How can you become a good fighter if self-defense is your goal?

[skribs]

I also always say that those skilled in mma can certainly use those skills in self defense. I think it’s a silly argument that some people make that competitors can’t defend themselves on the street, that habits built on the rules of competition would leave them vulnerable in self defense. There may be a nugget of truth in that on the theoretical level, but it is far from insurmountable and for most people it would barely even be noticed. Those same skills can translate into self defense. But I think it becomes an emotional argument where people kind of get blinded and want to claim exclusive ownership to some realm of combat training. Mma people get competition, TMA people get self defense and street fighting, and the two shall not mix. But that is a silly position to take. These are skills that can overlap and translate and be applied in either direction.

I say the thing you say not to say, but with a caveat. I just think that if an MMA fighter wants to practice for self-defense, they sometimes need to at least sit down and think (if not outright drill) scenarios that would make sense in self-defense. For example, a lot of wrestling and BJJ fighters should be able to control the arm of a knife-wielding attacker. However, if they haven't thought about how to apply their techniques in that situation before-hand, then they'll be figuring it out as they go. I'd much rather make a silly mistake against a friend holding a rubber knife than against an actual mugger trying to stab me with a switchblade.

Any situation that occurs outside of MMA, for example multiple attackers, fighting on hard surfaces like concrete, weapons, illegal techniques, etc. are all things that you won't be exposed to in most sport gyms. Things like protecting your friends and family. I don't think you need to devote a lot of training time to think about this stuff. Just that if self-defense is a goal, then these should be on your mind at some point. As should other things like de-escalation and awareness.

With all that said, if an MMA fighter determines that they'd rather focus 100% on competition, and then hope that those scenarios never play out (or that they can figure it out if they do), then more power to them. Competition is their goal, I shouldn't distract them from that. However, that's only if they're honest with themselves about making the decision for competition sake, instead of making fun of people who do train that other stuff. It might be a waste of time for them and their goals, but it's not a waste of time for someone else.

 

[jobo]

I say the thing you say not to say, but with a caveat. I just think that if an MMA fighter wants to practice for self-defense, they sometimes need to at least sit down and think (if not outright drill) scenarios that would make sense in self-defense. For example, a lot of wrestling and BJJ fighters should be able to control the arm of a knife-wielding attacker. However, if they haven't thought about how to apply their techniques in that situation before-hand, then they'll be figuring it out as they go. I'd much rather make a silly mistake against a friend holding a rubber knife than against an actual mugger trying to stab me with a switchblade.

Any situation that occurs outside of MMA, for example multiple attackers, fighting on hard surfaces like concrete, weapons, illegal techniques, etc. are all things that you won't be exposed to in most sport gyms. Things like protecting your friends and family. I don't think you need to devote a lot of training time to think about this stuff. Just that if self-defense is a goal, then these should be on your mind at some point. As should other things like de-escalation and awareness.

With all that said, if an MMA fighter determines that they'd rather focus 100% on competition, and then hope that those scenarios never play out (or that they can figure it out if they do), then more power to them. Competition is their goal, I shouldn't distract them from that. However, that's only if they're honest with themselves about making the decision for competition sake, instead of making fun of people who do train that other stuff. It might be a waste of time for them and their goals, but it's not a waste of time for someone else.

ive said before, im not a great fan of scenario training, it tends to be a very distorted reality so much that its no more '' real'' than ring fighting commonly a lot less( fat suits anybody)

the only substantial difference is you may very well start from a disadvantage, as the other guy getting to pick the moment time and mode of the attack, someone coming at you head on shouting the odds, is fine ( are fairly common), theirs little defence if someone smashes your head into the wall whilst your having a wee, no amount training other than training your bladder will help with that one,

multiple attackers are impossible to quantify or train for no matter what scenario you choose to run, there are only two defences, run faster than them or knock them over faster than they can reach you, you cant run scenarios for either as you dont know how fast they can run nor can you practice knocking them out/over, unless your actually going to knock them out, which means you run out of willing volunteers very quickly

