Credentialing

[Gerry Seymour]

no your right, just buy the belt isn't enough, you have to have a ceremony do a lot of bowing and present it to yourself along with a certificate you knocked up on Microsoft word, then your good to go

Yep, that was the point.

 

[TSDTexan]

That is something that is very true ...we all can differentiate but to the layman Karate is the one all know as it was probably the first one to be promoted and advertised in the "west"

I said before that it would be interesting in getting and advertising pros opinion on this as it may differ from what those who are already students of the arts

I have no teaching quals ...i don't really seek to teach (although I have to a few private friends and I did do self defense classes to some women when I was pushed to it didn't last as well they were looking for the secrets skills to defeat anything ...that another story though lol) as my ranks are not high enough and I have not graded in years as that is not what interests me now ...but that said if I did decide to teach then I would be looking at doing targeted marketing doing market research and the basic business start up things. Even to the etent of looking at the area and surrounding areas are there any special conditions ie is there a high violence rate and crime rate and who is it predominantly against and there by possibly gearing any advertising to that area ...Personally I would not emphasize my rankings but in the dojo or hall if it were mine they would be there to view (not as a ego boost) but just to show that I do have them (that is assuming that the potential students can read Japanese lol)

If I was teaching a pure art to people then I would personally mention the lineage but more than likely not on any flyers they have to be what grabs the initial interest. I also try an get in there that there will be a demo for those to come and see and to make sure that it not all dan ranks that are taking part as that to me can give a false sense to any beginner I like another post said would offer a short intro class to not only give students a taste but also to get the feel of the class (again that class I would make sure that it did have different grades within it so not are all "experts" (loose term) ...I would at some point go full on and let the students see the art at full speed and force so they could then judge better and that would not be at a demo but at a class (to me a demo is like a flyer has to be eye catching to spur interest and as those that have turned up are interested it has to be fueled so it gotta be flashy not the mundane or the over technical) After the first short class I would look for feedback from the group

advertising to me has to be eye catching and draw the eye not contain to much detail but enough to spark the initial contact ...but never forget the free advertising that is word of mouth and if at a dojo or a hall a simple sign outside can do wonders

All just my random thoughts though

Judo had been on the scene in the west, prior to WW2... and there were a few promoter/advocates of it. prior to WW2, karate made it to Hawaii... but not so much on the mainland of the usa.

GIs and Marines were the driving force that brought Karate to the West.

At lot of schools were very small, but steady growth. But KungFu Cinema Superstars like Bruce Lee made Asian Martial Arts a superhot commodity.

Judo became a footnote and the meteoric rise of striking arts took hold of the pop culture psyche.
Kungfu, and karate were what Americans called anything Asian that was punched and kicks.

Even TKD suffered decades of explaining "no we are not karate" to Americans in the west. But a great many practicing TSD folks just rolled with calling it korean karate.

And it gets better.... in Okinawa, some Karate bigwigs called Bruce Lee "a highly skilled, dangerous karateka".... which raises a question, or a few.

Is our western view that categorizes, labels, subdivided, actually missing something?

If you ask someone... "What is your art?" In a lot of Korean arts, you often hear a textbook answer recited. The same question is asked during Gup belt tests. Its not much different in a lot of other Asian martial arts.

But almost all... are Mudo, or Budo training... which is at its core very holistic and multidisciplinary in nature.

Historically, a budoka is expected to learn, become proficient and eventually master many combat arts. Archery, swordsmanship, hand to hand, horseback combat, spear/staff fighting. And remain invested in learning any new forms of warfare that become the new M.O. of war.

In essence, the pursuit of study to become well versed in warfare (all means, and all methods) is the art. That is the historical budo... over time, lot of philosophy was blended in.... which further localized budo into a specific culture.

 

[TSDTexan]

Agreed. In fact, I think consumers are likely more swayed by number of years than a rank (or lack thereof). My rank within my curriculum is just "black belt", and I am a Senior Instructor. But "Seymour has been studying and training martial arts since 1982" is far more influential to most prospective students. Hell, I still react more to that than a rank, when I hear some of the MT folks talking about their training back in the '70's.

get off my lawn!

 

[dvcochran]

I missed this thread when you started it, and haven't read any of the replies yet, so forgive me if I'm rehashing points.

I'll use my primary art, because this has been a point of discussion there for years. Within the NGAA (the largest organization, by an order of magnitude), there are technically 6 dan ranks, though only 5 have ever been used (head of style is currently treated as "outside the ranks", and will probably promote his successor to 6th). Since most arts instructors have taught around are closer to what you describe with TKD, there's long been a perceived issue. Average time to BB in NGAA is about 7 years - I took about 12. Most chief instructors are 2nd degree (last technical degree - all others are honorary), and most open schools with 1st degree (which also serves as instructor certification in the NGAA). From time to time, instructors petition the head of the NGAA to extend ranks to 10 dans (he did cave in and add the 6th a few decades ago, but never used it). Some of those who've left the organization have changed to a 10-dan system, though without actually fixing the issue for their students (they don't seem to change the qualifications for 1st and 2nd - just add more honorary ranks and promote each other to higher levels).

