Credentialing

[drop bear]

Ours is easy. I just look them up on fight matrix.

 

[hoshin1600]

Ranks and credentials are are nice recognition to receive from your group to acknowledge your dedication and hard work.
It is not a good way to choose a school or instructor. People who lack skill tend to push their rank out front and center to hide their shortcomings. If the person has skills.....well... everyone knows it, they don't need to advertise their 15th degree grand poobah rank.

 

[oldwarrior]

Any rank or grade is only as good as the body awarding it

It has been known for people to go online and ummm order a scroll all made out in proper writing etc ...so yes anyone pushing the rank at the fore front is on an ego trip ...is hiding something or has maybe not actually got it in the first place ...

It may be not that easy for a newcomer to tell that the person that teaching not quite the real deal as it were ...yes folks that do study will tell but newcomers may not ...

As for grading etc possibly a way for a newcomer to check that out if he/she so wishes is to find out who actually awards the grades ...not the kyu grades but the Dan ranks as that may give some insight

Just as a random thought or two the Akikai scroll you get in a dan rank has a watermark on the back that I don't think has been faked yet but I could be wrong (it also numbered to lol) also it should be noted that it not just the Martial Arts of Japan that use rankings lol so does the tea ceremony and others lol ...so an instructor may be a shichidan or hachidan but it might be in flower arranging lol...sorry just my humour

 

[hoshin1600]

i think this is a non issue. credentials and rank are only important because people make it so.
so far the argument has been...

• you need it for marketing. well if that is how and where you focus your marketing, then you need to hire a marketing director. rank doesnt make sales. people make sales.
• how is someone supposed to judge your quality? reputation for starters. quality and skills speak for themselves. people do not sign a life time contract. they will go where they feel their needs are being met.
• new people will not know good from bad. maybe not at first. but given a short amount of time and exposure they will know. there is nothing wrong with signing up at a mcdojo. the people who want more will move on ...AND the people who like it stay for what ever their reasons are, they stay. DO NOT ASSUME THEY DONT ANY KNOW BETTER. they do.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

new people will not know good from bad. maybe not at first. but given a short amount of time and exposure they will know. there is nothing wrong with signing up at a mcdojo. the people who want more will move on ...AND the people who like it stay for what ever their reasons are, they stay. DO NOT ASSUME THEY DONT ANY KNOW BETTER. they do.

Most of the time. Generally people can figure out if what they're getting will "turn them into an unstoppable fighting machine" (a phrase I heard on here a while back), or if it won't. And they may continue anyway because they like the atmosphere, it gets them in shape, they enjoy it, etc. and don't care about fighting. BUT some people actually do believe what their learning will work, and that is why they're doing it, even if that's not the case. I wouldn't assume that, since my assumption is that is in the minority, but it does happen.

 

[skribs]

As for the "it's all karate to the layman" - I think that's at least 20 years out of date for the majority, and even fewer who go as far as to enquire are that uninformed.

Half of my Taekwondo students come in and tell me they're excited because it's karate class today.

It's like if was to go "Xerox something" on a Ricoh copier.

 

[pdg]

Half of my Taekwondo students come in and tell me they're excited because it's karate class today.

It's like if was to go "Xerox something" on a Ricoh copier.

Nobody Xeroxes anything here, ever. I've only heard the term used on imported TV. We photocopy stuff

Maybe we just didn't comply with the same level of marketing?

I would say it's maybe "it's all taekwon-do" here instead, but surely that would encompass the black suit too?

