How does that change if we use the term "grade"?
Credentialing
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
I am jumping in the middle of the conversation. This is very much where I was trying to go with my "common core" thread which was admittedly mis-titled. However, I would saying qualifying more that quantifying. If you quantify, is that the same as saying "it you do x move 10,000 times you are eligible to promote?
JR 137
Grandmaster
Iām jumping in in the middle of the discussion too. Regarding dan ranks and promotion due to a time table rather than a proficiency table, weāre talking about adults here, not kids, right? If an adult doesnāt promote to the next dan rank when his/her peers do, so what? Are adults really that fragile? Will they leave because they havenāt been promoted in quite some time? Iāve seen a few disgruntled yudansha who think they should be promoted to the next dan rank when itās obvious they donāt know their current material well enough yet. But in my experience those are the same ones thatāll complain about everything else too. And the higher in dan rank you get, the less and less of those people are around.
We had a guy at my previous dojo who took about 7 or 8 years to promote to shodan when the norm was 4-5. Why? Because he couldnāt remember a standardized thing to save his life. He definitely earned his shodan, as he finally met the standards. Then he started questioning why a group of guys tested for sandan (3rd dan) and passed, yet he was promoted to shodan before they were. Easy - he still botched his shodan kata and standardized stuff 6 years later. And he was botching kyu level stuff. He was a great guy and a good fighter, it he couldnāt meet all the standards, so he didnāt promote. One day he had a closed door meeting with our sensei. He aired his grievances, and my sensei stayed quiet and let him finish. My sensei simply told him ādo all your material without me having to correct you for 6 months straight, and youāll test.ā The shodan told me āI needed to hear that. I didnāt have a leg to stand on.ā He tested and passed 2 his nidan test years later. No idea what became of him, as I left that dojo.
At some point an adult needs to realize either shut up and train, or leave. Kids are different, as IMO their involvement in MA has a completely different purpose.
End of rant. Hopefully I didnāt misinterpret what was actually being discussed.
We had a guy at my previous dojo who took about 7 or 8 years to promote to shodan when the norm was 4-5. Why? Because he couldnāt remember a standardized thing to save his life. He definitely earned his shodan, as he finally met the standards. Then he started questioning why a group of guys tested for sandan (3rd dan) and passed, yet he was promoted to shodan before they were. Easy - he still botched his shodan kata and standardized stuff 6 years later. And he was botching kyu level stuff. He was a great guy and a good fighter, it he couldnāt meet all the standards, so he didnāt promote. One day he had a closed door meeting with our sensei. He aired his grievances, and my sensei stayed quiet and let him finish. My sensei simply told him ādo all your material without me having to correct you for 6 months straight, and youāll test.ā The shodan told me āI needed to hear that. I didnāt have a leg to stand on.ā He tested and passed 2 his nidan test years later. No idea what became of him, as I left that dojo.
At some point an adult needs to realize either shut up and train, or leave. Kids are different, as IMO their involvement in MA has a completely different purpose.
End of rant. Hopefully I didnāt misinterpret what was actually being discussed.
JR 137
Grandmaster
Use Velcro. Not the cheap stuff, but the stuff the military uses for their patches.
TSDTexan
Master of Arts
so much this!
I think he was saying more like, "If you do X to Y measurement level, you are eligible to promote."
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
We have several adults that go slower at my dojang, but they understand that they need more time to learn the material.
We have others who have quit along the way, where the following situation happened. Guy shows up to twice-weekly classes about 3 times a month on average. Needs to learn defense drills 1-7 for his test, but constantly botches 1-3. Gets close to a test and even though he's botching 1-3 still, the Master shows him 4-7 as well. Then I get to listen to a rant after class for several minutes that it's the Master's fault that he doesn't know 4-7 and the master never showed him before. Meanwhile I'm thinking "everyone else who has mastered 1-3 has been shown 4 & 5 right away." But in this guy's mind he showed up to class every day and deserved to be shown everything.
On the other hand, we have some students that don't go as fast as humanly possible, but do good once they are ready. It just takes them time to learn everything and to get it right consistently. I don't have this in Taekwondo (I learn pretty quick what I need to for my tests in Taekwondo), but it is definitely an issue for me in Hapkido, which does not come naturally to me. We have a student that started Taekwondo before me and we tested for yellow belt together. We were both ready to test in June for my 3rd degree and his 1st degree (neither of us ended up testing due to injury). He will make a fine first degree when he passes his test.
My mother went a bit slower than some people, but she did so because she wanted to be at her absolute best for each test. She absolutely crushed every test. Without giving too many details, let's just say she's a short, petite, old lady. And yet most of the others at the dojang are afraid to spar her because of how aggressive she is.