 

[Flying Crane]

I say the thing you say not to say, but with a caveat. I just think that if an MMA fighter wants to practice for self-defense, they sometimes need to at least sit down and think (if not outright drill) scenarios that would make sense in self-defense. For example, a lot of wrestling and BJJ fighters should be able to control the arm of a knife-wielding attacker. However, if they haven't thought about how to apply their techniques in that situation before-hand, then they'll be figuring it out as they go. I'd much rather make a silly mistake against a friend holding a rubber knife than against an actual mugger trying to stab me with a switchblade.

Any situation that occurs outside of MMA, for example multiple attackers, fighting on hard surfaces like concrete, weapons, illegal techniques, etc. are all things that you won't be exposed to in most sport gyms. Things like protecting your friends and family. I don't think you need to devote a lot of training time to think about this stuff. Just that if self-defense is a goal, then these should be on your mind at some point. As should other things like de-escalation and awareness.

With all that said, if an MMA fighter determines that they'd rather focus 100% on competition, and then hope that those scenarios never play out (or that they can figure it out if they do), then more power to them. Competition is their goal, I shouldn't distract them from that. However, that's only if they're honest with themselves about making the decision for competition sake, instead of making fun of people who do train that other stuff. It might be a waste of time for them and their goals, but it's not a waste of time for someone else.

I think any time someone is in an environment or venue in which they do not typically spend their energy and effort, they would do better if they had spent at least some time previously thinking about it and working on how to adapt the physical skills.

But let’s be honest about it, mma folks are training regularly to fight against other people, and they physically interact in working to land effective strikes on people who are trying to evade those strikes, and to grapple with people who are battling against them. I think there is very little adaptation required to effectively use those skills in a self defense situation or a fight on the street. Might they forget to poke the eyes? Maybe, but they probably won’t need to do it anyways. Might they get surrounded and stomped by their attacker's three buddies if they get too wrapped up in a ground grapple? Sure, but It’s a safe bet that a TMA person training specifically for self defense would not survive being attacked by four determined assailants either. Might a mma grappler get cut by broken glass on the street if he takes the fight to the ground? Sure, but a TMA guy can also go down and get cut too.

I really believe that on average, an mma person would adapt to a self defense situation more readily and with fewer glitches than a TMA person would adapt to an mma competition, assuming neither of them worked extensively to adapt prior.

 

[skribs]

I think any time someone is in an environment or venue in which they do not typically spend their energy and effort, they would do better if they had spent at least some time previously thinking about it and working on how to adapt the physical skills.
...
I really believe that on average, an mma person would adapt to a self defense situation more readily and with fewer glitches than a TMA person would adapt to an mma competition, assuming neither of them worked extensively to adapt prior.

I agree with your opening and closing statements. It's the middle part I don't 100% agree with..

But let’s be honest about it, mma folks are training regularly to fight against other people, and they physically interact in working to land effective strikes on people who are trying to evade those strikes, and to grapple with people who are battling against them. I think there is very little adaptation required to effectively use those skills in a self defense situation or a fight on the street. Might they forget to poke the eyes? Maybe, but they probably won’t need to do it anyways.

I'm not talking about using eye pokes and other illegal techniques, but defending against them. I've heard a lot of MMA guys on here equate an eye poke to a punch. But there's a lot more ways you can poke the eyes that don't have the same setup as a punch.

Might they get surrounded and stomped by their attacker's three buddies if they get too wrapped up in a ground grapple? Sure, but It’s a safe bet that a TMA person training specifically for self defense would not survive being attacked by four determined assailants either. Might a mma grappler get cut by broken glass on the street if he takes the fight to the ground? Sure, but a TMA guy can also go down and get cut too.

