How much can one Master?

[Mark Lynn]

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.

Jason Brinn

To be honest I think it is the will to fight and defend yourself that matters more so than techniques.

I'm sure we all have read stories about the 80 year old marine (notice I didn't say former marine ) who defeated the would be robber, or the 10 year old kid who fought off the attempted kidnapper, the woman who beat back the rapist, etc. etc. Sometimes the people have training sometimes they don't and they still win (survive). This is why I thought your first question was valid, and this seems a bit watered down.

People without training can defend themselves and not have mastered anything in the process to executing the defense. Perhaps they had the stronger will to fight that day, perhaps the assailant had been to long without a mark and was weak from lack of food or their drug of choice, who knows. Perhaps it was wrong time and wrong place and help was nearby to ward off the attacker.

There was a blind man who taught self defense (I think on the east coast) who I would say mastered the chin jab (as taught in the old military combatives programs) (I think he lost his sight in service to our country). I believe if you grabbed the guy then he could turn the tables on you. The simple act of executing the chin jab for him was infinitely more complex than for those of us with site. He had to learn a different set of skills to make up for his lack of sight and yet he still could execute that technique well enough to defend himself. So much so that he developed a self defense course and he became a authority on the subject. How can we begin to quantify the skills, concepts, techniques, that he had to learn to create his own self defense program coming from a person who is blind. And yet if a person was out of reach holding a gun, or a knife, he was at a serious disadvantage and his training program didn't work. I MEAN NO DISRESPECT TO THE BLIND INSTRUCTOR NOR HIS STUDENTS, I'M TRYING TO MAKE A POINT ONLY.

So I believe you can master techniques that can be executed in real life and yet at the same time on the training hall floor.

 

[MJS]

Good day,

I love MA. I love training MA for fun, friendship and fitness. I also study mostly for self defense. I have always thought that an ultimate goal is to master what one studies. If this is true to you as well, how many concepts/techniques do you think one could master realistically?


Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.


Jason Brinn

Hi Jason,

I think may have already said alot of what I was thinking. In a nutshell...it depends. How much does each person train? What are their goals? What do they want to get out of their training? Someone who shows up to class a min. of 3 times a week, if not more and really busts their ***, taking the training serious, vs. someone who shows up once, doesnt have any dedication, etc, well, the comparision should be obvious.

I've been doing Kenpo for 26yrs, and I dont consider myself a Master. I've been doing Arnis for well over 10yrs, and again, I dont consider myself a Master. Thing is, there's so much in each art, I take it all in, but I digest it in small pieces. I'll take things ranging from the most basic, all the way to the most advanced, and spend time working those smaller things, experimenting, looking to see what I can find.

I remember a while back, I asked my Arnis inst. what else there was to learn after Black. Material wise, he said nothing. I know the entire system of our organization. However, that doesnt mean the learning has stopped for me. I'll take certain things, work them, and see what else I can find. THAT, IMO, is what the next step should be, on the road to mastering something.

 

[MJS]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

I find it interesting when people always talk about the number of techs, as if knowing 1001 techs is somehow going to make you a better fighter vs. if you only knew 10. Let me say this: A person can know 1001 techs, but if they suck at them, if they cna't make them work, then knowing anohter 1001 isn't going to matter. Why? Because that person will still suck! LMAO!

IMHO, the techs are nothing more than ideas, a platform for people to build from. They're nothing more than ideas. If we really look at a bunch of techs, we'll most likely see alot of the same concepts. I would always stress to the people I'd teach, to not get so bound by all the techs in the system. If you understand the basics, the principles, and concepts the art is teaching, you should be able to adapt on the fly.

A story that I like to tell, that helps explain my point. One day, during a class, I had the group form a big circle. I'd have 1 student in the center, and randomly have the others attack, with an attack of my choice. There was a fairly new student in the center, and I gave them an attack that I knew was more advanced. They stood there, and said that they didn't know a tech for that attack yet. I asked them if they knew how to block, punch, move, and kick? They said yes. I said "Good, then lemme see it!"

My point of that wasn't to make them feel bad, it was to make them think! I knew damn well they didn't know a pre-set tech for that attack, but I wanted to see what they'd do. All techs are, is a collection of the basics....the various punches, kicks, blocks, moves, etc, all put together in a certain way. Its just like a boxer doing focus mitt drills. They train a variety of combos on the pads, but in the ring, they pull out the combos that best suit the situation at that time.

I don't want my students to be a bunch of technique collectors, all acting like robots, bound by a preset series of moves. I want them to think outside the box.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hi Jason,

I think may have already said alot of what I was thinking. In a nutshell...it depends. How much does each person train? What are their goals? What do they want to get out of their training? Someone who shows up to class a min. of 3 times a week, if not more and really busts their ***, taking the training serious, vs. someone who shows up once, doesnt have any dedication, etc, well, the comparision should be obvious.