But I think it's interesting, because when a school actually does this - requires you to know the material before testing - it does make the ranks mean something, at least in terms of what you should know for the curriculum.
That's a lot like me! ...now the rant:
The organization I now belong to has probably tripled the number of rote two-man sequences used in its training curriculum since I began training the style. Unfortunately, rote memorization has never worked well for me. My last rank promotion was back about '86 in our old association, then I took time off in the 90s. I came back to the art in 2007 and have been operating a branch for the new organization since 2009 ...And in over ten years back at it I have never been able to memorize enough of the intricate two-man sets to get another promotion. Although, there may be more to it than that, as another former training partner of mine got promoted twice, reaching "master level" without being able to do the new stuff any better than I. Even he said so, and has since retired.
Part of the problem is that I run a branch in a separate state and have nobody within 1,000 miles to practice this material with. Worse, this precious advanced material is so magical and secret that it can't be shared on video, all notes must be kept private, and sequences can't be practiced with lower ranking instructors. So, when I do see my instructor a couple times a year, he goes over yet another complicated two-man sequence, demanding near perfection, then I fly home and am supposed to practice secretly in the air. Chi-sau in the air? Hogwash!
Honestly, I've never really cared about rank and certificates, but on the other hand, improvement is important to me. If the teaching method simply isn't working for me, perhaps I'd be better off working with a different group. You know, doing more sparring and stuff that makes sense to me.
I plan to have a heart to heart discussion with my instructor when I next go to train with him in a few weeks ...while spending another couple grand on travel and training. At my age I don't expect to get any more effective at fighting, but if I can't learn material effectively under the current system, perhaps it's best to move on.
BTW, I was the guy that coached my current instructor for his instructor test back in the late 80's when he was my junior. So I have been at this for a while. Maybe I just have to accept that I'm stupider than I look. And if you've seen what I look like, that's a scary thought!
I was looking back at my promotion list over the weekend (when someone gets a dan rank in the NGAA, they get a list of all their promotions up to that point). I spent a LOOOONG time at some ranks. I spent almost 3 years at one colored belt. Some folks must've passed me along the way, but by the time I was BB, there was nobody ahead of me who didn't start before me. How does that happen? I was definitely on a slow-moving mule train to BB, but I never quit. I think most folks who take longer to reach a given point (for whatever reason - mine was at least partly my business schedule at times) understand what's slowing them down.
Don't bother with patent.
The best you could hope to get granted is a design patent, rather than a full patent.
And then, any patent is only as good as the lawyers you can afford to pay to defend it.
For instance, you get a design patent on this belt idea and I copy it.
First, you have to discover that I'm copying it, then you have to commence legal action to get me to stop (or get awarded damages).
That's an expensive process, it takes a long time and if my lawyers are better then you'll lose and have to pay my fees too.
If you find out I'm copying it and don't defend, well the whole patent process became an expensive pointless exercise anyway.
Also, if my belts are a different length, or thickness, or colour scheme, or material then I'm probably not infringing the patent anyway...
And what will you do about the Chinese factory that starts pumping them out? I can tell you, nothing. Precisely zero. If companies like Honda can't stop the knock offs, neither can you (Honda simply subcontracted to a few of the companies to reduce their supply costs, and trade on having better quality than the fakes).
People like the idea of a patent, and the idea gets suggested a lot - but in reality it's useless by itself, you need major financial backing to warrant having one at all.
If you want to make them, make them. It could be a nice little specialised sideline. Maybe having the 'prior art' of discussing the idea in this thread will mean the more moral belt manufacturers might pick it up and pay you.
Maybe they won't...
hoshin1600
Senior Master
there is this word i like ...hogwash...i would apply it here.
some of what you say is true. remember the velcro wallet? well one of the mistakes made was it didnt have a patent. sure enough the Chinese started pumping them out and since it was an International issue it cost more to fight it then it was worth and it didnt stop the imposters. but that is not the reason for protecting the idea. you really want the patent and the intellectual property rights for two major reasons. if you plan on producing the item what you dont want to happen is have someone like Century MA see the design, look for a patent, see there is none, then patent it themselves thus sending you a cease and desist letter. you will no longer own your own idea and product. second case is Century MA sees the design, looks for a patent sees that there is one (that you own) and your phone rings offering you a good chunk of money for you to sell them the intellectual property rights so they can produce it. the key is to own the idea so you can sell it, otherwise they will steal it from you and you get nothing. now if you negotiate well with Century then you can get some cash and STILL produce your product just the same as you were before. this is the number one rule of business ,,,own it. ever watch "shark tank" on TV? they wont invest in a company if it doesnt have property rights. so if your looking for some financial backing because the belts are selling like hot cakes and you need some capital ,,,,well you gotta own the product before anyone will invest with you.
