Things that are ridiculous in Martial Arts

[Gweilo]

@Martial D, you may find it funny, but all you have to do is spend a few moments checking on the Web, and you will find plenty of medical evidence about the xyphoid process and the liver etc.

Liver laceration related to cardiopulmonary resuscitation

 

[Martial D]

@Martial D, you may find it funny, but all you have to do is spend a few moments checking on the Web, and you will find plenty of medical evidence about the xyphoid process and the liver etc.

Liver laceration related to cardiopulmonary resuscitation

Repeated compressions and a single blow are quite different things.

 

[Gweilo]

Yes they are, but when you look at the xyphoid process, there is a cartridge type joint that keeps it attached the the body of the sternum, a weak point, and the many compressions in cpr, do not measure up to a hard strike, kick or knee.

 

[Martial D]

Yes they are, but when you look at the xyphoid process, there is a cartridge type joint that keeps it attached the the body of the sternum, a weak point, and the many compressions in cpr, do not measure up to a hard strike, kick or knee.

True, but the possible damage to the liver described in that article is resultant from both breaking the sternum and subsequently pushing the dislodged fragment into the liver. I can't imagine that would be possible with a single blow.

If it were, I'd imagine Thai boxers would be dropping like flys.

 

[Gweilo]

True, but the possible damage to the liver described in that article is resultant from both breaking the sternum and subsequently pushing the dislodged fragment into the liver. I can't imagine that would be possible with a single blow.

If it were, I'd imagine Thai boxers would be dropping like flys.

So in your opinion, a person performing cpr, can accidentally inflict such wounds, but a martial artist cannot?
I cannot comment on Thai boxers, it's not my field, but if you read the 1st of these posts, I did state a strike at a certain angle.

 

[dvcochran]

Instructors, that teach people to fight, but have never actually been in one. That is pretty ridiculous.

Way too many people "think" they have been a fight but really haven't. A war of words or a pushing match or even a swing or to do not constitute a fight. IMHO

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Way too many people "think" they have been a fight but really haven't. A war of words or a pushing match or even a swing or to do not constitute a fight. IMHO

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement.

 

[Buka]

Instructors, that teach people to fight, but have never actually been in one. That is pretty ridiculous.

Way too many people "think" they have been a fight but really haven't. A war of words or a pushing match or even a swing or to do not constitute a fight. IMHO

And then there's this.....

If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.

Now take for example, Angelo Dundee. He trained Ali, he trained Sugar Ray Leonard, he trained George Forman in George's second go round boxing career. Plus a dozen more World Boxing Champions.

Yet Angelo never boxed himself. He learned the intricacies of the sweet science by watching the great trainers at Stillman's Gym in NYC in the nineteen forties. Go figure.

So....I dunno'.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And then there's this.....

If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.

Now take for example, Angelo Dundee. He trained Ali, he trained Sugar Ray Leonard, he trained George Forman in George's second go round boxing career. Plus a dozen more World Boxing Champions.

Yet Angelo never boxed himself. He learned the intricacies of the sweet science by watching the great trainers at Stillman's Gym in NYC in the nineteen forties. Go figure.

So....I dunno'.

And likewise, there are many who can fight, but aren't very good at teaching others to. I see the same in pretty much any discipline: there are folks who can do, and folks who can do AND teach, and a smaller number who can't do nearly as well as they can teach.

 

[JR 137]

And then there's this.....

If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.

Now take for example, Angelo Dundee. He trained Ali, he trained Sugar Ray Leonard, he trained George Forman in George's second go round boxing career. Plus a dozen more World Boxing Champions.

Yet Angelo never boxed himself. He learned the intricacies of the sweet science by watching the great trainers at Stillman's Gym in NYC in the nineteen forties. Go figure.

So....I dunno'.

But there’s a catch... There’s relatively countless hours of film on boxing. Fighters train it day in and day out. They’re in the ring and it can be watched in real time. It’s relatively easy to determine who won and lost, and why and how they did so. Needless to say, it can be fine tuned easily by a person with the right “eye” for it.

