What are the reasons for time-in-grade?

[Buka]

After five years since my first ever BJJ class, I'm a white belt, but an inexperienced one. Hopefully, one day, I can steal your claim.

And hopefully without getting you butt kicked as much as I seem to always do. I am an absolute expert at getting my *** kicked.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

After five years since my first ever BJJ class, I'm a white belt, but an inexperienced one. Hopefully, one day, I can steal your claim.

Hey, at least you're a white belt. I'm still a dabbler (never attended an actual BJJ class - just some seminars and rolling with friends).

 

[skribs]

Hey, at least you're a white belt. I'm still a dabbler (never attended an actual BJJ class - just some seminars and rolling with friends).

It's on my list of arts I'd like to train. The problem is, I'm already busy enough with TKD and HKD, and the list of arts I want to train as supplements is longer than my "continue watching" list of shows on Netflix.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's on my list of arts I'd like to train. The problem is, I'm already busy enough with TKD and HKD, and the list of arts I want to train as supplements is longer than my "continue watching" list of shows on Netflix.

It's definitely on my list. If I ever have the time and money at the same time again, I've been eyeing an MMA gym nearby that has BJJ and boxing, which is also on my list.

 

[skribs]

It's definitely on my list. If I ever have the time and money at the same time again, I've been eyeing an MMA gym nearby that has BJJ and boxing, which is also on my list.

BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, and Muay Thai are the four at the top of my list.

 

[JP3]

I can provide an example of this issue. In most of NGA, most kicks are tested at green belt (3rd of 6 kyu), and are often taught shortly before the student is ready to test. Most students will never use their kicks much, partly because they really don’t get a chance to develop them before the test. They are typically only worked before each test that includes them.

So... if they are de-emphasized in that way, why are they "in" the system at all? Just to expose them to the concepts/angles/principles of striking with feet/legs?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So... if they are de-emphasized in that way, why are they "in" the system at all? Just to expose them to the concepts/angles/principles of striking with feet/legs?

I'm not entirely sure at this point. I emphasize some more in my teaching, and have stopped teaching others, because I could find no good use for them. I assume someone once had a good use for them, but I'm not that person. I felt the same way about the nunchaku techniques taught in preparation for nidan. I never saw those used well, so I ditched them and added in some FMA-based basic stickwork much earlier in the curriculum, plus some really simple staff work and a miscellany of just adaptive weapons work along the way.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's not as universal as your statement seems to suggest. Most places I've seen TIG, the time shown is a pretty good approximation of how long it takes people to make the progress required for the next rank.

well... mileage may vary.

I suspect it can vary from school to school based on pedagogy, and methodology... But I must say that my opinion, [ based on observation of my students and having been a longtime (serial) student ], that a lot of places have a very long tig because:
1. students (some, not all) are lazy and don't pursue excellence (karate after school daycare, or doing it as chore for mom or dad)
2. the curricula is either inefficient, or not accelerated for those who are highly self-disciplined (ie those who are spending an hour or even three hours, afterclass, reviewing what they just learned at home) and apply themselves.(they have an intense daily practice)
and are well enough ahead of the curve, or well versed enough to promote if tested on the spot, yet are still 1 year out due to "tig reqs".

contrast this with the guys or kids that barely show up 1-2 times a week for class, and that's 100% of what they do. (and this is normative for many schools)
The tigs are for hobbyist level practitioners, and not for those who hve embraced it as a holistic / integral way of life... or are hardcore devotees who are on fire and are inhaling it as fast as you can throw it at them.

I admire the old Kodokan performance meritocratic dan promotions. Ie... if you can repeatedly execute your technique " under pressure " then you've earned that regardless of time spent under an Organization and paying dues. 3 ippons in a single tournament.
bam! first dan, or second, or third.

jmtc

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well... mileage may vary.

I suspect it can vary from school to school based on pedagogy, and methodology... But I must say that my opinion, [ based on observation of my students and having been a longtime (serial) student ], that a lot of places have a very long tig because:
1. students (some, not all) are lazy and don't pursue excellence (karate after school daycare, or doing it as chore for mom or dad)
2. the curricula is either inefficient, or not accelerated for those who are highly self-disciplined (ie those who are spending an hour or even three hours, afterclass, reviewing what they just learned at home) and apply themselves.(they have an intense daily practice)
and are well enough ahead of the curve, or well versed enough to promote if tested on the spot, yet are still 1 year out due to "tig reqs".

contrast this with the guys or kids that barely show up 1-2 times a week for class, and that's 100% of what they do. (and this is normative for many schools)
The tigs are for hobbyist level practitioners, and not for those who hve embraced it as a holistic / integral way of life... or are hardcore devotees who are on fire and are inhaling it as fast as you can throw it at them.

I admire the old Kodokan performance meritocratic dan promotions. Ie... if you can repeatedly execute your technique " under pressure " then you've earned that regardless of time spent under an Organization and paying dues. 3 ippons in a single tournament.
bam! first dan, or second, or third.

jmtc

That is why I said TIG should be a guideline (even when stated as a "requirement", this should be something an instructor can show cause to override). And I do think that's necessary with most TIG. The TIG in the NGAA goes a bit to far in the other direction. I only know one person who ever completed all ranks (to shodan) at the edge of TIG, and even he later said his progress was too fast. He was a private student (not mine) who worked hard for 3. 5 years (minimum time to shodan under TIG).

I've not seen many that actually fit the hobbyist (most hobbyists never had to worry about TIG - it took them longer), but that's probably because I've had limited exposure. Judo has (like BJJ and other arts with a heavy competition core) the advantage of being able to check levels in competition. Smaller arts suffer by not having a good option for that, and some arts just haven't gone that direction. But yeah, I think the progression should be mostly about how good you are. If I were to set TIG (if there were other instructors teaching my curriculum, I might), it would be set more like the NGAA did - so that anything faster would be pretty exceptional, and would leave the instructor needing to be clear on why someone is progressing that quickly.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In BJJ, the only really widespread time-in-grade requirements are for degrees of black belt. That makes sense because all ranks after the initial black belt are for time in service to the art (teaching, competing, etc).

