upon what gets cut.

Mostly, it's about developing the mentality of not stopping, like with getting punched (lots of folks seem startled the first time they take a good punch, and just stop in their tracks). Some of the folks I've talked to and read about who survived knife attacks said that at the time they just thought they'd been punched really hard. It wasn't until the fight was over that they realized they'd been stabbed. If all that changed was someone knowing there was a knife and realizing they'd been stabbed, they shouldn't just stop because of the stabbing.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

That sounds like you've bought into the marketing behind those "combatives" courses. From what I've seen, their movements are not any simpler than most other martial arts' approach. They may have fewer, and may lack the traditional drills (which are also not present in some other systems), but they're not inherently simpler. And any MA trained extensively actually moves beyond conscious thought for most folks.

I dont mean literally easier to learn, i mean its not like a 540 kick. Compared to things like that. The point and role of combatives is to basically give you the bare bones to fight against a untrained person though. That doesnt require you learning 540 kicks. And i just rememebred the word to decribe it, it focuses pretty much on the highest percentage moves for the most situations that you can do and retain the easiest and use the easiest when on adreniline.


Tradtional martial arts training/comabt sports would do what i wrote above, give you more complex and niche skills for situations and basically be the add on to it.

 

[Headhunter]

I dont mean literally easier to learn, i mean its not like a 540 kick. Compared to things like that. The point and role of combatives is to basically give you the bare bones to fight against a untrained person though. That doesnt require you learning 540 kicks. And i just rememebred the word to decribe it, it focuses pretty much on the highest percentage moves for the most situations that you can do and retain the easiest and use the easiest when on adreniline.


Tradtional martial arts training/comabt sports would do what i wrote above, give you more complex and niche skills for situations and basically be the add on to it.

How do you know what traditional martial arts or combat sports teach? You started training yet?

 

[skribs]

I don't like to play with any particular scenario. I let my guys to use plastic dagger to fight. Any body cut will end that round. Test for 15 rounds, and get the final result.

You either let your students to know the reality, or let them to believe that their MA skill is good enough to handle a knife without proper testing.

Have to agree with @gpseymour that that IS a scenario.

Aren't you also the guy who's suggested isolating techniques to use? Or do I have you confused with someone else?

 

[skribs]

I dont mean literally easier to learn, i mean its not like a 540 kick. Compared to things like that. The point and role of combatives is to basically give you the bare bones to fight against a untrained person though. That doesnt require you learning 540 kicks. And i just rememebred the word to decribe it, it focuses pretty much on the highest percentage moves for the most situations that you can do and retain the easiest and use the easiest when on adreniline.


Tradtional martial arts training/comabt sports would do what i wrote above, give you more complex and niche skills for situations and basically be the add on to it.

540 kicks are only required in performance-based arts, if you do performances. They're not even required of my demonstration team at my Taekwondo school. Did you learn 540 kicks during the couple of months you did Taekwondo? Or have you just seen guides online and assume that's all TMAs learn?

 

[jobo]

I dont mean literally easier to learn, i mean its not like a 540 kick. Compared to things like that. The point and role of combatives is to basically give you the bare bones to fight against a untrained person though. That doesnt require you learning 540 kicks. And i just rememebred the word to decribe it, it focuses pretty much on the highest percentage moves for the most situations that you can do and retain the easiest and use the easiest when on adreniline.


Tradtional martial arts training/comabt sports would do what i wrote above, give you more complex and niche skills for situations and basically be the add on to it.

they very much seem to market themselves by pointing problems with tma, which their system of course doesn't have and wear combatty things and have a mean looking guy with big arms as the face of the product.

