Can people in safe jobs be better with weapons than martial artists and violence professionals?
- Thread starter 7BallZ
- Start date
More an indictment of her upbringing and mental state than the fact she worked in an abattoir, that just gave her a means. She could have worked anywhere or even not at all and would still have killed.
Metaphor:
: a word or phrase for one thing that is used to refer to another thing in order to show or suggest that they are similar
: an object, activity, or idea that is used as a symbol of something else
1. Nothing about the Anime knife fighting killer Butcher is similar to Butcher's in real life.
2. Nothing about that Anime character is used as a symbol of a real life Butcher.
From original post
"However looking back now as I rewatched the series and after reading Marc MacYoung's books and his NNDS website, I somewhat have an understanding of why Edward freezed as he did (and why the Butcher was so aggressive)."
1. Edward is not a real person. Edward's choice of freezing was because the writer decided to make him freeze. Edward cannot act independently of the writer. What did Edward do today? Did he see a movie? Did he eat a hamburger? Did Edward breath air today? Did Edward pump real blood through his body? Edward doesn't exist he's a character that an author made and how he reacts is 100% dependent on how the author thinks he should act.
Show me where such a fight happens in real life. You know what else is BS about fiction? How King Kong and Godzilla never pooped in the streets. That's BS. Wild animals that don't poop? That's not real. Oh wait. That's right. It's fiction so animals like King Kong and Godzilla aren't real and they aren't bound by what's possible in real life.
Once again Barry. A person that's doesn't exist in real life is being desensitized?
Then he goes on to explain how this imaginary character displays a role in modern western society and humanist ethnics? Really? All of that from an Anime Show? Yet not one real world reference.
Really? he sees a "trained butcher's" finesse in a fictional Anime Character that doesn't exist in the real word. Show me where a butcher swings his cleaver nonstop?
Nothing about any of this is metaphor
I can't believe that some of you can't tell the difference between made up characters and reality. When you start talking about you understand how a made up character feels or why they do things in a book, then you need to get yourself checked out. The only reason a fictional character acts the way that they do is because the author makes them that way.
Jumping Jehosaphat. I feel like I'm in a loony bin. I like anime, but you guys know they're not real, don't you?
oftheherd1
Senior Master
First, let me congratulate you on such a longwinded, rambling post. Quite an accomplishment for a thirteen year old. BTW is that the norm where you live, apprenticing as a butcher at that age? Of course I am assuming you are a butcher apprentice as you said you were a butcher in training.
I have no idea how you are being taught butchering. I have watched neighbors do it, and have watched and assisted in human autopsies. If you are having such trouble with your knives cutting, perhaps you should try knapping flint. Or, maybe not, as that also requires a lot of skill and practice. But it will produce razor sharp cutting instruments. Given a sharp cutting instrument, and a knowledge of anatomy, it is surprisingly easy to remove internal organs, animal or human. I don't know where you get your ideas, but sorry, not in reality.
I guess that statement comes from anime? that butchers and slaughterers work together, or maybe that is what is done in your area? The animals were killed in one area, and moved through the plant on rails, and different actions were performed, from skinning to cutting the carcass open, to removing different organs. I never heard of the mental gymnastics you describe regarding slaughterers or butchers, but perhaps so. I never worked in a packing plant (what we called "slaughter houses" when I was a kid. We had two major packing plants, one medium, and one small one where I grew up. My father was a government meat inspector working in all of those plants on a rotating basis. He was allowed to take family on tours.
That's a really good story. Where did you get it? If It is true, you might want to consider a different profession. I killed a lot of chickens when I was a kid, and watched cousins, aunts, and uncles, as well as my parents do it. No such thing ever happened. Of course we never slit their throats. We cut off their head, or one cousin would put a piece of wood on the upper neck and quickly pull the legs, severing the upper neck and head from its body. Sorry, your story simply sounds fabricated.
Truly? How many soldiers in a combat arm do you know?
You're kidding, right? I asked how many soldiers you know, how many butchers do you know? How many martial artists do you know? I am not a butcher, but I am a martial artist. I can tell you that your statement is just plain wrong.
A lot jumbled up above. But this I can tell you, some people seem better at killing without being killed than others. The French resistance in WWII showed what local resistance fighters can do. Of course you seldom hear the stories of those who died trying to get good, only those who did get good at killing and surviving. Also, amongst different individuals, trained fighters or not, some seem to have better reflexes, quicker realization of how to inflict damage or death with or without weapons. As well, trained fighters or not, some seem less able to react quickly, even in defense of their own life.
All the above to say don't start trying to live in both the real world and the anime world. If you insist in doing so, be sure you can keep them separate. They don't seem to mix well.
