Con-Artist Martial Artists
- Thread starter jkdgenius
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Headhunter
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*facepalm* obviously they're not all going to be but they all have the /potential/ to be
This is one of the issues with revering the old masters. They were people. I've heard people say (including some high-ranking instructors) that they will only do exactly what they were shown by their instructor, or what was included by the founder. In either of those cases, they assume that person was both infallible (nobody could possibly do something better - even a little bit) and done (they'd decided what they created was perfect and were no longer tweaking it). I find both of those assumptions dubious. I have a lot of respect for the folks who created styles that work well and lasted. I think most of them (the ones who weren't too egotistical) would be quite happy to see their creation carried forward by people who were tweaking it, always looking to make it better and more applicable.
You're right, sorry for the reaction. I get protective of those that matter to me. Especially in a thread with a thread title like this one. I don't really like seeing their name in it, it's out of place in my opinion.
My sincerest apologies for jumping at you, Tony.
Another observation - it's true that most instructors with underwhelming conventional qualifications aren't the exceptions who turn out to be great masters. (Neither are most instructors with solid conventional qualifications.) However, many of them do end up being reasonably competent middle-of-the road martial artists who can hold their own with better credentialed instructors. I've encountered this situation more than once.
On a related note, many people like to valorize the founders of their art as paragons of moral virtue. Besides being great martial artists, we like to imagine that they were peaceful, humble, and honest.
Often this is not the case.
If they were peaceful, they would be less likely to have the experience with violence that might give a realistic foundation to the art.
If they were humble, they would be less likely to place their own judgment of how a martial art should be constructed over that of their predecessors.
If they were honest, they might be at a disadvantage in popularizing their new art compared to less scrupulous self-promoters.
"If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton.
In cases where a martial art has continued to progress based on real world testing, the old masters would probably be considered technical deficient compared to subsequent generations who were able to build on their work.
If you used a time machine to pluck a 25 year old Helio Gracie from 1938, brought him to the present day, and entered him into any high-level BJJ or MMA competition he would get his butt kicked. The art has just progressed too far. On the other hand, if you left him here and allowed him to study and train for a year, he would likely do pretty well. He was smart, hard-working, and tough as nails. If he could accomplish as much as he did with the minimal instruction available to him at the time then he would be a force to reckon with given the information and training opportunities of today.
In contrast, I doubt that many modern practitioners of sword arts could compare with the masters of an age when actual life-or-death sword fights were a common occurrence. Theory, tradition, drilling, and sparring with protective gear are not the same as the experience of actually cutting down someone who was trying to kill you with a long piece of sharpened steel.
I understand your reaction, but I think the Helio and Carlos are really good examples for making my point. If we were talking about Sensei Tim Tea from the White Dragon Shaolin Jutsu school down the block (names tweaked to protect the possibly guilty), then we could have a bunch of "is not" "is too" arguments over whether he was the real deal or a fraud. In contrast, BJJ and the Gracie family have proven themselves so that even critics and haters have to acknowledge their legitimacy. When you combine that empirically proven effectiveness of the art and practitioners with the historically documented fact that Carlos and Helio matched the profile of the sort of instructor we usually dismiss as a fraud ... it suggests that maybe we shouldn't always be in a rush to judgment.
That's something I'll be thinking about all day.
Mark Lynn
Master Black Belt
Excuse me but who made you the kids QA inspector? Yes I've seen plenty of rubbish over my 30+ years in the martial arts as well as getting to train with a lot of high level instructors. So yeah I do know the difference. However after teaching steadily for the past 12 years (plus about 5 years total time back in the 90's/2000 era) if some one takes a look at me now you'll see a over weight, older, middle aged guy who doesn't kick anymore (well high that is
), compared to the younger TKD high kickers out there. It's very easy to write me (us old timers) off. If you look in my school you'll see no trophies, no 30 year old grand champion ship title belts etc. etc. Just an old guy doing the daily grind of teaching 5 nights days a week plus getting in extra training when I can.However your comment about handing out belts like candy and telling the parents how great their kids are doing is why I've responded. From an outsider point of view you look at some of my students and you might think why am I telling that kid he doing great or that parent that the kid is doing well. Their technique is wobbly, their attention isn't focused, the kata looks off somewhat, why is the instructor high fiving the kid for getting through it?