I've been doing Kenpo for 26yrs, and I dont consider myself a Master. I've been doing Arnis for well over 10yrs, and again, I dont consider myself a Master. Thing is, there's so much in each art, I take it all in, but I digest it in small pieces. I'll take things ranging from the most basic, all the way to the most advanced, and spend time working those smaller things, experimenting, looking to see what I can find.

I remember a while back, I asked my Arnis inst. what else there was to learn after Black. Material wise, he said nothing. I know the entire system of our organization. However, that doesnt mean the learning has stopped for me. I'll take certain things, work them, and see what else I can find. THAT, IMO, is what the next step should be, on the road to mastering something.

MJS

While you might not feel you are a master, I imagine there are some elements of your arts you have mastered. Per Webster's definition in the noun form 3) one (who is) highly skilled and in the verb form 1) subdue or 2) become proficient in.

Somehow I think we as martial artists tend to short change our skills and tend to shy away from acknowledging our skills because we see how much there is to learn. When in fact I believe it should humble us and drive us to the point of exploration in confidence that we have a leg to stand on. I guess what I mean is if you work on a technique (skill, concept whatever) and can apply it in many different circumstances under pressure and not. Or you can teach it and impart knowledge of the technique to others so that they too become proficient at the same technique, I believe according to Webster's you have mastered that technique. If they (the person you taught) or someone else comes up with a new (to you) application of that technique it doesn't mean that you have any less skill or any less mastery of the technique. If because I see something new, that I hadn't learned, if it all of the sudden shakes my confidence in my abilities than I would say that I haven't mastered anything much less myself. However if I take that technique and analyze it, apply it, really get into it and understand it and chose to either add it to my current knowledge base or choose to discard it doesn't make me any less of a master of a technique or not.

After 26 years in the MA I'm sure you have seen some very high skilled practitioners of the arts is there not one who you believed mastered anything?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

It depends on the person and the style

For some it is 3 others 23

To be able to defend yourself with taijiquan you really only need to understand the 13 postures, 8 gates and 5 steppings

 

[Flying Crane]

I am quite certain that the answer is "42"

 

[rickster]

Well, so much for what I thought was a simple question. Let me rephrase it and take out the word that I think is confusing what I am talking about.

How many techiques/concepts do you feel a person can become proficienct enough in to actually perform in a real life self defense situation as needed.


Thanks again for the previous posts and any future ones!


Jason Brinn

Two main types;

Avoid

Run

 

[monk64]

I loved this show when I was a kid.

I didn't care for it then...but I loved watching it on MST3K :ultracool

 

[MJS]

MJS

While you might not feel you are a master, I imagine there are some elements of your arts you have mastered. Per Webster's definition in the noun form 3) one (who is) highly skilled and in the verb form 1) subdue or 2) become proficient in.

Somehow I think we as martial artists tend to short change our skills and tend to shy away from acknowledging our skills because we see how much there is to learn. When in fact I believe it should humble us and drive us to the point of exploration in confidence that we have a leg to stand on. I guess what I mean is if you work on a technique (skill, concept whatever) and can apply it in many different circumstances under pressure and not. Or you can teach it and impart knowledge of the technique to others so that they too become proficient at the same technique, I believe according to Webster's you have mastered that technique. If they (the person you taught) or someone else comes up with a new (to you) application of that technique it doesn't mean that you have any less skill or any less mastery of the technique. If because I see something new, that I hadn't learned, if it all of the sudden shakes my confidence in my abilities than I would say that I haven't mastered anything much less myself. However if I take that technique and analyze it, apply it, really get into it and understand it and chose to either add it to my current knowledge base or choose to discard it doesn't make me any less of a master of a technique or not.

After 26 years in the MA I'm sure you have seen some very high skilled practitioners of the arts is there not one who you believed mastered anything?

Hey Mark,

Sorry for the delayed reply man. Hopefully you'll see this. To answer your question...sure, there are things that I've trained that I consider my 'bread and butter' moves/techniques, things that I have worked many, many times, and that I feel very comfortable with, and have a good percentage of pulling off. So yes, there are things that I've probably mastered. As for a full system...well, no, I wouldn't go that far with myself.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I would consider master to be a person who maintains complete and utter control over whatever it is he or she is doing. Can one master a technique? Yes. Can one master a concept? Yes. A person can be a master of martial arts wihtout mastering everything there is to know about martial arts. I don't know how many skills or principles a person would have to be very profiecient in for me ot consider him a master, but I know he can't just be a one trick pony.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Hey Mark,

Sorry for the delayed reply man. Hopefully you'll see this.

Sorry for my delay in reading your response

To answer your question...sure, there are things that I've trained that I consider my 'bread and butter' moves/techniques, things that I have worked many, many times, and that I feel very comfortable with, and have a good percentage of pulling off. So yes, there are things that I've probably mastered.