In Hapkido, we train our throws, take-downs, and submissions mostly with the intent of remaining standing. This is different from what a wrestler or a BJJ fighter would train, since they want to go down with their opponent and control them on the ground. This solves both problems of being stuck on the ground when there's another fighter, and going to the ground and rolling around in glass.

Do the other attackers still have the advantage? Yes. Might you still get taken down onto that glass? Yes. But at least we're trying to stay standing and ready. Instead of just saying "well, even if I trained that way, I'd probably fail anyway."

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with your opening and closing statements. It's the middle part I don't 100% agree with..



I'm not talking about using eye pokes and other illegal techniques, but defending against them. I've heard a lot of MMA guys on here equate an eye poke to a punch. But there's a lot more ways you can poke the eyes that don't have the same setup as a punch.



In Hapkido, we train our throws, take-downs, and submissions mostly with the intent of remaining standing. This is different from what a wrestler or a BJJ fighter would train, since they want to go down with their opponent and control them on the ground. This solves both problems of being stuck on the ground when there's another fighter, and going to the ground and rolling around in glass.

Do the other attackers still have the advantage? Yes. Might you still get taken down onto that glass? Yes. But at least we're trying to stay standing and ready. Instead of just saying "well, even if I trained that way, I'd probably fail anyway."

Fair enough, it’s a different point of view. I think there are valid points each way. I think one of the traps of this particular topic is in believing (even unintentionally) that all factors are present in all situations. So yes, this or that factor could change the outcome in any situation. But those factors are not always present and often don’t matter. So no matter how true something is, there are examples against it, and vice-versa.

There is no ultimate correct answer for this. Like most things in life, it depends.

 

[skribs]

I think there are valid points each way.

This is my biggest point. All martial arts have holes in their training. There are three responses to the holes in your martial art:

1. Accept them and decide it's not worth your time to train
2. Recognize them and cross-train to fill them
3. Reject them, rationalize why those ideas are stupid and tell everyone who trains those how stupid they are

Two of those are healthy options.

 

[jobo]

I agree with your opening and closing statements. It's the middle part I don't 100% agree with..



I'm not talking about using eye pokes and other illegal techniques, but defending against them. I've heard a lot of MMA guys on here equate an eye poke to a punch. But there's a lot more ways you can poke the eyes that don't have the same setup as a punch.



In Hapkido, we train our throws, take-downs, and submissions mostly with the intent of remaining standing. This is different from what a wrestler or a BJJ fighter would train, since they want to go down with their opponent and control them on the ground. This solves both problems of being stuck on the ground when there's another fighter, and going to the ground and rolling around in glass.

Do the other attackers still have the advantage? Yes. Might you still get taken down onto that glass? Yes. But at least we're trying to stay standing and ready. Instead of just saying "well, even if I trained that way, I'd probably fail anyway."

ambush attacks are rare unless robbery is the motive or there has been some previous conflict and they have picked their moment, random strangers dont general walk up and poke you in the eye for no reason, some things escalate very quickly, but not that quickly you dont know that there is a bone of contention or at least some level of animosity nor is an eye poke the likely first choice of attackers who have first go, a head but is far more likely if you up close, i know from experience, that if someone taps you on the shoulder in a night club, dont turn round to see who it is, that was an ambush attack, i had no idea hat was his wife id just been kissing

the idea that fighters are so immersed in their style that they cant improvise if the situation demands is silly, boxer can kick bbj chaps can punch you a karate guys can bite your ear

 

[skribs]

the idea that fighters are so immersed in their style that they cant improvise if the situation demands is silly, boxer can kick bbj chaps can punch you a karate guys can bite your ear

It's not silly. I see it time and time again on the forums. Even from MMA guys who train different arts, they're locked into only training what works in the cage and ignore everything else.

It's an idea born of observation, most of it on this site.

 

[jobo]

It's not silly. I see it time and time again on the forums. Even from MMA guys who train different arts, they're locked into only training what works in the cage and ignore everything else.

