Fakes, Frauds and Wanna BeeeZZZZ

[Jerry]

Given the standards at the time, they where studying good material. Everyone that went in was a good fighter, and many had good lineages.

The problem with claiming to be the best, or most effective is that there is always someone better.

Very simple test to see if what you are doing is effective or not. Drop as many rules as you can and go as hard as you can.

Which goes right back to my point. You said

"And beyond that it won't take long after starting training with them to realise what there skill level is, and what there knowledge is. "
​

Worse, this is in addition to a "ignore the liniage, they will either have it or not" statement (too lazy to go cut-n-paste).

On the one hand, you seem to be saying that a neophyte will quickly determine good from bad, but you are making good "the standard at the time", which would neccessitate that the neophyte have access to, and look at, that material; which many do not.

Many who came into the early UFCs didn't simply loose to ebtter fighters; they lost due to inherent flaws in their system / skillset... flaws that they had not seen in years of training and in a lot of competition. (BTW, are you suggesting that "it won't take long after starting training that anyone will engage in multiple limited-rules fights"?).

A neophyte does not have a feel of "standards" (that's what makes them a neophyte) and most will not go compete in NHB competitions sans the instructor telling them. They will be fooled... they are fooled. About once a month I used to see a long-time student from somewhere or another who was convincced he had "the stuff" when it came to material and did not... because the school he was studying at didn't have it to teach him.

 

[Andrew Green]

Standards at the time are all there is.

10 years from now everything that is being done now could be exposed as having inherent flaws in it.

All those fighters where still good fighters, and unless someone knew how to take advantage of those flaws they where meaningless.

Progress keeps things moving forward, but that doesn't mean the old stuff was useless, it just means we have improved on it.

 

[shesulsa]

On lineage:

When a very talented, well-educated, well-trained, long-time martial artist parts ways with his/her student (also a very talented, well-educated, well-trained, long-term martial artist) who has achieved considerable Dan ranking ... does this make the student no longer valid? What if they just have political differences?

So ... should this strike the pupil off the list of viable instructors? Is lineage TRULY broken here?

I liken this to a parent "disowning" a child. So ... father and son have a severe falling out and father refuses to recognize his son again. Well ... we can't exactly go about shoving the child back in, now can we? He lives and breathes and lives a legacy of his own making. And I'm sorry, but no amount of denial can remove that DNA coding.

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[VSanhodo]

In the town I used to live in, there was a fellow there who claimed to be, I fI remember correctly a 5th or 6th Dan in JuJitsu. He was one of the nicest ppl in the world, I went over to visit and in 2 minutes realized he was a BS artist but his ppl thought he walked on water. Now I do realize you will never be able to totally eliminate the all of the fakes and fraudes, but I do believe if instructors were required to some extend be able to prove their credentials. And if more ppl did their homework and checked up on these guys,there would be even fewer BS artist.
Now, Do i think there are ppl out there who have trained with instructors who are not well known and who have legit skill and knowledge? Of course but it has been my expierence that the vast majority of ppl out that dont about lineage and credientals are the same ppl who are the fakes and frauds. Again not all but most, so if the shoe fits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Years ago I had to have some knee surgery, I too the time to chekc up on my doctor, it wasnt hard, i have checked up on my lawyer and do backgroudn checks on my employees. Most often even if you trained with your dads, uncle's cousin, he or she had to have trained with someone who is known, not always but usually.
Why credientials and lineage. Simple if you go to hire someone for a job and their resume says University of XYZ and can be proven they really attended XYZ vs the guy who has certificate saying he attended Harvard, Yale, Stamford etc and nobody knows who he or she is. Hmmm I sure know who I would study under.
But hey if your happy studying whatever it is you study under whomever it is you study under, its no hair off my back one way or the other, I will sleep fine at night.
Chances are in 10 years nobody will know or remember you, your art or instructor. Whereas the names of the classics will never die.
Thanks for everyone taking the time to post
I appreciate everyones input and opinions.
Remember, I dont have to agree with you at all for your views, opinions and posts to be welcome.
San

 

[tshadowchaser]

How many of you that have schools have a new student or someone looking to syudy for the first time ask to see your papers, certs, etc.. How many new students to the arts would know if a person with 7th, 8th, or whatever degree cert. got it from a cert. factory or from their own computer.
Most people I have come to my school simply watch a class or two ask a few questions , usualy about tournaments, cost, and uniforms, then decide if they like what they see. If they seem interested I talk to them about the system, where it came from and a little about my background. By the time I get half way through talking to them I can see they have no idea of what I'm saying or why I am saying it.
They only want to know how long it takes to be able to defend themsleves, if we start fighting (sparing ) soon after they enter or wait a while, and how much out of pocket money it costs when they come on the floor.
I could tell them I'm a 18th dan twice removed on my mothers, brothers, cousins side of the GOfor Itall instructor and they would not know if that statement was ligit or not. All they would see was what happened on the floor, and maybe a look at my strips on my belt.
Fakes, if they have a little knowledge and ability, and are willing to promote little Jonny every tow or three months will always have more students than me.