. they are of course being deceptive to the main part, their system are no better or worse than tma systems, infact they have far more similarities than differences, there are only so many variations on how to fight someone

tma does perhaps become over concerned with multiple variations and needless complexity, but only after you have learnt the basics, which are the very same basics the combat system will teach you, in 6 months you will be in much the same place no matter which you choose

 

[jobo]

The basic idea is that if you quit, they get to do whatever they want. That might mean leaving, but it might not. If someone does the sewing-machine stab without warning (pretty rare, so not something to train around a lot), there's not much you can do but try to trap that arm before they perforate too many times. Stabs are survivable, depending upon what gets cut.

Mostly, it's about developing the mentality of not stopping, like with getting punched (lots of folks seem startled the first time they take a good punch, and just stop in their tracks). Some of the folks I've talked to and read about who survived knife attacks said that at the time they just thought they'd been punched really hard. It wasn't until the fight was over that they realized they'd been stabbed. If all that changed was someone knowing there was a knife and realizing they'd been stabbed, they shouldn't just stop because of the stabbing.

i cant argue with ''dont stop'' as a learning point, unless your stopping them from leaving which may not be the best idea.

but knife training that doesnt establish that knife fighting/disarm is a game of speed and reactions is failing in its most basic requirement

 

[Deleted member 39746]

they very much seem to market themselves by pointing problems with tma, which their system of course doesn't have and wear combatty things and have a mean looking guy with big arms as the face of the product.

. they are of course being deceptive to the main part, their system are no better or worse than tma systems, infact they have far more similarities than differences, there are only so many variations on how to fight someone

tma does perhaps become over concerned with multiple variations, but only after you have learnt the basics, which are the very same basics the combat system will teach you

Well the issue with said generalisations is they are generalisations. people who teach combatives vary and obviously ability and skill varies and circculem varies based on what system they follow and what their infleunces are. it has the same problems any fighting system can have.

Second point, thats simply broken down to they have a diffrent job. Its made for a diffrent purpose to say comabt sports or some TMA. There are a varity of sub types in it though like there are in the other catergories. I thought i relayed that is basically the fundemental diffrence, they cover a diffrent priority list. Like my first post i mentioned combatives then SD combatives to differentiate somone just teaching fighting as opposed to somone teaching the non physical skills for SD alongside the physical ones.


this isnt a exact science and there are many words to call many things and its ultimately prefrence. Like the exact meaning of RBSD is a good thing, its marketing why some lesser skilled persons have adopted calling their system that to basically ride off the populairty of who ever made the term. (which were indeed quite compotent in the subject if i got the orginator(s) correct) that appears in many things.

Edit: I personally prefer calling things that say give you a small set of needed skills to cover the most situations as quickly as possible combatives. For example military combative programes, krav maga, UC etc. thats just my prefrence in terminology and to differentiate them from other types of training.

 

[jobo]

Well the issue with said generalisations is they are generalisations. people who teach combatives vary and obviously ability and skill varies and circculem varies based on what system they follow and what their infleunces are. it has the same problems any fighting system can have.

Second point, thats simply broken down to they have a diffrent job. Its made for a diffrent purpose to say comabt sports or some TMA. There are a varity of sub types in it though like there are in the other catergories. I thought i relayed that is basically the fundemental diffrence, they cover a diffrent priority list. Like my first post i mentioned combatives then SD combatives to differentiate somone just teaching fighting as opposed to somone teaching the non physical skills for SD alongside the physical ones.


this isnt a exact science and there are many words to call many things and its ultimately prefrence. Like the exact meaning of RBSD is a good thing, its marketing why some lesser skilled persons have adopted calling their system that to basically ride off the populairty of who ever made the term. (which were indeed quite compotent in the subject if i got the orginator(s) correct) that appears in many things.

Edit: I personally prefer calling things that say give you a small set of needed skills to cover the most situations as quickly as possible combatives. For example military combative programes, krav maga, UC etc. thats just my prefrence in terminology and to differentiate them from other types of training.

how have you arrived at the conclusion that tma dont teach a small number of basics that you learn as quickly as possible ? kick, punch block throw etal

how do you feel that the basics in say KM differ from these ?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

how have you arrived at the conclusion that tma dont teach a small number of basics that you learn as quickly as possible ? kick, punch block throw etal

how do you feel that the basics in say KM differ from these ?