Listen the kids who are the underdogs, who have learning issues, who have discipline, physical challenges are the ones who need the martial arts. They aren't going to be the next Chuck Norris, or world champion, they might not be my next black belts, they might not be there in class tomorrow, who knows. There is nothing wrong with celebrating or letting their parents know when they have had a good day in class, of telling the kid that I'm proud of them for getting through a kata something they have been struggling with for several classes. What some kids master quite easily others will struggle for weeks and months, some kids have great athletic ability while others don't. But both can be giving all that they have towards trying to learn the technique.
As an outsider you wouldn't know the struggles or the back story of the students, as an instructor I do (for my students that is). For an outsider or a guest observer to be telling my student's parents as you loudly leave the dojo that this or that is crap, just because you don't think what they are doing or being shown is worthy. Like I said who appointed you this QA position for all karate schools. When you are a JKD guy at that. You don't even do karate.
My students might not be a world champion some day; sometimes though it is enough just to let them have a positive experience to the end of a hellish day at school or at home.
Mark Lynn
Master Black Belt
I totally agree here, I believe all to often we judge people based on their lineage/style, age, fitness level, etc. etc. not on what they can do or even what they can bring to the table such as knowledge and experience, teaching ability etc. etc.
Mark Lynn
Master Black Belt
Con Artist
1) Years ago I studied with an instructor who was developing a blended system, between Wing Chun, Gojo ryu, and Balintawak Escrima. I had an interest in the FMAs so I joined. After finding out what was going on I stuck around to learn the Balintawak, soon I was invited to join the private backyard training sessions with an older gentleman from the Philippines who was teaching the instructor and some interested students. Well the instructor got impatient and decided (as he confided in me) to trick the older man into showing him/us the next level by countering his technique. The Filipino instructor quit teaching us after one lesson of him trying to trick him. I quit right afterwards. The instructor was charging us to learn from him while he was taking lessons from the older Filipino master, but because the Filipino master had his time table which didn't line up with the instructor's he decided to try and "trick him" as if he was smarter than the master instructor. We never saw the Balintawak instructor again.
2) A Korean master had a reputation where he would blow into town and rent a school. Get a senior student to pay extra money for him to pass on the secrets of the style in the form of private lessons, raise that student up in rank (well before normal time) then have that student buy the school and move on. Unaware of this I went to the school to check it out, sat down with the master as he tried to tell me his art was 2000 years old and he has trained in multitudes of different styles including every Korean Art I ever hear of, Shaolin Kung Fu, and JKD. Even though it was in the 1980's alarm bells were going off. As I got up to leave the guy was insistent that I buy his over priced books to further my education. I felt like we were going to get into it as I tried and did leave (the only time I felt threatened in a school). I heard about his method of operation a couple of years later from my karate instructor, and actually met a co-worker who told me he joined that school evidently right after the guy sold the school (which had only been in the area for a couple of years) to one of the top brown belts (along with a black belt promotion).
1) Years ago I studied with an instructor who was developing a blended system, between Wing Chun, Gojo ryu, and Balintawak Escrima. I had an interest in the FMAs so I joined. After finding out what was going on I stuck around to learn the Balintawak, soon I was invited to join the private backyard training sessions with an older gentleman from the Philippines who was teaching the instructor and some interested students. Well the instructor got impatient and decided (as he confided in me) to trick the older man into showing him/us the next level by countering his technique. The Filipino instructor quit teaching us after one lesson of him trying to trick him. I quit right afterwards. The instructor was charging us to learn from him while he was taking lessons from the older Filipino master, but because the Filipino master had his time table which didn't line up with the instructor's he decided to try and "trick him" as if he was smarter than the master instructor. We never saw the Balintawak instructor again.
2) A Korean master had a reputation where he would blow into town and rent a school. Get a senior student to pay extra money for him to pass on the secrets of the style in the form of private lessons, raise that student up in rank (well before normal time) then have that student buy the school and move on. Unaware of this I went to the school to check it out, sat down with the master as he tried to tell me his art was 2000 years old and he has trained in multitudes of different styles including every Korean Art I ever hear of, Shaolin Kung Fu, and JKD. Even though it was in the 1980's alarm bells were going off. As I got up to leave the guy was insistent that I buy his over priced books to further my education. I felt like we were going to get into it as I tried and did leave (the only time I felt threatened in a school). I heard about his method of operation a couple of years later from my karate instructor, and actually met a co-worker who told me he joined that school evidently right after the guy sold the school (which had only been in the area for a couple of years) to one of the top brown belts (along with a black belt promotion).
