How can you become a good fighter if self-defense is your goal?

[dvcochran]

I've actually offered at least three different, objective studies that could be done to get at some real information. No one seems to want to fund me, though. Maybe if I start a gofundme page.

But, being serious, can you point me to an example of a self defense program that teaches average people that you think is effective, is not competition oriented? Would be interesting to take a look at what it is, and break down what you see and why you think it is effective.

Not in the confines I think you are referring to for the purely layperson. There are the job/roll specific classes but they can also get a bad rap if done poorly, from either the teacher or student. It is never a 'do this once and you have it' type of thing. If someone is presenting this way then yes, it is a total hack job. I have always experienced it as a component part, usually of a MA. I have never seen it presented or presented it any other way.

 

[dvcochran]

I've been giving self defense training every benefit of the doubt. My comments regarding self defense training presume that it is exceptionally well designed and delivered.

Edit. Just to be clear, there are all kinds of training programs that teach skills commonly associated with self defense that are great. They are just taught by people with experience to people who will use those skills in some way. So, teaching fighting skills to a fighter works great. Teaching cops to be better cops. But I don't classify that as self defense training.

When I think about self defense training, I apply the "middle aged elementary school teacher" test. Is the middle aged elementary school teacher going to apply the skills ever? Will this middle aged elementary school teacher ever be an expert? Will this middle aged elementary school teacher ever be competent to teach someone else these skills?

The answer to the above questions for self defense training is no, even if the training is excellent.

I would say this is most often true even in the more common environment of a MA program. There is a high percentage of people who never get proficient by some standards. However, they are still better in several dimensions than had they never worked out. I very much agree with @jobo on the raw fitness element having value. Perfect? No but better than nothing.
I do not think it is realistic to think Everyone will get to an 'ultimate fighter' level. Even the ultimate fighter is going to get pummeled soon or later so how do you scale that?
I would go so far as to say it isn't even always up to the person. Person A can become proficient in X amount of time. Person B will Never get to Person A's level no matter how much they train and workout. But they are still better for their effort.

I am hazarding a guess that this may fall into the idea of it for you.
I Love to see someone's switch come on when they are pressure training. They have been shown over and over and drilled a skill over and over and just never got it. Then something in them triggers and they 'get it'. A beautiful thing but I have no clue how you harvest this. If I could I would be a bazillionaire.

 

[Steve]

Not in the confines I think you are referring to for the purely layperson. There are the job/roll specific classes but they can also get a bad rap if done poorly, from either the teacher or student. It is never a 'do this once and you have it' type of thing. If someone is presenting this way then yes, it is a total hack job. I have always experienced it as a component part, usually of a MA. I have never seen it presented or presented it any other way.

That's fair. So, can you share an example of an MA or school that effectively teaches self defense to a lay person?

 

[jobo]

I think when I say, middle aged elementary school teacher, we can all create a mental image of what that suggests.

well its clear you have but it seems to be based on a massive amount of stereotyping and discrimination

im friends with a middle elementary teacher,, she 61 now, ive know her from her wild biker chick days, now slightly more refined with the lsd, (i did seemed to spend a big chunk of the 80s stoned on her couch), she still shoots round on a harley, and mountain bikes and badminton's to a comp level.

im wondering why you think she couldn't attempt a robst defence with some training, i saw her drop BIG nigel with a right cross back in the day for touching her up

her husband, also an elementary teacher is huge and plays senior rugby, are you ruling him as well

 

[jobo]

Champion fighters still receive training.

well there not experts then, hard to be really with brain damage

 

[drop bear]

True enough. So you go out and test EVERY program and get back to us. I look forward to reading your report. Oh, and make sure and provide a cover of the intimately detailed guidelines used to weigh and measure each statistical category.

Well no. The whole point of that is I only have to test good schools and can leave the bad ones alone.

I mean you don't go test every hypothesis in the hope it works. Otherwise it wouldn't be every self defense school. It would be every school that exists. How do we know that interpretive dance or speaking French isn't the best course for learning self defense?

Well we do know because there is no evidence that speaking French assists in self defense.

 

[jobo]

Well no. The whole point of that is I only have to test good schools and can leave the bad ones alone.

I mean you don't go test every hypothesis in the hope it works. Otherwise it wouldn't be every self defense school. It would be every school that exists. How do we know that interpretive dance or speaking French isn't the best course for learning self defense?

Well we do know because there is no evidence that speaking French assists in self defense.

it assists greatly in France

 

[drop bear]

well there not experts then, hard to be really with brain damage

You kind of can't just insert your own reality and call it an argument.

There is a fairly consistent definition of subject matter expert.

And an invented case of brain damage isn't part of that.

 

[drop bear]

its assists greatly in France

So does interpretive dance. But i am not in France.

 

[drop bear]

I Love to see someone's switch come on when they are pressure training. They have been shown over and over and drilled a skill over and over and just never got it. Then something in them triggers and they 'get it'. A beautiful thing but I have no clue how you harvest this. If I could I would be a bazillionaire.

Look up kit dale.

 

[jobo]

You kind of can't just insert your own reality and call it an argument.

There is a fairly consistent definition of subject matter expert.

And an invented case of brain damage isn't part of that.

i didn't invent fighter getting brain damage, that was god

clearly if they have someone to teach them than that person is the expert not them

 

[jobo]

So does interpretive dance. But i am not in France.

but this is an international forum and there are many millions of french speakers in the world, quite possibly even in Australia.

you said it doesnt help for self defence, which is wrong you didn't say it doesn't help DB,

 

[drop bear]

but this is an international forum and there are many millions of french speakers in the world, quite possibly even in Australia.

you said it doesnt help for self defence, which is wrong you didn't say it doesn't help DB,

Who speaks French on this forum? And who has it benefited from a self defense perspective?

 

[drop bear]

i didn't invent fighter getting brain damage, that was god

clearly if they have someone to teach them than that person is the expert not them

You are confusing expert with omniscient.

 

[jobo]

Who speaks French on this forum? And who has it benefited from a self defense perspective?

well anyone who could understand hand over your wallet or il stab you in french has derived immense befit

 

[jobo]

You are confusing expert with omniscient.

clearly your confusing expert with brain damaged chugger

 

[dvcochran]

That's fair. So, can you share an example of an MA or school that effectively teaches self defense to a lay person?

I would have to say most schools I have been to. I used to travel a Lot for work and would go to a class every chance I had. Did not really care about what style. I do think it is more school/instructor specific rather than style.
It has a lot to do with how the material is presented I think. In job specific training (when I was a LEO) there were always guys there who could care less about the training and were just there because they had to be to satisfy in service requirements. Most of these guys already had 'their own ways' of dealing with resistance. Some good, some bad.
I don't think it would be apropos to start naming specific schools but I will say there are some very good ones in Nashville.