How can you become a good fighter if self-defense is your goal?

[drop bear]

You have to realize: he's the epitome of the person I doscussed in my post: someone with such high goalposts only a professional could reach them.

Keep striving for mediocrity.

 

[drop bear]

My thought is....who cares. I don't give a damm about how good a fighter I am or what I can do against someone else. Majority of people are the same. They don't care about getting in fights and are just doing it for health or social reasons. You have your reasons for training and that your entitled to them just as everyone else is entitled to theirs

Then why jump on a self defense thread to tell people you don't train self defense?

Go start a pursuit of happiness thread.

 

[Headhunter]

Then why jump on a self defense thread to tell people you don't train self defense?

Go start a pursuit of happiness thread.

Because I wanted to

 

[drop bear]

Because I wanted to

So like those guys who always turn up to a self defense thread with their buy a gun commentary.

 

[Headhunter]

So like those guys who always turn up to a self defense thread with their buy a gun commentary.

Sure whatever you say

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think that's the honest answer for most of us. As @Steve mentioned, actual fighting ability is one of the least important skills in self-defense. Before that are situational awareness and conflict resolution/verbal deescalation.

I see this in a different light. One of things I say often about fighting is "The more I learn about fighting and how to fight, the less it's about fighting."

I guess what I'm saying is that Fighting Skills is not 1 or 2 things you learn to do like a punch or kicks. There's a lot more to it than that. There's a combination of things that actually make up Fighting Skills. Many of the things that help build fighting skills is also useful in other parts of your life and not just fighting. Just knowing how to punch and kick is not enough as we have seen many times in videos.

We could teach situational awareness for driving all day long without ever driving. However, that student who drives and practices his situation awareness in a car (similar to sparring), will be better at situational awareness than the student who is only getting lip via lecture and reading. Fighting, self-defense, and everything else in the world is just like this. Sparring is practice for fighting and self-defense. It utilizes more than just physical violence to produce an outcome.

I can't learn how to swim unless I get in the water and try to use what I'm being taught.
I can't learn how to use situational awareness while driving in a car unless I get in the car to drive.
I can't learn how to fight using the skills I'm being taught unless I spar. Granted I can wildly swing my arms and kick in a mad fury and that would be considering fighting, But it wouldn't be considered best practices for self-defense or for effective fighting.
I can't learn how to use self-defense situational awareness unless I practice and train it in a real environment. Before I had my conflict with the school that I taught at, I had a program develop where the class will go out to the mall and practice being aware of things that we covered in class, again similar to sparring but practicing a different skill set.

If I had to give training a "percentage of things," I would say 10% of the skill sets are dedicated to either fighting or self-defense. It's like switching out a 10% cartridge. I would say 90% of fighting and self--defense training have nothing to do with actually fighting. But it's that 90% of things that that you do that really allow a person to get the most out of the the 10% of the actual action that you have to take. I also believe that the 90% stuff works nearly equally across the board regardless of what system a person trains. Get in that as much of the 90% as possible the better the 10% will be

 

[JowGaWolf]

So like those guys who always turn up to a self defense thread with their buy a gun commentary.

Recently saw a horrible video 2 weeks ago of a person fighting over a shotgun. A staff technique and drill instantly came to mind. Part of my staff training was to fight over the staff and that's when I learned that the staff techniques can be used for close range to. Had the victim known this, then it may have been a solution to his situation and it may have kept him from being shot 3 times with a shot gun. This would have definitely been better than the option that he took which was to hold onto the shot gun with one hand while punching with the other. Not sure why he thought his punches were strong enough to make the other guy drop the shotgun.

I guess the punching thing goes back to the idea that some people think they have deadly punches or that the human body is so fragile that a punch will do the job. The situation didn't end well for the victim. Lots of things I would have done differently in his situation long before fighting over a gun becomes a scenario. But maybe that's just my experience from my youth and doing things I wasn't supposed to be doing back then, having influence on options that I see vs options that other's don't see.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fighting Skills is not 1 or 2 things you learn to do like a punch or kicks. There's a lot more to it than that.

Agree!

How to:

- knock on your opponent's door.
- open his door.
- take advantage on his response.
- linear attack -> circular attack.
- circular attack -> linear attack.
- move from wrist gate to elbow gate, then to shoulder gate.
- ...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree!

How to:

- knock on your opponent's door.
- open his door.
- take advantage on his response.
- linear attack -> circular attack.
- circular attack -> linear attack.
- move from wrist gate to elbow gate, then to shoulder gate.
- ...

I was thinking more along the lines of observational awareness like knowing if the person is standing out of my punching range or standing within his punching range. If move back does he follow or does he stand his ground. lol, but what you stated is also true. If a person doesn't understand circular attack vs linear attack then he or she will have trouble defending against it. I've seen professional MMA fighters get knocked out by a basic circular attack. When the attack came, their brain didn't register it as something dangerous because their brain was used to seeing linear. Like this guy here. While not the best structural circular punch, it shows how it's like his brain doesn't know what to do with the punch so he's just like a deer in a headlights. I spent a lot of "non-fighting and non-sparring" moments just trying to understand what I'm doing in the form and how the punch actually works and why it works. Lucky for the guy in the red shorts this guy didn't know how to connect his power to the punch. Structurally when someone throws this punch with full intent and understanding, that punch would have already been on the other side of his face by the time the body twists like that. But even in this picture we can see the bow stance forming similar to like the video of me punching the tennis ball.