Agreed. Credentialing (and its analogs) are often more a cue of what the person may have learned, than how well they may have learned it or be able to teach it. By that, I mean that knowing someone has their BB in a given art will give me an idea of the type of material (based on the style) and the amount of the material (based on the rank achieved). I've known people who trained a shorter period in NGA who were better fighters than me, and some who trained longer and aren't as good in that area. BJJ is a very good place to find folks with less-than-stellar credentials (meaning relatively low rank) who are actually pretty danged competent, including some nifty teachers.
This is something I struggle with when I think about teaching kids. I want ranks to mean what I want them to mean, but I'm not sure that serves some of the kids who can best benefit from the experience. When I taught at my instructor's school, kids got a lot out of their training, though the ranks didn't mean what I want them to. As I mature in my thinking on this, I suspect the problem is just that I want them to mean something that's not all that useful for teaching kids.Excuse me but who made you the kids QA inspector? Yes I've seen plenty of rubbish over my 30+ years in the martial arts as well as getting to train with a lot of high level instructors. So yeah I do know the difference. However after teaching steadily for the past 12 years (plus about 5 years total time back in the 90's/2000 era) if some one takes a look at me now you'll see a over weight, older, middle aged guy who doesn't kick anymore (well high that is
However your comment about handing out belts like candy and telling the parents how great their kids are doing is why I've responded. From an outsider point of view you look at some of my students and you might think why am I telling that kid he doing great or that parent that the kid is doing well. Their technique is wobbly, their attention isn't focused, the kata looks off somewhat, why is the instructor high fiving the kid for getting through it?
Listen the kids who are the underdogs, who have learning issues, who have discipline, physical challenges are the ones who need the martial arts. They aren't going to be the next Chuck Norris, or world champion, they might not be my next black belts, they might not be there in class tomorrow, who knows. There is nothing wrong with celebrating or letting their parents know when they have had a good day in class, of telling the kid that I'm proud of them for getting through a kata something they have been struggling with for several classes. What some kids master quite easily others will struggle for weeks and months, some kids have great athletic ability while others don't. But both can be giving all that they have towards trying to learn the technique.
As an outsider you wouldn't know the struggles or the back story of the students, as an instructor I do (for my students that is). For an outsider or a guest observer to be telling my student's parents as you loudly leave the dojo that this or that is crap, just because you don't think what they are doing or being shown is worthy. Like I said who appointed you this QA position for all karate schools. When you are a JKD guy at that. You don't even do karate.
My students might not be a world champion some day; sometimes though it is enough just to let them have a positive experience to the end of a hellish day at school or at home.
If you have a certain personal criteria for what rank means what, and children aren't going to be able to fulfill those then you'll have to introduce a set of junior ranks based on a different and/or restricted criteria set if you want to teach to children.
The thing to watch for is when the child gets to an age where they can be held to (your) adult standards. If you've already taught with a restricted set you'll be asking them to effectively start over with material they've (in their mind) already covered, which will likely cause retention problems...
Set your standards.....whoever meets those standards earns the rank....whoever doesn't, doesn't. No need to over-complicate it.
I'm not a fan of an approach to teaching where the counter to a counter to a technique I am teaching would be a secret until the student reached some particular "level" or followed a certain timetable. Definitely not a fan of the idea that attempting to counter my technique would be considered a trick or an offense.
When I teach a particular technique in class, I always look for an opportunity to execute that technique in sparring that same class. I expect my sparring partner to try countering it. If I succeed, it gives them confidence that the move can work and helps show them how I deal with counters. If I don't succeed, it gives me clues as to what I need to improve in my own execution.
Of course, when I'm demonstrating a move to the class for instructional purposes, I don't necessarily want my uke trying to shut down the technique. Even so, it can make for a good teaching moment. If the attempted counter is ineffective, I show how I just carry on with the technique without being stopped. If the counter is effective, I explain how that particular scenario requires a different technique (possibly showing the alternate technique quickly in passing) and I show the correct energy the uke should feed in order to allow the technique we are currently drilling.
I've always worked with rank differentiation - youth ranks vs. adult. In my case, I'm unlikely to teach kids younger than say 10 or 12, since I don't want smaller teens even in the adult classes (too much disparity for realistic grappling). If I ever brought in younger kids, I'd add another set of ranks. In all likelihood, I'd use subsets of the adult material for youth ranks, so if they moved up to adult ranks, they'd have less to learn. I wouldn't bother making them re-do old material if they can pass it at the appropriate level.
I think my standards are probably unrealistic for most kids. That was my only point.
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