What are the reasons for time-in-grade?

[dvcochran]

I think the short answer to this whole question is, "Because that's how the rank structure works in that organization." We can present a lot of different ways ranks/promotion are handled, or could be. I've yet to find one that doesn't have something in its favor, even the ones I don't personally like.

I don't like hard TIG, though I can see some good uses for it. But in the end, some ranks are just TIG-dependent, and that's how they were designed.

I realized I mis-spoke in a previous post.
I do not agree with a hard and finite TIG. I do strongly agree with minimum TIG. Your post made me realize some people may see them as the same thing. Too easily and too often people think they are ready to promote because they physically know the material, at least in broad brush strokes, and are enticed by "getting that next belt". Somewhere in the process the motivators need to change. Again, part of the maturation process. Introspection is a powerful tool.

 

[JR 137]

Some people will complain about minimum time in grade. Then they’ll criticize the 35 year old 8th dan. Kinda makes you wonder.

 

[skribs]

Some people will complain about minimum time in grade. Then they’ll criticize the 35 year old 8th dan. Kinda makes you wonder.

If he's been doing martial arts for 10 hours a day since he was 3 years old, why not?

 

[Flying Crane]

If he's been doing martial arts for 10 hours a day since he was 3 years old, why not?

But he hasn’t, and we all know it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If he's been doing martial arts for 10 hours a day since he was 3 years old, why not?

No 3 year old has that sort of attention span. And they never went to school? Or held a job?
Pretty ridiculous for anyone to make a claim like this.

 

[skribs]

But he hasn’t, and we all know it.

Are you referring to someone specific? I was giving a hypothetical.

No 3 year old has that sort of attention span. And they never went to school? Or held a job?
Pretty ridiculous for anyone to make a claim like this.

I've worked with a couple that do. It's rare, but some do.

 

[Flying Crane]

Are you referring to someone specific? I was giving a hypothetical.



I've worked with a couple that do. It's rare, but some do.

No, mine was also hypothetical. But it is a ridiculous claim on its face. It does not happen. If anyone puts forth such a justification for rank, they are a liar.

 

[Flying Crane]

No, mine was also hypothetical. But it is a ridiculous claim on its face. It does not happen. If anyone puts forth such a justification for rank, they are a liar.

@skribs, what is there to disagree with here?

 

[skribs]

@skribs, what is there to disagree with here?

You're saying that such a claim is impossible.

Now, I will agree it is improbable. But there are some people who have a passion and a dedication from a very young age. These are the kind of people that are maybe 1-in-10,000,000. But they have that kind of passion and dedication.

 

[Flying Crane]

You're saying that such a claim is impossible.

Now, I will agree it is improbable. But there are some people who have a passion and a dedication from a very young age. These are the kind of people that are maybe 1-in-10,000,000. But they have that kind of passion and dedication.

not at age three. a claim like that would require some serious proof. Some kind of training documentation.

Someone’s rank isn’t my business and it is my opinion that rank is often abused and used in silly and unrealistic ways. I am glad to be training in a system that does not use it. So I’m not out to bust anyone’s chops on their rank. I mostly keep my opinion to myself.

But, if someone put this justification out there about their own rank, especially if unsolicited, then response becomes appropriate. And I definitely call BS on that one.

The thought that a three year old spends ten hours a day in training, nonsense. Day after day, nonsense. For years, nonsense. When does he go to school? Nonsense. Who financially supports him, because he does not have the time or energy to work a job as he gets older? Nonsense.

The whole claim is nonsense and silly.

 

[skribs]

not at age three. a claim like that would require some serious proof. Some kind of training documentation.

Someone’s rank isn’t my business and it is my opinion that rank is often abused and used in silly and unrealistic ways. I am glad to be training in a system that does not use it. So I’m not out to bust anyone’s chops on their rank. I mostly keep my opinion to myself.

But, if someone put this justification out there about their own rank, especially if unsolicited, then response becomes appropriate. And I definitely call BS on that one.

The thought that a three year old spends ten hours a day in training, nonsense. Day after day, nonsense. For years, nonsense. When does he go to school? Nonsense. Who financially supports him, because he does not have the time or energy to work a job as he gets older? Nonsense.

The whole claim is nonsense and silly.

There's time in the day other than when you're at work or school. And someone who has 15 years experience in martial arts can earn their keep by teaching martial arts.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Are you referring to someone specific? I was giving a hypothetical.



I've worked with a couple that do. It's rare, but some do.

You've worked with a couple 3 year olds that have the attention span to train for 10 hours every day?

 

[skribs]

You've worked with a couple 3 year olds that have the attention span to train for 10 hours every day?

It's less about the attention span, and more about obsession.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It's less about the attention span, and more about obsession.

So you've worked with 3 year olds where their obsession with martial arts results in them training (not talking about it but training) 10 hours every day?