Actual fighting doesn’t have that luxury. To go all @drop bear with this, there’s no quality control, validation, etc. when it comes to actual fighting. We can easily prove Dundee’s, D’Amato’s, Roach’s, et al’s success and failure rates; we can’t prove a person who’s teaching people to actually fight’s success and failure rates. We have to take their word for it or reject it based pretty much on blind faith. Dundee and the like can claim his fighters are 1000-0 in the ring and we can verify this; an SD, MA instructor can claim whatever they want and there’s no way to confirm nor dispute it as fact. My CI can claim none of his students have ever lost a real fight. Prove him right or prove him wrong.

But yeah. My CI has two artificial hips, and needs on redone. He can’t kick nor move as well as most of us in the dojo. But he has no problem with seeing our flaws and teaching us to correct them.

 

[WaterGal]

@Martial D, you may find it funny, but all you have to do is spend a few moments checking on the Web, and you will find plenty of medical evidence about the xyphoid process and the liver etc.

Liver laceration related to cardiopulmonary resuscitation

That was an interesting article, but it did say that the liver laceration was:
1) rare
2) caused by the sternum being compressed during CPR near the liver, and possibly also by "hepatic ischemia and liver distension due to venous obstruction" (I think this means "clogged blood vessels in the liver causing the liver to fill up with blood", but I'm not a doctor), and
3) not the cause of death

The idea that a strike to the xyphoid process will cause it to break off, stab you in the liver, and kill you is not supported by this article.

 

[WaterGal]

Yes they are, but when you look at the xyphoid process, there is a cartridge type joint that keeps it attached the the body of the sternum, a weak point, and the many compressions in cpr, do not measure up to a hard strike, kick or knee.

Have you ever taken a CPR class? You're all but doing a palm heel strike to the sternum over and over and over and over again. They tell you that you will (edit: almost certainly) break the patient's ribs, it will be gross, and don't stop the compressions when it happens. Fortunately I've never had to do it in real life, but it's not like CPR is a gentle press.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

And then there's this.....

If I may use sport fighting as an example - I'll use boxing. Yes, it's a sport, not a real fight, but it is a brutal and dangerous sport. To anyone who has never boxed, please take my word for it, it be nasty. I've had some rounds of boxing over the years that scared me, and hurt me, more than a lot of real fights that I was too stupid, or too stubborn, to avoid.

Now take for example, Angelo Dundee. He trained Ali, he trained Sugar Ray Leonard, he trained George Forman in George's second go round boxing career. Plus a dozen more World Boxing Champions.

Yet Angelo never boxed himself. He learned the intricacies of the sweet science by watching the great trainers at Stillman's Gym in NYC in the nineteen forties. Go figure.

So....I dunno'.

Well, they are sport fighters, not real fighters. Anyone can teach sport, it is for pretend and ego...not reality.

If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.

But instead of repeating myself, there are threads where I have already debated this.

Look those up.

 

[Gweilo]

That was an interesting article, but it did say that the liver laceration was:
1) rare
2) caused by the sternum being compressed during CPR near the liver, and possibly also by "hepatic ischemia and liver distension due to venous obstruction" (I think this means "clogged blood vessels in the liver causing the liver to fill up with blood", but I'm not a doctor), and
3) not the cause of death

The idea that a strike to the xyphoid process will cause it to break off, stab you in the liver, and kill you is not supported by this article.

The article was to show that damage to the liver was possible, from a break of xyphoid process, during cpr, where the repeated compressions are up and down, not placing the force to the right side of the body from the left. To my knowledge there has not been a paper on this issue from any martial art authorities, so can only rely on medical journals, and other published papers, even Wikipedia states the damage to the liver from xyphoid process. I also had a paper about why the Heimlich technique has been band for similar reasons to which we are discussing, I would also like to point out, yes the compressions are firm in cpr, but not as firm as a hard strike from a kick or knee etc.