It took me 15 years to earn my black belt in BJJ. I have friends who earned it in 5. I have another friend who has been doing BJJ for 20 years and has only reached purple belt. Reaching a given level takes as long as it takes.

 

[JR 137]

There’s a very simple, and great reason for minimum time in grade:

There’s no substitute for experience.

Simple as that, really. Think you’re good enough after 6 months, even though minimum time in grade is 2 years? Even if you genuinely are good enough after 6 months, you’ll certainly be a lot better 18 months after that with solid and consistent training. If you can’t wait around for a promotion, you should think about what you’re actually there for, why it’s so important, and if it’s really worth waiting around for.

 

[skribs]

Simple as that, really. Think you’re good enough after 6 months, even though minimum time in grade is 2 years? Even if you genuinely are good enough after 6 months, you’ll certainly be a lot better 18 months after that with solid and consistent training.

Does getting a promotion mean you stop doing solid and consistent training?

 

[dvcochran]

There’s a very simple, and great reason for minimum time in grade:

There’s no substitute for experience.

Simple as that, really. Think you’re good enough after 6 months, even though minimum time in grade is 2 years? Even if you genuinely are good enough after 6 months, you’ll certainly be a lot better 18 months after that with solid and consistent training. If you can’t wait around for a promotion, you should think about what you’re actually there for, why it’s so important, and if it’s really worth waiting around for.

It is a rare breed who are physically good enough at 6 months. A much rarer breed who are physically capable and also have the mental capacity to correctly process higher level things such as when skills should be used. That is the greatest value in a hard TIG. IMHO.

 

[JR 137]

Does getting a promotion mean you stop doing solid and consistent training?

No. Why would it mean that?

 

[skribs]

No. Why would it mean that?

Because if the purpose of keeping you from a promotion is to get more solid and consistent training, and you can get that still if you get a promotion, then what's the point in keeping you from the promotion?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because if the purpose of keeping you from a promotion is to get more solid and consistent training, and you can get that still if you get a promotion, then what's the point in keeping you from the promotion?

I think the common implication is that after promotion, there's often a bunch of new material presented. It's hard to focus on the old material if there's a bunch of new stuff to be learned. Admittedly, that's a situation built into the curriculum and needn't be so. We could just as easily have a curriculum where all the material is delivered a few weeks before testing and the person simply has to demonstrate they've memorized it. Then there's no new material for a period of time after promotion, so they can focus on that stuff. Same-same.

 

[JR 137]

Because if the purpose of keeping you from a promotion is to get more solid and consistent training, and you can get that still if you get a promotion, then what's the point in keeping you from the promotion?

Further mastery of the present material before moving on to new material. An example:

I’ve seen 2 people in my dojo go from just promoted to second dan to 2 years into 3rd dan. I’ve seen others promoted to various ranks, but I’ve seen their progression closer and it sticks out in my mind better.

The minimum time in grade for 2nd dan to 3rd dan is 3 years. 2nd dan syllabus is pretty deep. It took them about 6 months of consistent training to get good at it. They’re both probably the best athletes in the dojo, from a movement, agility and performance perspective. At 6 months they looked better than some others who’ve been 2nd dan for a good amount longer. If you knew nothing about them nor time in grade and watched them, you’d say they were ready to promote again.

At 1 year in, they were a good bit better. At 2, even better. At 3 years in, they were fantastic.

Ask them, and they’ll truthfully tell you they didn’t feel like they were held back unfairly because of some arbitrary rule. They’d probably tell you they wouldn’t have minded putting it off for more time.

As long as someone’s improving, minimum time in grade works. It’s best at the black belt ranks IMO.

I knew and could demonstrate 90% of the syllabus up to and including 1st dan when I joined my school. It had been 15 years since I trained, but I could do the material. Promoting me then and there to 1st dan wouldn’t have done me any favors. I double promoted twice and wasn’t held to minimum time in grade once, but other than that, I’ve my timeframe has basically been the same as it is for everyone else. At this point, I’m far better than I ever was during my first stint. So long as I’m getting better, what’s it matter when I promote? Learning new stuff is fun and all, but sharpening the basics is really where it’s at.

All IMO.

 

[JR 137]

To add to my previous post...

I was supposed to test for my 1st dan next month. About 3 weeks after my teacher invited me to test, I accepted a new job. No way I want to take the time off and make a bad impression - I’ll have to take about 4 days off due to the testing schedule and travel.

I haven’t lost any sleep over it. And I’ll be that much better in April/May when the test is offered again. There’s no substitute for experience. And it’s not as if not learning the 1st dan material is going to stunt my karate growth.

The only ones I see minimum time in grade holding people back being unfair is for competitors. If you’ve got someone who’s tearing up their division and they’re not seeing the competition they should because of rank, then yeah, that’s not good. Other than that, minimum time in grade is perfectly fine IMO.

 

[dvcochran]

I would much, much rather see a few really excellent (insert rank here) than a bunch of decent or mediocre students who are belted higher than their skillset. For most the maturation process takes longer than the physical skills.
A really great pot of beans take time to simmer.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the short answer to this whole question is, "Because that's how the rank structure works in that organization." We can present a lot of different ways ranks/promotion are handled, or could be. I've yet to find one that doesn't have something in its favor, even the ones I don't personally like.

I don't like hard TIG, though I can see some good uses for it. But in the end, some ranks are just TIG-dependent, and that's how they were designed.