 

[Flying Crane]

So you've worked with 3 year olds where their obsession with martial arts results in them training (not talking about it but training) 10 hours every day?

And as a father myself of a five year-old, I’ll add without collapsing in a heap of frustration after 15 minutes...

Whew, that gets to be a grueling ten hours, day after day...

 

[skribs]

So you've worked with 3 year olds where their obsession with martial arts results in them training (not talking about it but training) 10 hours every day?

For a short period of time, yes. For an extended period, no. And maybe I was a little hyperbolic. Maybe a 5 year old, for several hours a day. One with the same type of personality I had as a kid (which was if I like something, I do it nonstop). And/or one with parents who are heavily into martial arts.

Remember, my situation is hypothetical, not anecdotal. And there are kids that train hard their entire lives from an early age to become professional athletes. There are lots of videos of really young kids (I'm talking in the 4-5 year old range) who are already very competent at martial arts. They don't get to that level by slouching at a young age.

My point is, how much experience does someone have if they train on a normal schedule of 3 classes a week, 2 hours a class, and they practice that much on their own as well. 12 hours a week. After 40 years, they'd have 24,000 hours of practice. Someone who practices with that much dedication for 40 years is probably going to be in 7th or 8th dan territory.

Someone else, who trains 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, would need 14 years to come to that same level of experience. 24,000 hours. Does the person training 12 hours a week not train enough to be worthy of the title? Does the person training 36 hours a week need to be held back?

My original example was 10 hours a day from 3 years old, but this example would work for 6 hours a day even from 20 years old. Now, these are obviously just random numbers. Maybe you think the person should be training for 20 hours a week for 50 years to get 8th dan. Well, it's not hard to do some math on that, either. 50k hours, which someone who trains 40 hours a week could get in half that time...if they started at 10 years old, that's possible by 35. And it's a lot less than the 70 hours/week (10 hours/day) I quoted above, starting at an age more reasonable to your criticisms of my approach.

So how much experience should someone have for 8th dan? If it's possible to have the same amount by age 35, why shouldn't that person have it?

 

[Flying Crane]

There's time in the day other than when you're at work or school. And someone who has 15 years experience in martial arts can earn their keep by teaching martial arts.

Not if he is training ten hours a day. That is exhausting. There is no energy left for it.

 

[skribs]

Not if he is training ten hours a day. That is exhausting. There is no energy left for it.

When I was a kid, me and my best friend would spend hours on a trampoline, sparring, pretty much half the year. This was with school and with a lot of the other stuff we would do.

 

[Flying Crane]

For a short period of time, yes. For an extended period, no. And maybe I was a little hyperbolic. Maybe a 5 year old, for several hours a day. One with the same type of personality I had as a kid (which was if I like something, I do it nonstop). And/or one with parents who are heavily into martial arts.

Remember, my situation is hypothetical, not anecdotal. And there are kids that train hard their entire lives from an early age to become professional athletes. There are lots of videos of really young kids (I'm talking in the 4-5 year old range) who are already very competent at martial arts. They don't get to that level by slouching at a young age.

My point is, how much experience does someone have if they train on a normal schedule of 3 classes a week, 2 hours a class, and they practice that much on their own as well. 12 hours a week. After 40 years, they'd have 24,000 hours of practice. Someone who practices with that much dedication for 40 years is probably going to be in 7th or 8th dan territory.

Someone else, who trains 6 hours a day, 6 days a week, would need 14 years to come to that same level of experience. 24,000 hours. Does the person training 12 hours a week not train enough to be worthy of the title? Does the person training 36 hours a week need to be held back?

My original example was 10 hours a day from 3 years old, but this example would work for 6 hours a day even from 20 years old. Now, these are obviously just random numbers. Maybe you think the person should be training for 20 hours a week for 50 years to get 8th dan. Well, it's not hard to do some math on that, either. 50k hours, which someone who trains 40 hours a week could get in half that time...if they started at 10 years old, that's possible by 35. And it's a lot less than the 70 hours/week (10 hours/day) I quoted above, starting at an age more reasonable to your criticisms of my approach.

So how much experience should someone have for 8th dan? If it's possible to have the same amount by age 35, why shouldn't that person have it?

For one thing, the quality of the training during those early years starting at age three, is definitely not the same as the quality of training at age...thirteen, for example. So simply adding up the hours as you are doing, comes with a bunch of qualifiers. At age three, it’s just gross motor skills disguised as games in a desperate attempt to maintain interest. There isn’t much understanding going on there. At age thirteen, there is some learning and some understanding going on; the quality of the time spent is much higher.

The hyperbole doesn’t help. It takes an extreme example with a very very (very very very) low likelihood and tries to present it as reasonable. It isn’t.

 

[Flying Crane]

When I was a kid, me and my best friend would spend hours on a trampoline, sparring, pretty much half the year. This was with school and with a lot of the other stuff we would do.

Not the same thing, if the quality of the martial training has any meaning at all.