 

[shesulsa]

Interesting perspective, Tshadow, and excellent points.

I'm curious why no one wants to discuss clean breaks from an organization rather than the dirty laundry?

VsanHodo, may I ask who the instructor was in Florida that the WHRDA is 'after'? And I'm curious why you did not want to address my questions to you about your knowledge of this organization since you used this particular instructor and the WHRDA as examples?

 

[Marginal]

I'm more curious why after leaving an org, one would feel compelled to claim a 10th dan in another style. Leaving one style's one thing. Fraudulently claiming rank in another doesn't really scan well on the integrity scale, even if the styles are somewhat related.

 

[Adept]

Would be for the novices.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for boxing, kick-boxing, muay thai, etc.

 

[VSanhodo]

Interesting perspective, Tshadow, and excellent points.

I happen to agree with you on this one Shadaow, I cant think of a time when someone walked into one of my schools and looked at my certificates or really cared what was on them. Most ppl as you mentioned want to see it, feel it, taste it and expierence so to speak, they could careless about credientials and lineage. Personally I do and encourage ppl to take them time to check ppl out.
Tournaments are flash dont impress me at all.
There are wayyyyyy to many ppl out there who look real fancy and are turly nice ppl who truly believe they are teaching really really good martial arts. And frankly I dont really have a problem with this type of person who are honestly trying to make a living. but those who are knowingly commiting fraud by falsely advertising and making up BS lineage and credientals those are the ppl I hope will get exsposed.

I'm curious why no one wants to discuss clean breaks from an organization rather than the dirty laundry?


I agree with you on this one. but sadly like the news nobody wants to watch GNN (Good News Network) they would rather watch CNN Criminal News Network. Bad News sells


VsanHodo, may I ask who the instructor was in Florida that the WHRDA is 'after'? And I'm curious why you did not want to address my questions to you about your knowledge of this organization since you used this particular instructor and the WHRDA as examples?

Sure your more than welcome to ask, I wont answer but your welcome to ask. In all of my years of posting in various forums and i life in general I try my very vest to not downgrade ppl nor bash them. Right now this matter is between the HWD HQ and this fellow..
Now why did I use him and them as examples?? I didnt, I sued them as fact. This guy lives in the central Florida. My knowledge of this orginazation is I would have to admit somewhat limited but I know enough ppl whom I can and have asked prior to e mailing them to learn more about them. One of hte things I did leave out and will mentin now, On this guys certificates which I have pics of, Mr Lee's signature is very clear and in an e mail I recieved from the HWD HQ they say this certificate and signature are both fakes.
If you read any of my previous posts or threads you will see I dont and will never use persons real names. Unless someone else mentions their name first. Then I will but otherwise I wont. Gossip is like soft soft soap, mostly Lie. I try to do my research before writting to a group or even posting a thread.
I hope all this helps,
Thanks for taking the time to reply and post.

San

 

[terryl965]

Shesulsa, I will try and answer why dirty loundry is all people care about and the break-up that occurs. In my Art of TKD there are so many big headed egotistical, I'm the best that the room cannot fit them, that being said insults start to fly and the next thing you know is the guy saying you know nothing and for twenty year you've been training side by side. I have no clue when a difference arrives one just can't say that is your opion and I can see your way but I do not agree and still be friend and MA brothers, but the new generation of MA are loss for they have no Humility or Respect for each other they see this as a money making machine and a sport not a Art anymore. Over the forty something years I have been involved in MA each year the qualification goes down and the age of Master are a joke, how can someone in there twentys be a Master of there Art please they are still in Diapers, that does not mean they are not great MA but Master please, everytime I disagree with one they baD MOUTH ME AND SAY i KNOW NOTHING FORGET THTA I HAVE BEEN AROUND LONGER THAN THEY HAVE BEEN ALIVE, THERE EGO'S GET THE BEST OF THEM. Sorry for the big print.

Terry lee Stoker

 

[shesulsa]

So what about the lineage? If a person trains with an SGM for years and obtains considerable Dan ranking from SGM (who runs an organization) and needs to make a clean break of things, IS LINEAGE TRULY BROKEN?? I'd like people's opinions on this.

Sure your more than welcome to ask, I wont answer but your welcome to ask. In all of my years of posting in various forums and i life in general I try my very vest to not downgrade ppl nor bash them. Right now this matter is between the HWD HQ and this fellow..
Now why did I use him and them as examples?? I didnt, I sued them as fact. This guy lives in the central Florida. My knowledge of this orginazation is I would have to admit somewhat limited but I know enough ppl whom I can and have asked prior to e mailing them to learn more about them. One of hte things I did leave out and will mentin now, On this guys certificates which I have pics of, Mr Lee's signature is very clear and in an e mail I recieved from the HWD HQ they say this certificate and signature are both fakes.
If you read any of my previous posts or threads you will see I dont and will never use persons real names. Unless someone else mentions their name first. Then I will but otherwise I wont. Gossip is like soft soft soap, mostly Lie. I try to do my research before writting to a group or even posting a thread.