It's an idea born of observation, most of it on this site.

so if ive ever been kicked by a boxer that shows your talking rot ?

or is it some generalisation your intent on pushing that wrestlers cant punch people ??????

 

[JowGaWolf]

Today in China, people train MA only for self-defense and health. Even if they may have trained MA to the highest level, since they don't have real combat experience, if you ask them to step into a ring, it will be a totally suicide.

You may be the best of the best in China, but when you test your skill in the global level, you will find out that you are nobody.

When you teach your students, you tell them that they should train MA for self-defense and health. You don't encourage your students to test their MA skill against people from other MA systems.

How can you become a good fighter (a person who can handle himself in the ring) if your goal is only self-defense and health?

Your thought?

My thoughts on this is that people are to narrow minded when they say "train for self-defense and health". Most people who say that probably only train the mental health of Martial arts and not the physical aspects of fighting. Get into a ring and do some sparring against someone who spars often and person will know without a doubt just how bad or how good their cardio is. A person's weakness in balance, agility, reaction time, awareness, footwork, and strength will all be highlighted during sparring. Engage in grappling and another set of weakness will be highlighted.

Many martial artists talk about "complete health" and often forget about the physical part of it. My personal opinion is that ALL MARTIAL ARTS SHOULD BE TRAINED IN THE CONTEXT OF FIGHTING. This is the best training for mind and body because it's a complete package. Training this way doesn't mean a person will be a thug. A person can train this way and still be all about Zen or all about Performance Baton twirling. What a person does after the training is up to the person. But because of the training they will be healthier both mentally and physically.

What I don't get about some Chinese Martial Arts is how a "martial arts Master" will abandon his kung fu and train MMA. If he trains Kung Fu like he trains MMA then theoretically he should be able to pull off the techniques. How many times have we seen MMA fighters pull off and knock people out with a Traditional Martial arts technique. They still don't get it. It's not the technique that's the problem it's the Training.

"Training for Health" is not separate from "Training for Fighting" it's a part of it and a very good part of it.

 

[Headhunter]

My thoughts on this is that people are to narrow minded when they say "train for self-defense and health". Most people who say that probably only train the mental health of Martial arts and not the physical aspects of fighting. Get into a ring and do some sparring against someone who spars often and person will know without a doubt just how bad or how good their cardio is. A person's weakness in balance, agility, reaction time, awareness, footwork, and strength will all be highlighted during sparring. Engage in grappling and another set of weakness will be highlighted.

Many martial artists talk about "complete health" and often forget about the physical part of it. My personal opinion is that ALL MARTIAL ARTS SHOULD BE TRAINED IN THE CONTEXT OF FIGHTING. This is the best training for mind and body because it's a complete package. Training this way doesn't mean a person will be a thug. A person can train this way and still be all about Zen or all about Performance Baton twirling. What a person does after the training is up to the person. But because of the training they will be healthier both mentally and physically.

What I don't get about some Chinese Martial Arts is how a "martial arts Master" will abandon his kung fu and train MMA. If he trains Kung Fu like he trains MMA then theoretically he should be able to pull off the techniques. How many times have we seen MMA fighters pull off and knock people out with a Traditional Martial arts technique. They still don't get it. It's not the technique that's the problem it's the Training.

"Training for Health" is not separate from "Training for Fighting" it's a part of it and a very good part of it.

Why should they have to step in a ring if that's not what they want to do? Some people can't risk going into work with black eyes and bruises. You don't need to step in a ring to get fit. You can do pad work, bag work, shadow boxing all of which builds fitness.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Learning to fight is like the least useful thing to know if your goal is to be safe.

This is the example of the mistake that many people make. Learning to fight doesn't have to be separate from self defense or being safe. You can do both and reap the benefits of both. It doesn't have to be Either OR.