I've never been bothered by it. Most of my time was spent training under 2nd dans, so when I created my own curriculum and structure, I just got rid of dan ranks. Ranks end at black belt. After that, I have two levels of instructor certification (instructor and senior instructor, the latter having the ability to certify instructors). I wear two stripes (stripes mark those instructor levels), and most in NGA think of that as "2nd dan", which is fine, because that's the closest match. Probably students would see it that way to, but I've never had anyone ask about rank, nor comment on it, except to ask how ranks work in the style. Heck, part of the time I'm wearing hakama, so you can't even see my stripes, and when I train at an NGAA school, I wear no stripes, at all (the equivalent in my structure of a BB student, not instructor).

You are touching on why I have never been worried about ranking higher with the Kukkiwon. It just doesn't mean what it should, and certainly not what it did 20 years ago. Honestly, I value my MDK rank more.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You are touching on why I have never been worried about ranking higher with the Kukkiwon. It just doesn't mean what it should, and certainly not what it did 20 years ago. Honestly, I value my MDK rank more.

I'm not sure what it "should" mean.

 

[skribs]

This is largely true, except where they may know the name of a specific art or two (I often get asked if I teach BJJ, even after they've watched part of a class, proving they know the name but have no idea what BJJ actually is).

Or how many people call it a "judo chop" when judo doesn't really focus on strikes.

 

[TSDTexan]

Or how many people call it a "judo chop" when judo doesn't really focus on strikes.

yeah.... funny that. except that atemi was very much a focus of the real judo. Shame that the Judo art has its name dragged through the mud, by people who have ruined the beautiful art. Kinda like how judo used to have incredible leg grabs.

 

[TSDTexan]

You are touching on why I have never been worried about ranking higher with the Kukkiwon. It just doesn't mean what it should, and certainly not what it did 20 years ago. Honestly, I value my MDK rank more.

I would say..."as well you should" but I don't want to offend anyone of the TKD set. Especially my TKD friends here. So I guess I won't.

Like hell I won't...

 

[JR 137]

Or how many people call it a "judo chop" when judo doesn't really focus on strikes.

Thank Austin Powers for that one.

But yeah, Judo has atemi waza, as shown by TSDTexan’s video.

 

[GreatSayiaman]

When it Comes to Muay Thai in the Traditional most Authentic there is really no Ranking in terms of a Traditional Belt system, However I learned in Thailand all fighters get a Praciat showing that you are one of the Pros of the Art and Sport, A Praciat is similar in terms to a good luck charm and In reality that is it. I do know some Muay Thai Gyms within the US do their own Ranking system, However my Kru/Coach does not do a Ranking system as his Previous Kru does not do one either.

BTW that is my Kru/Coach in the Video I'm showing

 

[dvcochran]

I'm not sure what it "should" mean.

It is a subjective point. Hard to reconcile is the excitement and passion I had in my 20's and 30's with my more seasoned and experienced self. The drive for self accomplishment is still there but the need for a visual goal isn't as necessary. So "should" likely stems from a mild feeling that, despite their best intentions, Kukkiwon belting isn't respected as highly as it once was. Maybe it is simply the volume of Kukkiwon belters out there. The sheer numbers creates some mediocrity.
As for attaining a BB, the value should never be tarnished. It is truly what you make it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a subjective point. Hard to reconcile is the excitement and passion I had in my 20's and 30's with my more seasoned and experienced self. The drive for self accomplishment is still there but the need for a visual goal isn't as necessary. So "should" likely stems from a mild feeling that, despite their best intentions, Kukkiwon belting isn't respected as highly as it once was. Maybe it is simply the volume of Kukkiwon belters out there. The sheer numbers creates some mediocrity.
As for attaining a BB, the value should never be tarnished. It is truly what you make it.

It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.

 

[dvcochran]

It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.

Very, very good point.

 

[oftheherd1]

Judo had been on the scene in the west, prior to WW2... and there were a few promoter/advocates of it. prior to WW2, karate made it to Hawaii... but not so much on the mainland of the usa.

GIs and Marines were the driving force that brought Karate to the West.

At lot of schools were very small, but steady growth. But KungFu Cinema Superstars like Bruce Lee made Asian Martial Arts a superhot commodity.

Judo became a footnote and the meteoric rise of striking arts took hold of the pop culture psyche.
Kungfu, and karate were what Americans called anything Asian that was punched and kicks.

Even TKD suffered decades of explaining "no we are not karate" to Americans in the west. But a great many practicing TSD folks just rolled with calling it korean karate.

And it gets better.... in Okinawa, some Karate bigwigs called Bruce Lee "a highly skilled, dangerous karateka".... which raises a question, or a few.

Is our western view that categorizes, labels, subdivided, actually missing something?

If you ask someone... "What is your art?" In a lot of Korean arts, you often hear a textbook answer recited. The same question is asked during Gup belt tests. Its not much different in a lot of other Asian martial arts.