That's a lot like me! ...now the rant:
The organization I now belong to has probably tripled the number of rote two-man sequences used in its training curriculum since I began training the style. Unfortunately, rote memorization has never worked well for me. My last rank promotion was back about '86 in our old association, then I took time off in the 90s. I came back to the art in 2007 and have been operating a branch for the new organization since 2009 ...And in over ten years back at it I have never been able to memorize enough of the intricate two-man sets to get another promotion. Although, there may be more to it than that, as another former training partner of mine got promoted twice, reaching "master level" without being able to do the new stuff any better than I. Even he said so, and has since retired.
Part of the problem is that I run a branch in a separate state and have nobody within 1,000 miles to practice this material with. Worse, this precious advanced material is so magical and secret that it can't be shared on video, all notes must be kept private, and sequences can't be practiced with lower ranking instructors. So, when I do see my instructor a couple times a year, he goes over yet another complicated two-man sequence, demanding near perfection, then I fly home and am supposed to practice secretly in the air. Chi-sau in the air? Hogwash!
Honestly, I've never really cared about rank and certificates, but on the other hand, improvement is important to me. If the teaching method simply isn't working for me, perhaps I'd be better off working with a different group. You know, doing more sparring and stuff that makes sense to me.
I plan to have a heart to heart discussion with my instructor when I next go to train with him in a few weeks ...while spending another couple grand on travel and training. At my age I don't expect to get any more effective at fighting, but if I can't learn material effectively under the current system, perhaps it's best to move on.
BTW, I was the guy that coached my current instructor for his instructor test back in the late 80's when he was my junior. So I have been at this for a while. Maybe I just have to accept that I'm stupider than I look. And if you've seen what I look like, that's a scary thought!
In the interests of maintaining site civility, I will refrain from expressing my full opinion of someone who takes the approach your instructor is taking and the likely reasons for it.
I will say that:
I consider memorization to be pointless basis for tests and ranks. By the time you've done a form or two person set or other exercise enough to extract usable value from it, you should be way past the memorization stage.
Showing someone a two-person set and then forbidding them from sharing it with a training partner so that they can practice it is a teaching fail of epic proportions.
"Secret" techniques and sets are absolutely pointless except for maintaining control over students and cultivating a cult mentality. Unless you are talking about something like the procedures for operating a nuclear submarine, there is no value to keeping such secrets. Anyway, if your moves or sequences have solid real world application, then someone else outside your organization has almost certainly figured them out anyway.
Learning new techniques is fun, but the real value comes in learning how to do what you already do better. I've been training BJJ for around 20 years and I'm busy right now working on techniques I was shown in my first 6 months of training and learning how to apply them more effectively. If your instructor can't help you do that, then you may want to look for a better instructor.
Thanks for the support Tony. I often share your perspective. I was a little worked up when I went on that rant. Of course there are two sides to every issue, and I perhaps failed to point out that 1. the guy I train under does have great technical skill in his art, and 2. we've known each other for ages and I do consider him a friend. I will be training privately with him in a few weeks.
After that, if I can't figure out a way to progress under his tutelage, I may just switch my emphasis back to my Escrima training, ...and maybe take the time to enroll in the Gracie JJ school down the road. Life is too short to waste time if something's not working.
Well, yes and no...
There is evidence of prior art (the description in this thread, dated and uneditable without leaving a trail). This is also known as intellectual property ownership.
This would mean that if another company tries to get a design patent you can have it revoked.
They send a cease and desist letter, you contact the patent office with your prior art, they lose - and if the US patent system is anything like here they'll not be impressed either.
Quite honestly, unless you've got a full patent (which isn't going to happen with a belt) and a boatload of money to defend it then prior art is just as good.
If it was a truly novel solution, then a full patent may be granted, but really, it's a belt.
Of course, then there's the thing where a US patent may or may not apply or be enforceable anywhere else in the world...
Oh, and an international incident costing too much to fight against a Chinese company is really never what happens.
What happens is the Chinese government say "la la la I can't hear you" and they carry on like nothing happened. They honestly just don't give two figs about patent infringement in the slightest - I mean, what exactly is going to happen? No country is going to cease trade with the largest manufacturing base on the planet over some knockoffs.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i would point out that memorization of stuff like kata and 2 person sets is held in a section of the brain that turns off and that has no applicable function when it comes to self defense situations when under duress.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
When I began studying Hapkido I doubt anybody could have appeared less coordinated. Stay with it and one day you should notice that certain things just seem natural, or seem to fit so easily with other things. You will also see things right away that you used to need demonstrated several times. That was a neat thing for me when I noticed it.