 

[hoshin1600]

Most of the time. Generally people can figure out if what they're getting will "turn them into an unstoppable fighting machine" (a phrase I heard on here a while back), or if it won't. And they may continue anyway because they like the atmosphere, it gets them in shape, they enjoy it, etc. and don't care about fighting. BUT some people actually do believe what their learning will work, and that is why they're doing it, even if that's not the case. I wouldn't assume that, since my assumption is that is in the minority, but it does happen.

i think my point is mostly overlooked. i consistently hear how beginners cant, but need to have the ability to differentiate between a mcdojo and a "real" dojo. this is based on an incorrect presupposition that the student doesnt want a mcdojo. i can tell you with out a doubt this is incorrect.
yes some students may sign up at a dojo that is sub par but it wouldnt take long to figure out that the art is not meeting their needs. these students will move on. it could take a day or it could take years. when they leave to move on is up to their own personal journey. if John Doe signs up at Bobs discount karate- fu jitsu school, he may be fully aware that there is a hard core MMA, Gracie Jiujitsu school right across the street but somewhere in his psyche he is not ready for that kind of training yet. maybe he never will be.

threads keep coming up about ranks and credentials and mcdojo's the focus is always on the teacher and the dojo, forgetting the primary factor is the student. somehow the assumption is made that the student is a constant in the equation. in sales there is a saying "there is a rear-end for every seat".
the little dirty secret in martial arts is that........most people do not want to pay the price for the results they are looking for. instead they settle for something they can cope with, something they can convince themselves with (and those around them) that they are on the path to the results they want. it is self delusion, and from a certain psychological perspective its not always a bad thing.

we need to stop assuming people are idiot dolts and dont know any better. the truth is, in the end people end up right where they want to be.

 

[Buka]

Credentialing. Kind of apt word for the bs associated with Martial Arts.

 

[oftheherd1]

In the Hapkido I studied in Korea, one was supposed to be a 3rd Dan to teach in a school under the owner/master. One was supposed to be a 4th Dan to have one's own school. Everyone knew that rank in Hapkido was earned. So having those ranks meant you could do those things. Certification? Never heard of it. I also never met a bad teacher. I think that one may be a western creation, and it may have come from legal seminars.

It also wasn't done in the 60s to my knowledge. I never heard anyone question Mr. Rhee's qualifications to teach. You only had to see a few moves of his and you were convinced. He had the demeanor to teach effectively as well.

I guess those things don't count so much these days.

 

[skribs]

In the Hapkido I studied in Korea, one was supposed to be a 3rd Dan to teach in a school under the owner/master. One was supposed to be a 4th Dan to have one's own school. Everyone knew that rank in Hapkido was earned. So having those ranks meant you could do those things. Certification? Never heard of it. I also never met a bad teacher. I think that one may be a western creation, and it may have come from legal seminars.

It also wasn't done in the 60s to my knowledge. I never heard anyone question Mr. Rhee's qualifications to teach. You only had to see a few moves of his and you were convinced. He had the demeanor to teach effectively as well.

I guess those things don't count so much these days.

Your 3rd Dan is the certification, or 4th Dan.

We actually get a certificate at my school for each art we test in. I have certificates stating I am 4th Keub in Hapkido (orange belt) and 2nd Degree in Taekwondo (really 2nd Dan, 3rd Gup, but I'm pretty sure that the Dan rank is all another school will care about).

So if you have anything proving you are a 3rd degree, that is your certification in the art.

Although what I mean specifically about certifications for various locations is something like a school might require a certificate to prove you have the credentials you say you have if you want to open up a Hapkido class as an elective at the school.

 

[oftheherd1]

Your 3rd Dan is the certification, or 4th Dan.

We actually get a certificate at my school for each art we test in. I have certificates stating I am 4th Keub in Hapkido (orange belt) and 2nd Degree in Taekwondo (really 2nd Dan, 3rd Gup, but I'm pretty sure that the Dan rank is all another school will care about).

So if you have anything proving you are a 3rd degree, that is your certification in the art.

Although what I mean specifically about certifications for various locations is something like a school might require a certificate to prove you have the credentials you say you have if you want to open up a Hapkido class as an elective at the school.