But almost all... are Mudo, or Budo training... which is at its core very holistic and multidisciplinary in nature.

Historically, a budoka is expected to learn, become proficient and eventually master many combat arts. Archery, swordsmanship, hand to hand, horseback combat, spear/staff fighting. And remain invested in learning any new forms of warfare that become the new M.O. of war.

In essence, the pursuit of study to become well versed in warfare (all means, and all methods) is the art. That is the historical budo... over time, lot of philosophy was blended in.... which further localized budo into a specific culture.

When I studied under Mr Rhee, that was how we usually described it; "It's like a Korean karate." People just didn't know much about martial arts back then. But of course they 'knew' that a black belt had to register his hands as a deadly weapon with the local police; and that if someone told you they studied Karate just to scare you the first thing to look at was to see if the had callouses on their knuckles; a real give-away. The unusually well informed would usually know that black belts were experts who could kill with just one blow. Oh, and a karate guy could not attack you without shouting "karate" three times or he could go to jail.

Ah, the mystery we have lost.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Very, very good point.

I just love clicking “agree” on comments like that.

 

[JR 137]

It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.

The less experienced you are, and probably the younger you are, the higher that pedestal is IMO.

 

[TSDTexan]

It may also be that with more experience, you see the mediocrity more clearly. I know that 20 years ago I was more impressed with new BB in NGA than I am now with seasoned ones. I don't think the quality has gone down (and certainly not to that extent), but my awareness has gone up.

Do you mean there are places that give the BB based on lower standards, than what should be used? How sinful. When I was a rowdy teen, and a lowly green belt I smashed a fair number of BBs at tournaments.

My master really didn't want me to enter said tournaments, so I had an alternate uniform and belt. So many schools turn out a BB student that cannot fight.

This sickens my soul.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you mean there are places that give the BB based on lower standards, than what should be used? How sinful. When I was a rowdy teen, and a lowly green belt I smashed a fair number of BBs at tournaments.

My master really didn't want me to enter said tournaments, so I had an alternate uniform and belt. So many schools turn out a BB student that cannot fight.

This sickens my soul.

I'm not sure what you mean by "lower...than what should be". I'm not sure what the standards "should be". If I entered a Karate tournament and got beat by a non-BB in Kyokushin, I wouldn't be amazed (though I might be a bit embarrassed). If I got beat by a non-BB in TKD, I'd be both amazed and embarrassed. I don't think that says anything all that interesting about my BB, nor the BB from either of those styles. The BB just means something different in each of the styles in question.

 

[JR 137]

I'm not sure what you mean by "lower...than what should be". I'm not sure what the standards "should be". If I entered a Karate tournament and got beat by a non-BB in Kyokushin, I wouldn't be amazed (though I might be a bit embarrassed). If I got beat by a non-BB in TKD, I'd be both amazed and embarrassed. I don't think that says anything all that interesting about my BB, nor the BB from either of those styles. The BB just means something different in each of the styles in question.

And that black belt means different things to different people within a school, let alone an entire organization. I currently train with and have previously trained with black belts of varying physical skill and abilities. I’ve been around black belts who ‘weren’t very good’ who progressed significantly from day one, worked their butts off to get where they are, had significant physical limitations, etc. I currently and previously trained with people who had a ton of talent and a solid work ethic who held the same and/or lower rank than the other group.

Rank is an individual thing. Sure their can be standards, but they’re minimum standards and not maximum standards when applied.

If rank always equals ability, that means that every 3rd dan can beat every 2nd dan and lower every time; every 2nd dan would have to beat every 1st dan and lower, etc. Impossible, even for the highest regarded and praised ranking standards. If BJJ is the good standard in ranking (I think it’s about as close to a gold standard as I’ve seen), even they’re not close to truly attaining the impossible task of every higher rank beating every lower rank.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm not sure what you mean by "lower...than what should be". I'm not sure what the standards "should be". If I entered a Karate tournament and got beat by a non-BB in Kyokushin, I wouldn't be amazed (though I might be a bit embarrassed). If I got beat by a non-BB in TKD, I'd be both amazed and embarrassed. I don't think that says anything all that interesting about my BB, nor the BB from either of those styles. The BB just means something different in each of the styles in question.

Lower standards than practical and effective... such as poor and sloppy technique. vs Smooth refined polished technique that shows a high attention to detail burned into muscle memory.

let's say there are two Shodan, and they are testing for Nidan. one performs all the testing and when demonstrating his forms from kyu through shodan.... he executes with a mindless grace that shows he has spent thousands of hours drilling and polishing his technique. He is in peak condition.
and he could actually land his stuff in a self defense encounter. He isn't just prepared. He is ready.

The other guy demonstrates a basic proficiency.... but it looks like he is under a huge amount of mental and physical stress, and looks just gassed out from effort. And he is only half way into his test.
In the end... he completes his test... but there is an uncertainty, or uneasiness about him.
He is a cookie cutter BB.