They do. But what i mean is more, they may have fluff in some areas where as combatives in principle doesnt or be holding to some rules. And they usually arent hybrids, in the sense you do striking and grappling and cover all aspects of fighting in the system or at least early on.

I have managed to find a apparant P1 KMG curriculum, and to highlight my point, they cover at least the basics in all aspects of fighting. You get some hand strikes, some kicks, some knees, some elbows, breakfall, 360 defence and how that applies to some situations. where as if we look at say boxing, for obvious reasons they only cover the 4 strikes you do in boxing. Its more down to the scope of the system and context of it. Krav maga obviously doesnt exist to put people in a boxing ring to fight in the sport of boxing, boxing doesnt exist to teach you self defence. so fourth. I honestly would deem it mute to compare a system that exists to quickly give somone skills to effectively fight against a untrained attacker to somone who is competing proffesionally in a combat sport.


thats basically my fundemental point, the scope of combatives is diffrent to martial arts.

 

[jobo]

They do. But what i mean is more, they may have fluff in some areas where as combatives in principle doesnt or be holding to some rules. And they usually arent hybrids, in the sense you do striking and grappling and cover all aspects of fighting in thr system or at least early on.

I have managed to find a apparant P1 KMG curriculum, and to highlight my point, they cover at least the basics in all aspects of fighting. You get some hand strikes, some kicks, some knees, some elbows, breakfall, 360 defence and how that applies to some situations. where as if we look at say boxing, for obvious reasons they only cover the 4 strikes you do in boxing. Its more down to the scope of the system and context of it. Krav maga obviously doesnt exist to put people in a boxing ring to fight in the sport of boxing, boxing doesnt exist to teach you self defence. so fourth. I honestly would deem it mute to compare a system that exists to quickly give somone skills to effectively fight against a untrained attacker to somone who is competing proffesionally in a combat sport.


thats basically my fundemental point, the scope of comabtives is diffrent to martial arts.

but youve picked out boxing that isnt tma,at least not by most defintions.

ive done multiple ma some briefly to get what i needed some for far longer.

i did judo, which was excellent for self defence, they generally cant hurt you if they are on the floor. i did jujitsu, that involved blocking throwing and punching and ive done kung fu and karate that does blocking then punching and then throwing.

they were all excellent at teaching basic and effective self defence skills, i met up with a lad last year that i had a fight with 35 years ago, he is still complaining that i knocked his front teeth out with an elbow when he grabbed me from behind

so i ask again, though as youve done neither tma or combative im not sure why im bothering, what skills would you learn in coms that you couldn't also get from tma in the same time frame

nb its MOOT not mute

 

[skribs]

They do. But what i mean is more, they may have fluff in some areas where as combatives in principle doesnt or be holding to some rules. And they usually arent hybrids, in the sense you do striking and grappling and cover all aspects of fighting in the system or at least early on.

I have managed to find a apparant P1 KMG curriculum, and to highlight my point, they cover at least the basics in all aspects of fighting. You get some hand strikes, some kicks, some knees, some elbows, breakfall, 360 defence and how that applies to some situations. where as if we look at say boxing, for obvious reasons they only cover the 4 strikes you do in boxing. Its more down to the scope of the system and context of it. Krav maga obviously doesnt exist to put people in a boxing ring to fight in the sport of boxing, boxing doesnt exist to teach you self defence. so fourth. I honestly would deem it mute to compare a system that exists to quickly give somone skills to effectively fight against a untrained attacker to somone who is competing proffesionally in a combat sport.


thats basically my fundemental point, the scope of combatives is diffrent to martial arts.

Have you trained that curriculum? Or just found it? Because what's on paper or on video of a curriculum is often not what you actually learn in class.