But back to what you stated. Yep 100% correct all of those are correct especially this one, - move from wrist gate to elbow gate, then to shoulder gate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree! You can only get a small group of people who are willing to take that path.

Even if those guys didn't want to fight competitively, then the worst thing that they will get out of their training is knowing how to use what they train and be in great shape.

 

[skribs]

Because stepping into the ring offers what "they want to do". Just because you are in the ring doesn't mean you have to pound each other into pain. There's aspects to sparring that aren't about punching, kicking, and grappling. For example, being able to ready body movement, using footwork, setting up a combination. All of that aren't physical attacks. But it helps people pull off the physical attacks. Learning how to correctly read body movement in the ring can be applied to self-defense and mental health. Being in the ring often provides a way for a person to learn how to manage their fears and adrenaline.

Most people think that sparring only offers bruises and pain and that's just not true. I had a student who used to tell me that he only trains Martial arts for health. He said this for 5 years whenever asked if he wanted to spar. On the 6th year he tried it. He was shocked and told me that he thought we would beat him up and hit him really hard. I simply asked him. "why would I do that? that's not what you want from sparring" That day he learned how to cover himself. He got a chance to deal with someone resisting his attempts to attack, and he got a change to defend himself against someone who was trying to hit him. He experienced that all without me blasting punching and trying hurt him.

The other thing he mentioned was that it took more cardio and physical effort than the thought, and that it was a good exercise. As a teacher, I didn't change my focus of sparring which is to teach students how to fight. What changed was his perception of sparring and doing that type of training.

When I hear the phrase "step into the ring", I'm not thinking of a sparring session. I'm thinking of a bout. If someone says "let's step in the ring" to me, I'm thinking they got a beef with me and want to hash it out. Or maybe they don't think I'm a good fighter and want to show me they're a better fighter. I wouldn't think of it as "let's go into a friendly light contact sparring match".

You don't need to, but you can.

Just because you can, doesn't mean people want to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When I hear the phrase "step into the ring", I'm not thinking of a sparring session. I'm thinking of a bout. If someone says "let's step in the ring" to me, I'm thinking they got a beef with me and want to hash it out.

I guess that's where the confusion lies. Thanks for sharing for me "Step into the ring" is simply a challenging but serious test of skills. It's not a beat down. But it's where the games and excuses like "I can't" or I'm not good enough" stop.

Sparring for me has always been friendly regardless of how intense I go. With sparring, there is a level of trust that has to be there. i don't spar with enemy or people I can't trust. It's not something that everyone gets to do with me. Sparring is training and there has to be a level of safety entrusted.

I would never spar with someone who has beef with me. That makes no sense to me and I know I get that perspective as a teen and adult dealing with the streets. I would never give the same care to someone who I had beef with or who has beef with me. The last time I officially had beef with someone, I was 14 and I almost walked out of the house with a knife with the expectation that I would need it in the fight that I thought I would be in. But I put my big boy pants on and talked to the guy who was looking for me and we both discovered someone lied on me. So when someone says they have beef with me, just know at that point I'm going to abandon all concern with the person I'm about to fight or think I will fight.

Oh correction, the last time someone officially had beef with me, was in my 30's when a street thug tried to gather some people to jump me at night after work. I had something for him too and it wasn't a left or right hook either. That's what beef means to me. I wouldn't spar with that dude either.

I guess it's like weapon training, would you really want to do weapon training with someone who has beef with you. For me fighting or talking is for hashing out beef. Sparring is for training. With sparring there has to some form of respect. Or you can will always wonder if sparring session will end up like this.

Or maybe they don't think I'm a good fighter and want to show me they're a better fighter.

This can go either way. There are many ways to show you are a better fighter than someone else that doesn't result in knocking someone's head off. This also doesn't mean that person has beef or mal intent. Sometimes when you get stuff like this, the person just wants to test there skills against someone who they think they are on the same skill level with. This is different than the Challenge fights from off the streets.

Just because you can, doesn't mean people want to.

It also doesn't mean that they won't like once they try it. You will be surprised what people like once they get over their incorrect perspective of what's involved. People hear boxing and MMA and think that it's all about punching and getting punched everyday.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My experience has been that it's either taught for self defense, sport, or both. I think self defense is a common application schools will profess.

I was talking about the last sentence, about not encouraging students to test their skills beyond the school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Look at combative programes as the basics and easy to learn skills. For self defence combatives, add in the non physical skills to that. and then look at other martial arts as the more complex and niche skills and the skills that require you to actually think to perform rather than what you can pull off under adreline or absed around that.

That sounds like you've bought into the marketing behind those "combatives" courses. From what I've seen, their movements are not any simpler than most other martial arts' approach. They may have fewer, and may lack the traditional drills (which are also not present in some other systems), but they're not inherently simpler. And any MA trained extensively actually moves beyond conscious thought for most folks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think this is true both ways. And if I had a student of mine that wanted to compete in MMA, I'd make sure he's aware of that and would be prepared to take the training necessary before jumping into the cage.