Your mother must be a really neat lady. More students like her are needed in dojangs.
I absolutely agree that things that are not given away mean so much more when finally earned. Those of the 'entitlement' generation who never learn that, will never know the satisfaction of achieving tough goals. They are often the quickest to complain when they don't get their 'entitlement.'
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OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
I'd be interested in a thread on this subject.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
That's a lot like me! ...now the rant:
The organization I now belong to has probably tripled the number of rote two-man sequences used in its training curriculum since I began training the style. Unfortunately, rote memorization has never worked well for me. My last rank promotion was back about '86 in our old association, then I took time off in the 90s. I came back to the art in 2007 and have been operating a branch for the new organization since 2009 ...And in over ten years back at it I have never been able to memorize enough of the intricate two-man sets to get another promotion. Although, there may be more to it than that, as another former training partner of mine got promoted twice, reaching "master level" without being able to do the new stuff any better than I. Even he said so, and has since retired.
Part of the problem is that I run a branch in a separate state and have nobody within 1,000 miles to practice this material with. Worse, this precious advanced material is so magical and secret that it can't be shared on video, all notes must be kept private, and sequences can't be practiced with lower ranking instructors. So, when I do see my instructor a couple times a year, he goes over yet another complicated two-man sequence, demanding near perfection, then I fly home and am supposed to practice secretly in the air. Chi-sau in the air? Hogwash!
Honestly, I've never really cared about rank and certificates, but on the other hand, improvement is important to me. If the teaching method simply isn't working for me, perhaps I'd be better off working with a different group. You know, doing more sparring and stuff that makes sense to me.
I plan to have a heart to heart discussion with my instructor when I next go to train with him in a few weeks ...while spending another couple grand on travel and training. At my age I don't expect to get any more effective at fighting, but if I can't learn material effectively under the current system, perhaps it's best to move on.
BTW, I was the guy that coached my current instructor for his instructor test back in the late 80's when he was my junior. So I have been at this for a while. Maybe I just have to accept that I'm stupider than I look. And if you've seen what I look like, that's a scary thought!
I hope the bolded was said tongue-and-cheek.
Chi-sau in the air is hogwash? Really, I think you need to talk with George Dillman.
OP
OP
skribs
Grandmaster
I hope the bolded was said tongue-and-cheek.
Chi-sau in the air is hogwash? Really, I think you need to talk with George Dillman.
(Keep in mind I don't know what I'm talking about here, besides a quick look at what Chi-sau is). It is easily possible to practice the moves in the air. It's impossible to learn to read an enemy when there is no enemy to read.
This is why I find my Taekwondo tests so easy, but sparring difficult and Hapkido incredibly difficult. I am good with the rote memorization of the technique. I am a bit slow on the draw in reacting to what my opponent does. Memorizing forms, learning the techniques and coordinating my body to the more acrobatic kicks is fairly easy for me. Reading my opponent's energy is hard, and not exactly something I can practice on my own.
I don't know if I've said it in this thread, but my Master is concerned about the copyright of the curriculum at our school. So he wants to be careful about how information is released. There's also the fact that lower level students might be overwhelmed by advanced techniques, or else advanced details of basic techniques. And I think some of our techniques are kept until later simply as an incentive to continue.
But if you truly have no partner, there should be a waiver of some sort that you can get one person to help you practice, at the very least.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Can't fault that.
I can only tell you what seemed to help me. I tried to react only, with some primitive part of my brain in charge of selecting my reaction. If I tried to think, too often I was unsure and late.
That should work in TKD sparring as well. There are observations that can help recognize a likely type of attack, such as feet placement, balance, eyes, but again, after learning those, teach them to that primitive part of your brain. And in Hapkido of course, since we so often move into an attack, our attacker is often nonplussed to the point of pulling an attack, but too late.
I can sort of understand that I guess. But in the Hapkido I studied, what we were given was more of a memory jogger than a detailed description of a technique. I think that is why there are seldom any comments to techniques I try to describe. People just don't get it. But when you are taught it and then practice it, memory joggers can overcome some memory disconnects in how to do the technique. If you have something different, then maybe I can understand part of your instructor's concern. But most of the techniques I was taught simply cannot be learned from reading memory joggers.
Sure that. Especially a more senior person under you who could reasonably be expected to continuing his studies with you.
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