Con-Artist Martial Artists

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh god, I’m really glad there are no recordings of me from 25-30 years ago spouting off about martial arts matters that I thought I understood but really didn’t.

There's at least one forum somewhere that has me pontificating about NGA's youth back almost that long ago, Tony. I hope never to come across those posts.

 

[JR 137]

Yeah and there is the Bruce Lee guy for one. Just over 2 years WC training came to the U.S. began teaching a martial art he created using his own name a few years later he then created another one.

As Tony stated there are others.

That guy’s only saving grace was he didn’t give himself a belt.

 

[pdg]

That guy’s only saving grace was he didn’t give himself a belt.

How did he keep his trousers up then?

 

[Martial D]

How did he keep his trousers up then?

Chinese suspenders.

 

[Buka]

I think you probably agree with this part, don't you?

Don't go playing word games with me, brother. You warn the newcomers about fraud busting then you go fraud bust the entire Gracie lineage. Uh unh.

 

[pdg]

Chinese suspenders.

That brings up all sorts of wrong images (consider what suspenders are in the UK )

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Don't go playing word games with me, brother. You warn the newcomers about fraud busting then you go fraud bust the entire Gracie lineage. Uh unh.

Not at all. I gave an example of why the typical standards people often use for designating “frauds” can be inadequate to tell the whole story.

Suppose someone were to come on this forum asking advice on a dojo they were considering attending. We did some digging and discovered that the head instructor had less than 2 years of training under a qualified teacher (and no rank) in the style they were teaching, didn’t know (or misrepresented) even the most basic history of the art, but were presenting themselves as a great champion and expert. Most of us would advise the student to give the school a pass.

And if we did so, we might be leading them to miss out on getting in on the formative years of BJJ.

Tweak the story a little bit and we might be advising them to miss out on training with Bruce Lee or some other great martial artist.

Helio and his brothers may have started out with minimal qualifications and making wildly exaggerated claims about their accomplishments. But they did the work that very few people have to make themselves into the real deal and to help forge a martial art which is as effective as any on the planet.

Someone who judges an instructor entirely on their paper qualifications or the legitimacy of their claimed lineage may filter out a bunch of chumps, but they may also dismiss some of the greats as well. This is why it’s a good idea to realize such heuristics don’t tell you everything important. That is the point I was trying to make. (I suppose I could have used some other art to make the point, but the fact that my primary martial arts lineage is the Gracie lineage should suggest that I had some goal other than just trashing that lineage.)

 

[Tez3]

That brings up all sorts of wrong images (consider what suspenders are in the UK )

I've pointed this out before over the years, you have to post a photo of UK suspenders, they love that!

 

[jkdgenius]

Yeah and there is the Bruce Lee guy for one. Just over 2 years WC training came to the U.S. began teaching a martial art he created using his own name a few years later he then created another one.

As Tony stated there are others.

The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That brings up all sorts of wrong images (consider what suspenders are in the UK )

And here, braces are for straightening teeth. So, funny over here if we fix that sentence for you.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??

Most aren’t. (Then again, most conventionally qualified instructors aren’t either.)

I do examine an instructor’s qualifications as a first pass on evaluating whether it’s worth giving them a try. It’s a useful heuristic. I just think it’s good to remember that heuristics aren’t infallible.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??

Tony's point is that the "how many" cuts both ways. How many people with "too little experience" are bad instructors? How many of the "greats" had too little experience?

 

[pdg]

I've pointed this out before over the years, you have to post a photo of UK suspenders, they love that!

I'm not doing an image search for "Bruce Lee in suspenders"...

 

[hoshin1600]

 

[hoshin1600]

think about this ..Choki Motobu was pretty much self taught. he was a hooligan who no teacher wanted as a student. one teacher took pitty on him and taught him Naihanchi and passai. the bulk of his martial art education was peeking through the fence at his older brother as he studied martial arts.

Kanbun Uechi and Kanryo Higaonna only trained for ten years before becoming "masters" and founders of karate styles. these same styles we consider the standard for what is legit.

heres a question ,,, we consider the old masters as great martial artists... we didnt train with them. what if in todays standard they actually sucked?

 

[_Simon_]

I'm not doing an image search for "Bruce Lee in suspenders"...

I tried, all i could find:

 

[_Simon_]

 

[pdg]

I tried, all i could find:

Ok, now try with actual suspenders

 

[_Simon_]

Ok, now try with actual suspenders

View attachment 21403

Ahhhhhhh okay hahaha, I think I'll pass XD

 

[Headhunter]

The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??

Potentially all of them could be