This is not 2 separate images. It is one. One color is training to fight and the other color is training that isn't about fighting but technique and mental wellness. There's no rule in Martial Arts that doesn't say you can't include self-defense training as part of the aspect of fighting.

An example, run self-self defense scenario of avoiding being cornered. Say on this day you screwed up made the wrong choice (because self-defense is not mistake free) and now you have to fight your way out of the corner or be more physical to prevent a bad situation from getting worse. Both requires more physical effort than "just avoiding."

People make the assumption that Learning how to fight only teaches a person how to fight. Learning to fight teaches more than just fighting. It helps you learn how to read people's body movements which you really can't learn without sparring. I find it strange that people who train self-defense only are always telling stories of how they had to fight their way out of a bad situation where people who actually train to fight rarely have those type of stories about fighting their way out of a bad situation.

Most people take that image above and separate it into 2 pieces and think that their training is complete.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is my biggest point. All martial arts have holes in their training. There are three responses to the holes in your martial art:

1. Accept them and decide it's not worth your time to train
2. Recognize them and cross-train to fill them
3. Reject them, rationalize why those ideas are stupid and tell everyone who trains those how stupid they are

Two of those are healthy options.

I understand the point you are making but I’m going to suggest an alternate way of looking at it.

I believe that the notion of a martial art being “complete” (as opposed to having holes in it) is an artificial designation that really only means as much as an individual wants it to mean. Furthermore, I feel that it is often used by people who want to claim that “what you do must include what I do, or it lacks value/merit/ “completeness” etc.” and perhaps even “what I do is worth more than what you do so you definitely need to do what I do, or you’ve got nothing”.

To all of that I say nonsense.

I fundamentally disagree with that notion and with the notion of “completeness” in a martial art.

A martial art includes a fundamental approach to combat and contains a body of techniques, principles, and ideas that support the development of skills consistent with that fundamental approach. If that is what one is interested in, then that is what they study. If they are interested in a different approach, then they study something else. Some people study more than one method, with varying degrees of success.

I see it as similar to someone choosing a direction in the college/university level of education. If physics is what you are interested in, then that is what you study. But for someone to claim that you are somehow “incomplete” as an educated person or as a scientist because you have not also earned a degree in geology, is a silly claim. And I know, some people get multiple degrees and that gives them additional specialized knowledge, but that does not justify trying to label someone as “incomplete”.

So we study and we train in what we are interested in. What we are interested in follows a methodology. I don’t see a lot of benefit in dissecting it beyond that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why should they have to step in a ring if that's not what they want to do?

Because stepping into the ring offers what "they want to do". Just because you are in the ring doesn't mean you have to pound each other into pain. There's aspects to sparring that aren't about punching, kicking, and grappling. For example, being able to ready body movement, using footwork, setting up a combination. All of that aren't physical attacks. But it helps people pull off the physical attacks. Learning how to correctly read body movement in the ring can be applied to self-defense and mental health. Being in the ring often provides a way for a person to learn how to manage their fears and adrenaline.

Most people think that sparring only offers bruises and pain and that's just not true. I had a student who used to tell me that he only trains Martial arts for health. He said this for 5 years whenever asked if he wanted to spar. On the 6th year he tried it. He was shocked and told me that he thought we would beat him up and hit him really hard. I simply asked him. "why would I do that? that's not what you want from sparring" That day he learned how to cover himself. He got a chance to deal with someone resisting his attempts to attack, and he got a change to defend himself against someone who was trying to hit him. He experienced that all without me blasting punching and trying hurt him.

The other thing he mentioned was that it took more cardio and physical effort than the thought, and that it was a good exercise. As a teacher, I didn't change my focus of sparring which is to teach students how to fight. What changed was his perception of sparring and doing that type of training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the definition of a "good fighter"?

You have strong

1. defense skill - you can block, dodge punches and kicks.
2. offense skill - you have knock/take down skill.

In order to test both 1 and 2, you have to get in the ring and step on the mat. IMO, only partner drill is not enough here.