And I wouldn't even try to tell him I could teach him those skills. I would be confident that what I've taught him should give him a good jumping off point when he goes to classes more suited for MMA (that the training wouldn't be completely foreign to him).

Agreed. I've taught wrestlers, but they were already wrestlers, just looking for a different approach to the concepts. I would never suggest to someone that my training would be sufficient preparation for any specific competition, if they're looking to win. Folks who train specifically for that competition should always have an advantage there, training specifically for the context.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I also always say that those skilled in mma can certainly use those skills in self defense. I think it’s a silly argument that some people make that competitors can’t defend themselves on the street, that habits built on the rules of competition would leave them vulnerable in self defense. There may be a nugget of truth in that on the theoretical level, but it is far from insurmountable and for most people it would barely even be noticed. Those same skills can translate into self defense. But I think it becomes an emotional argument where people kind of get blinded and want to claim exclusive ownership to some realm of combat training. Mma people get competition, TMA people get self defense and street fighting, and the two shall not mix. But that is a silly position to take. These are skills that can overlap and translate and be applied in either direction.

Yeah, it's a common trope in the self-defense groups. Instructors often talk down about competition as if somehow the rules make basic fightings skills not work in another context. I see it sometimes when I go back to my old school, and it still boggles my mind.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

ive said before, im not a great fan of scenario training, it tends to be a very distorted reality so much that its no more '' real'' than ring fighting commonly a lot less( fat suits anybody)

the only substantial difference is you may very well start from a disadvantage, as the other guy getting to pick the moment time and mode of the attack, someone coming at you head on shouting the odds, is fine ( are fairly common), theirs little defence if someone smashes your head into the wall whilst your having a wee, no amount training other than training your bladder will help with that one,

multiple attackers are impossible to quantify or train for no matter what scenario you choose to run, there are only two defences, run faster than them or knock them over faster than they can reach you, you cant run scenarios for either as you dont know how fast they can run nor can you practice knocking them out/over, unless your actually going to knock them out, which means you run out of willing volunteers very quickly

Scenario training is just a chance to try some stuff out, really. If I think I can use my fantastic jab to keep a knife away if their arms are shorter, then that's a scenario I ought to play with. It's really just a way to introduce more variation, so skills can be generalized with more information (rather than by pure assumption). I don't like to spend a lot of time on them, except when I just want a new "game" to play - scenarios are just new rulesets to fight under.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Forgive me if this video breaks the rules. I'm hoping that this one would be an exception since its more like a informative video about what it is and what it's like. Which is probably out of business now thanks to Covid.-19

Listen to what this persons says about her first experience and what they taught with the fitness boxing. With the exception of freaking lights on and off, They did bag work, cardio, and weights.

The kung fu school that I used to go to had a kung fu fitness class in the beginner years. It was popular. People thought it was actually just a fitness class, but it wasn't. They were actually being taught basic kung fu techniques and the class had more cardio and a better workout than the actual kung fu classes. Other than that, the only big difference is that they learned less kung fu and the instructor wasn't hard on them with perfection. 2 of the women who used to do that classes actually transition into kung fu classes and then sparring. These two were totally against kung fu. They didn't care about it and they didn't like all of the form practice. But none of that matter as long as they were getting a good work out doing the forms. The same 2 people also participated in my Thursday sparring class and they loved it. One talked a bunch of junk too. Not sure where she got that from but she had fun punching other people, doing the drills, shadow boxing. working of foot work. I have yet to have anyone try my sparring class and walk away saying that they didn't like it. Beginner, intermediate, Advanced level. they all enjoyed and felt good that they didn't die when they took punches. Part of training was conditioning where we would punch and kick each other and we had to take it. The only rule was to only give what the other person could take. After a few months they were excited that their bodies harden which made it possible to take harder strikes.

I never had anyone complain and say that it was abusive and I never had anyone say they didn't like the hitting. On the other hand I have had people leave because we didn't do enough sparring. Point is I think you would be pleasantly surprised once people get of the idea that their body is somehow going to explode or that they are going to walk away with black eyes every time they spar. That's like the worst selling point to be telling people about sparring.

Both of the women made the statement that they should have tried earlier but were afraid that they were going to get knocked out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If I think I can use my fantastic jab to keep a knife away if their arms are shorter, then that's a scenario I ought to play with.

I don't like to play with any particular scenario. I let my guys to use plastic dagger to fight. Any body cut will end that round. Test for 15 rounds, and get the final result.

You either let your students to know the reality, or let them to believe that their MA skill is good enough to handle a knife without proper testing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't like to play with any particular scenario. I let my guys to use plastic dagger to fight. Any body cut will end that round. Test for 15 rounds, and get the final result.

You either let your students to know the reality, or let them to believe that their MA skill is good enough to handle a knife without proper testing.

That's a scenario, in my book. They can get more specific ("What if the guy is holding the knife backhand?"), but they don't have to ("What if there's a knife?").