 

[JR 137]

The article was to show that damage to the liver was possible, from a break of xyphoid process, during cpr, where the repeated compressions are up and down, not placing the force to the right side of the body from the left. To my knowledge there has not been a paper on this issue from any martial art authorities, so can only rely on medical journals, and other published papers, even Wikipedia states the damage to the liver from xyphoid process. I also had a paper about why the Heimlich technique has been band for similar reasons to which we are discussing, I would also like to point out, yes the compressions are firm in cpr, but not as firm as a hard strike from a kick or knee etc.

You’re missing something here. You’re equating a single or relatively few strikes to the repetition of CPR compressions. The issue with CPR isn’t one or two or a few more compressions; the problem with it is many compressions at a very fast pace. You’re supposed to do compressions at a rate of 100-120 per minute, or about 2 per second. And you’re doing many sets of 30 compressions. That bone fragment is going to travel around and damage anything in its path every time there’s a compression. A bunch of micro trauma repeated over and over again very quickly. A punch will have more damage than a single compression, but it’s not cutting your insides a couple hundred times.

Killing someone with a punch to the xiphoid process is severely overblown. Sure it could happen, but it’s quite unlikely. If I have the opening, I’ll take it. It’s a great target because it hurts like a mofo. But I’m not walking around thinking I’ll drop and/or kill anyone out there with one punch to it. Not even close.

 

[Gweilo]

Killing someone with a punch to the xiphoid process is severely overblown. Sure it could happen, but it’s quite unlikely. If I have the opening, I’ll take it. It’s a great target because it hurts like a mofo. But I’m not walking around thinking I’ll drop and/or kill anyone out there with one punch to it. Not even close.

I agree entirely, I would not consider such a strike, unless I had no other option, but the conversation was about the possibility of these things being possible, or are they ridiculous.

 

[Buka]

If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.

Look those up.

Shock me? No, not really. I'm a little long in the tooth to be shocked by anything having to do with real fighting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But there’s a catch... There’s relatively countless hours of film on boxing. Fighters train it day in and day out. They’re in the ring and it can be watched in real time. It’s relatively easy to determine who won and lost, and why and how they did so. Needless to say, it can be fine tuned easily by a person with the right “eye” for it.

Actual fighting doesn’t have that luxury. To go all @drop bear with this, there’s no quality control, validation, etc. when it comes to actual fighting. We can easily prove Dundee’s, D’Amato’s, Roach’s, et al’s success and failure rates; we can’t prove a person who’s teaching people to actually fight’s success and failure rates. We have to take their word for it or reject it based pretty much on blind faith. Dundee and the like can claim his fighters are 1000-0 in the ring and we can verify this; an SD, MA instructor can claim whatever they want and there’s no way to confirm nor dispute it as fact. My CI can claim none of his students have ever lost a real fight. Prove him right or prove him wrong.

But yeah. My CI has two artificial hips, and needs on redone. He can’t kick nor move as well as most of us in the dojo. But he has no problem with seeing our flaws and teaching us to correct them.

Indeed, even with those who have actually fought (outside competition), we don’t really have evidence of their success, nor (perhaps more importantly) whether they know what led to any success they had.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, they are sport fighters, not real fighters. Anyone can teach sport, it is for pretend and ego...not reality.

If there is a safety net...(This might shock you) it is not real combat. How can it be? There are rules.

But instead of repeating myself, there are threads where I have already debated this.

Look those up.

There are certainly "real fights" in which the participants are not trying to main or kill each other. The rules may be unwritten, but they're real none the less.
The trick is to figure out which sort of fight you're facing...

 

[Deleted member 34973]

There are certainly "real fights" in which the participants are not trying to main or kill each other. The rules may be unwritten, but they're real none the less.
The trick is to figure out which sort of fight you're facing...

I would say it is competitive sparring, but sparring is not actually fighting. It is an exercise more than anything.

But I do agree with your statement about "what type of fight"