As do I

As for a full system...well, no, I wouldn't go that far with myself.

Totally agree, nor would I say that I have totally mastered a system either.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I would consider master to be a person who maintains complete and utter control over whatever it is he or she is doing.

If a person has complete and utter control of themselves in whatever they are doing, than I would consider them to be a grandmaster, a GM of life.

Can one master a technique? Yes. Can one master a concept? Yes. A person can be a master of martial arts wihtout mastering everything there is to know about martial arts.

I agree with you here

I don't know how many skills or principles a person would have to be very profiecient in for me ot consider him a master, but I know he can't just be a one trick pony.

Would you define skills or principles here? I mean can the person be a master of one thing and not be a "one trick pony"? Say the bo, or the sai, or say grappling, bench target shooting, bow and arrow, combat pistol shooting, painting, flower arranging, tea ceremony etc. etc. Each of these has many different skills sets and principles contained in them.

I believe personally that a person can be a master of one thing and not be just considered a "one trick pony".

 

[takadadojokeith]

It's generally accepted that you need 10,000 hours of practice to master anything. How many principles, strategies or techniques that expertise would encompass depends on the art.

 

[rickster]

It's generally accepted that you need 10,000 hours of practice to master anything. How many principles, strategies or techniques that expertise would encompass depends on the art.

That depends on the practitioner

 

[lma]

First, there are degrees of mastery. But, I tend to agree with the idea that it takes about 1000 hours of practice to develop expertise in most things. So, in BJJ, a person who trains 5 days per week for 2 hours each day will reach mastery faster than a guy who trains 3 days per week for 2 hours per day. Quality of training is also important. In other words, the guy who's fit and athletic will be focusing on BJJ while someone who isn't fit or athletic might spend the first 4 months of training focusing on fitness and not on BJJ.

I'm also a fan of Bloom's Taxonomy of learning. So, as you commit your 1000 hours of study to developing expertise, you will move through six distinct stages.

Knowledge - The instructor tells me what something is. I can then tell someone else what my instructor said. That's knowledge.

Comprehension - Think keyboard warrior. I have an intellectual understanding, but I don't yet have the practical understanding. I can describe or explain, but I'm not necessarily able to "do".

Application - I can now apply techniques. I can do a keylock. I can apply an armbar. I can sweep my opponent. I can also demonstrate application to beginners. This is where 1st Dan black belt sits for most martial arts and purple belt is for BJJ.

Analysis - I am now chaining techniques together and seeing larger patterns of behavior. I am using strategy and focusing on higher concepts. I'm experimenting with technique and questioning the assumptions I've been taught, and I can at this point drill into the exceptions to rules. I'd say this is where 2nd or maybe 3rd Dan black belt sits with most martial arts, and about where a high level brown belt or possibly a new black belt is for BJJ.

Synthesis - Much of what I'm doing is second nature at this point. I am innovating and creating, and teaching others, sharing my expertise.

Evaluation - This is the point where someone has complete mastery, both over the techniques and concepts, but also the tacit understanding that only comes with experience. This is where someone can legitimately begin assessing strengths and weaknesses of a system and begin making fundamental improvements. Not many people get here. In BJJ, we're talking about people like De La Riva, Saulo Ribiero, and the like.

So, to answer your question... it depends.

This is best way I've ever heard it explained. Thanks

 

[takadadojokeith]

That depends on the practitioner

If you mean that not everyone is an expert after 10,000 hrs of practice, that's true. But you can't gain real expertise without that minimum threshold. I've seen it cited in studies of many different skills (art, music, chess, etc.) For research a little more related to martial arts, I'd suggest checking out the book "Dveloping Sports Expertise" edited by Damian Farrow and others.

 

[Balrog]

Call yourself a master and all learning stops

I disagree with that. An instructor teaches students. A master teaches instructors. There's always something new to learn.

 

[Aiki Lee]

I get the meaning behind Xue's statement though. Often people who refer to themselves as "master" or make there students call them that are pretty egotistical. When someone's that egotistical they feel they know everything worth knowing and tend not to listen. That's my experience with that anyway.

 

[rickster]

I get the meaning behind Xue's statement though. Often people who refer to themselves as "master" or make there students call them that are pretty egotistical. When someone's that egotistical they feel they know everything worth knowing and tend not to listen. That's my experience with that anyway.

Now, there are those seeking the title Soke in place of Master

 

[gogyo33]

http://entertainment.wikia.com/wiki/Best_of_DC_Database

If you have 10 years of your life to devote (without the nagging time-draining activities of school and/or work)..and billions of dollars to hire the best teachers for 24/7 private lessons...127 martial art styles!

Bruce Wayne (AKA The Batman) did this, from Aikido to Yaw Yan...