I respect your consideration in not naming names here.

Since the topic of Hwarang Do is near and dear to my heart, I would very much like to exchange PMs with you for some further discussion about this specific individual. It might do me good to say at this point that I am not affiliated with the WHRDA.

I would also be very interested in your opinion of my analogy of the father and the son as well as your opinion on the politics of KMA if you don't mind, sir.

 

[RanaHarmamelda]

So what about the lineage? If a person trains with an SGM for years and obtains considerable Dan ranking from SGM (who runs an organization) and needs to make a clean break of things, IS LINEAGE TRULY BROKEN?? I'd like people's opinions on this.

I'll bite. This particular experience is near and dear to my heart...

I say no. Lineage is not broken. However -- I also say that, in a traditional martial arts system, if you break from the main lineage, you should probably not use the same name, or, at least, the same system identifiers. I.E., you shouldn't claim membership in the particular HwaRangDo group, although perhaps you coul dstill say that is what you teach, since, you know, it is what you teach.

*shrug* That's what I think, anyway.

 

[shesulsa]

I'll bite. This particular experience is near and dear to my heart...

I say no. Lineage is not broken. However -- I also say that, in a traditional martial arts system, if you break from the main lineage, you should probably not use the same name, or, at least, the same system identifiers. I.E., you shouldn't claim membership in the particular HwaRangDo group, although perhaps you coul dstill say that is what you teach, since, you know, it is what you teach.

*shrug* That's what I think, anyway.

I will be signing off for the weekend in just a few moments but look forward to returning to this conversation on Monday.

Until then, I'd like to ask ... why not use the same name of the style and not claim association with the official organization? There are other traditional styles which use the same name but are very different and are under differing organizations.

In the particular case of HRD, the name of the style is copyrighted, which is rare, so obviously it cannot be used unless affiliation with the organization is intact, thus the 'renegades' cannot advertise the style.

My point was more along the lines of organizations and affiliations that claim no affiliation with prior pupil who achieved considerable rank and left of his/her own accord because of political differences, not false claims, illegal actions, etcetera. And all anyone else who does not know these people can go on is the claims of the organization which may or may not be false.

So .. my point is that just because an organization or Kwan or whatever says one thing, it doesn't mean it's true, necessarily, any more than what the ousted or renegades claim may or may not be true.

 

[shesulsa]

No activity on this while I was away.

Does everyone mostly agree with my last statement on this?

 

[The Kai]

If you think of an organization as a teaching/learning entity, when a particular person breaks off,is his/her trainingh complete?

What if the organization shifts focus, will off shoot instructors still be in sync??

 

[shesulsa]

If you think of an organization as a teaching/learning entity, when a particular person breaks off,is his/her trainingh complete?

One's training is never complete.

What if the organization shifts focus, will off shoot instructors still be in sync??

Probably not, but who cares? For each teacher, there is a different focus, a special nuance. In most cases, off-shoot instructors have already developed their focus and their reasoning for being "out-of-sync" may very well be quite valid.

I suppose if you want a militaristic orientation to your martial art, then I can see where your point becomes important, but it is also important to remember that it is not necessarily required for quality control purposes.

 

[tshadowchaser]

So what about the lineage? If a person trains with an SGM for years and obtains considerable Dan ranking from SGM (who runs an organization) and needs to make a clean break of things, IS LINEAGE TRULY BROKEN?? I'd like people's opinions on this.

No the lineage is still there. Simply because there is an instructor who trained you and you are training someone else. You may not be using the same system name and hopefully not the same patch, but your training came from the "man/woman" and that will always be true.

Now there may be problems if you left the organization under other that friendly terms, but true rank given (not honory) can not be denied. Your students gain from the knowledge given to you (and you should be proud of where it came from)

 

[shesulsa]

Now there may be problems if you left the organization under other that friendly terms, but true rank given (not honory) can not be denied. Your students gain from the knowledge given to you (and you should be proud of where it came from)

Testify!

 

[arnisador]

Lineage is lineage. You can take away the recognition of rank, but you can't change who taught what to whom. Lineage isn't broken, though people sometimes like to surgically excise a person from the art's or organization's written history.

 

[psi_radar]

The testimony of his supposed teachers is troubling, as is always the self-designation of "grandmaster". That said, look up Hwarang do in a search on this site and you'll find lots of interesting stuff about that organization giving a bum rap to those who leave the organization.

Since Martial Arts aren't regulated, there's always the chance that even the most "credentialed" artists are frauds. However, the proof is in the pudding. The unfortunate part is that the inexperienced can't always distinguish between the highly skilled and the skilled. I say, as long as the price is right and there is no contract (or it's short), then buyer beware, get what you can, and if it's not right for you, move on.