Then I have totally misunderstood what you, and some others for that matter, meant by credentialing. I thought you meant something on the order of a separate training course of some sort, or purported set of training, that would then be used as proof of qualification to teach. I envisioned people wanting to use it when not yet belted in a school, or low belted and perhaps start a school. Apparently not what you really meant.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

At the end of the day, a certificate or qualification can only tell you so much about a person's credibility to teach. Even in sports where all coaches are required to have the same base certification, you get a huge variety in quality of teaching, as well as knowledge on the subject. I have seen people with the exact same qualifications as myself who were completely clueless about what they were doing. That's why when I am looking for a sports coach of any kind, I look at 2 things: How the coach conducts themselves during training, and how successful their students are in competition. How do you market it to the general public? Fairly easily if you have successful competitors, however if you either don't compete or have a bad record, it's very hard.

 

[Andrew Green]

That is something that is very true ...we all can differentiate but to the layman Karate is the one all know as it was probably the first one to be promoted and advertised in the "west"

I said before that it would be interesting in getting and advertising pros opinion on this as it may differ from what those who are already students of the arts

If you are advertising to people that don't even know the difference between the different types of martial arts, why would it make any sense to advertise ranks at all? Those are even more confusing.

Look at what any bigger school is doing, chances are they probably aren't including anything about ranks at all in their ads. Ads are about benefits to the prospect, not bragging about the accomplishments of the business owner.

If you are going to advertise accomplishments they should be the accomplishments of the people taking your program, not the person that created it. Before and after shots of people making big fitness gains. Testimonials of parents who's kids saw big gains in confidence and are no longer getting bullied.

Ranks are just imaginary points we collect within our own bubbles. They are not the accomplishments people care about when signing up

 

[dvcochran]

This is all a artificial problem. The only reason people care about ranks is that they have been told to care about ranks. Would you have the same sorts of issues in a dance school? A Yoga studio? A crossfire gym? Do you know your doctors educational history and GPA? How about your lawyers? When you go to a restaurant do you first ask where the chef studied culinary arts and to what level?

If you are advertising based on your credentials you are missing the mark completely. Advertising is about the person doing you are advertising too, not the person doing the advertising. People will care about what you can do for them more then how many stripes you have on your belt.

Your arguments are pretty broad. In the states at least, a medical doctor requires a bachelors degree, a minimum 3 years post graduate, and a minimum 2-3 years residency. So the certification is implied and competency hopefully secured through the process. If I go to McDonalds I do not give thought to the cook, the very name is a stretch there. If I go to a five star restaurant, I very much want to know about the chef.
Word of mouth and years of service are a much stronger barometer for me concerning MA instructors, dance, Yoga, etc...

 

[Jaeimseu]

In the Hapkido I studied in Korea, one was supposed to be a 3rd Dan to teach in a school under the owner/master. One was supposed to be a 4th Dan to have one's own school. Everyone knew that rank in Hapkido was earned. So having those ranks meant you could do those things. Certification? Never heard of it. I also never met a bad teacher. I think that one may be a western creation, and it may have come from legal seminars.

It also wasn't done in the 60s to my knowledge. I never heard anyone question Mr. Rhee's qualifications to teach. You only had to see a few moves of his and you were convinced. He had the demeanor to teach effectively as well.

I guess those things don't count so much these days.

In Korea you need a 4th dan to open a Taekwondo school, almost exclusively through Kukkiwon. I know there are a few ITF dojang, but those guys may have Kukkiwon certificates, as well.


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[Jaeimseu]

As far as marketing goes, I don’t think I even mention dan rank. I do mention my M. Ed on my website, though.


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[dvcochran]

In Korea you need a 4th dan to open a Taekwondo school, almost exclusively through Kukkiwon. I know there are a few ITF dojang, but those guys may have Kukkiwon certificates, as well.


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Somebody correct me if I am wrong. I have never heard of an ITF school affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong. I have never heard of an ITF school affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

I’m sure the schools aren’t associated with Kukkiwon, but there are instructors out there with other certification outside of Kukkiwon.


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[skribs]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong. I have never heard of an ITF school affiliated with the Kukkiwon.

People can be certified by different organizations. My Master and some of his older students are ranked in both KKW and ATA, and my Master has rank in multiple Hapkido organizations.

It's just like someone who might have a black belt in Karate, Taekwondo, and Judo.