I truly don't know how to develop fighting skill without going through the sport path. I have not seen any MA person who can handle himself in the ring or on the mat without going through the sport path.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You don't need to step in a ring to get fit.

You don't need to, but you can. And you can do it without getting a black eye and without having tons of bruises.

Some people can't risk going into work with black eyes and bruises.

Again. This this is an assumption that this is guaranteed to happen and it isn't. Sparring doesn't automatically mean you are going to get a black eye. People think. Oh my god it's sparring, I better not do that because I'll get a black eye. Out of all the years that I've been in martial arts, sparring, and in fights. I only had one black eye and that was during a non sparring application drill where I was trying to figure out how to use a technique and I ran into my training partners fist.

While some people bruise really bad, most people do not break out in the purple and blue abuse bruises. I have been bruised and students were bruised and very few of us had severe discoloration. We all had tender spots that were painful when touched, but it wasn't an unbearable pain. It was the type of pain that one get when they realize that their body isn't as fragile and that the pain isn't as bad as they imagined. It wasn't to the point that you didn't want to experience the pain ever again.

If you spar against someone that can't control their punches well or against a jerk, then yes you are going to get pounded really good. But that doesn't ways have to be the case and in my classes, that was rarely the case. There were only 3 or 4 students who wanted to fight at that intensity and I was always trying to calm them down and lower the intensity so they could actually learn how to use kung fu.

 

[Flying Crane]

Because stepping into the ring offers what "they want to do". Just because you are in the ring doesn't mean you have to pound each other into pain. There's aspects to sparring that aren't about punching, kicking, and grappling. For example, being able to ready body movement, using footwork, setting up a combination. All of that aren't physical attacks. But it helps people pull off the physical attacks. Learning how to correctly read body movement in the ring can be applied to self-defense and mental health. Being in the ring often provides a way for a person to learn how to manage their fears and adrenaline.

Most people think that sparring only offers bruises and pain and that's just not true. I had a student who used to tell me that he only trains Martial arts for health. He said this for 5 years whenever asked if he wanted to spar. On the 6th year he tried it. He was shocked and told me that he thought we would beat him up and hit him really hard. I simply asked him. "why would I do that? that's not what you want from sparring" That day he learned how to cover himself. He got a chance to deal with someone resisting his attempts to attack, and he got a change to defend himself against someone who was trying to hit him. He experienced that all without me blasting punching and trying hurt him.

The other thing he mentioned was that it took more cardio and physical effort than the thought, and that it was a good exercise. As a teacher, I didn't change my focus of sparring which is to teach students how to fight. What changed was his perception of sparring and doing that type of training.

What you describe here in my opinion is not “stepping into the ring”. Rather, it is interactive contact training within a teaching environment. Stepping into the ring suggests competition, and often that is further described a “full-contact”. Often that description goes hand-in-hand with the notion that people either need to enter competitions or they need to make an effort to visit other schools and try out their skills against everyone out there. In that context, @Headhunter is correct, not everyone wants that, and doesn’t need to do that in order to have value in their training.

But in a more structured instructional context that is aimed at helping someone learn and is not concerned with winning the match, then you are correct.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

not everyone wants that, ...

Agree! You can only get a small group of people who are willing to take that path.

 

[drop bear]

are you really suggesting that people should take up a high risk and badly paid and in this country at least mostly wet and freezing cold ,second job in order to ground their sd skills ? that seems a bit above and beyond

Yes.

Look up nietzsche

 

[drop bear]

Learning to fight is like the least useful thing to know if your goal is to be safe. But if you want to learn to fight, you should train in a style where you fight.

Yeah. Learn to be rich and then move. But being able to fight still empowers people.

But there are also circumstances that are not my circumstances. School is an interesting one. Where you are potentially locked in with your attackers. And trying to be affluent first world adult about these things isn't the best response.