I have no idea how you are being taught butchering. I have watched neighbors do it, and have watched and assisted in human autopsies. If you are having such trouble with your knives cutting, perhaps you should try knapping flint. Or, maybe not, as that also requires a lot of skill and practice. But it will produce razor sharp cutting instruments. Given a sharp cutting instrument, and a knowledge of anatomy, it is surprisingly easy to remove internal organs, animal or human. I don't know where you get your ideas, but sorry, not in reality.
I guess that statement comes from anime? that butchers and slaughterers work together, or maybe that is what is done in your area? The animals were killed in one area, and moved through the plant on rails, and different actions were performed, from skinning to cutting the carcass open, to removing different organs. I never heard of the mental gymnastics you describe regarding slaughterers or butchers, but perhaps so. I never worked in a packing plant (what we called "slaughter houses" when I was a kid. We had two major packing plants, one medium, and one small one where I grew up. My father was a government meat inspector working in all of those plants on a rotating basis. He was allowed to take family on tours.
That's a really good story. Where did you get it? If It is true, you might want to consider a different profession. I killed a lot of chickens when I was a kid, and watched cousins, aunts, and uncles, as well as my parents do it. No such thing ever happened. Of course we never slit their throats. We cut off their head, or one cousin would put a piece of wood on the upper neck and quickly pull the legs, severing the upper neck and head from its body. Sorry, your story simply sounds fabricated.
Truly? How many soldiers in a combat arm do you know?
You're kidding, right? I asked how many soldiers you know, how many butchers do you know? How many martial artists do you know? I am not a butcher, but I am a martial artist. I can tell you that your statement is just plain wrong.
A lot jumbled up above. But this I can tell you, some people seem better at killing without being killed than others. The French resistance in WWII showed what local resistance fighters can do. Of course you seldom hear the stories of those who died trying to get good, only those who did get good at killing and surviving. Also, amongst different individuals, trained fighters or not, some seem to have better reflexes, quicker realization of how to inflict damage or death with or without weapons. As well, trained fighters or not, some seem less able to react quickly, even in defense of their own life.
All the above to say don't start trying to live in both the real world and the anime world. If you insist in doing so, be sure you can keep them separate. They don't seem to mix well.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yo are being too literal. We all know the video was fiction. It was being used to forward an idea.
Which is how art works.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
So you are sugesting not all butchers are homicidal maniacs?
what's the idea?
Marc MacYoung invented (or at least uses it enough to have introduced it to many noobs to RBSD) the term "violence professionals". Just a few looks at some of the articles he wrote at allexpert and you'll understand what he means by th term.
Just one link at the basics.
Killing for a Living: The Traumatic Consequences of Slaughterhouse Work - P1/2
ANd I can point at many more but its already late and I have work tomorrow.
Marc MacYoung is an experienced rancher and as I stated he wrote before that farmers are tend to be far more effective than many blackbelts and even inexperienced recruits in the military and police in levels of violence beneath shooting someone with a gun. In fact he even wrote one time about how ghetto people in violent urban environment are far more effective at detecting being stalked and reacting to sneak attacks with effective defensive movements than even many special ops such as Navy Seal, Special Forces (Green Berets), Delta Force, Marine Force Recon, etc.
And how far more Special forces and police who lack experience in the hoods have a much higher rate of being slaughtered by a surprise attack than a ghetto black kids whos lived in the most violent parts of New York all his life.
Firs tof all the bird I killed wasn't a chicken, it was a local gaming breed in Algeria but i never learned the name. The local farmers who I lived with for months had an MO of draining the bird's bllood by cutting its neck before going on to chop the rest of the body into meat.
Secondly I only used the Full Metal Alchemist example to prove a basic analogy to my message. Its the same reason I also used the Battle of Algiers. I already mentioned in my first post (if you actually read it) that Barry's techniques aren't necessarily the same per say as what I've been taught in class but its accurate in portraying the power, finesse, and danger someone who's worked with cutting animals open alive before as second nature.
Take that as opposed to movies which frequently show only violence professionals (such as soldiers, spies, Mafiaso, martial artists who specialized in sports and exhibition methodology, and so on) as being capable of knowing how to hit someone in the neck to kill them.
The few films out there which show people who are not involved in violent jobs but in jobs which utilize knives, axes, and other tools associated with street violence and real warfare historically and even MODERN MILITARY are getting bashed because violence professionals are calling BS that a lumberjack can quickly dispatch an SF commando with his ax or how a peasant farmer in Egypt who skins animals for a living can slice local policemen up so easily as though he's a master of martial arts.
So many soldiers, cops, and martial artists and RBSD criticize fictional portrayals as unrealistic.
Well in fact having lived with relatives in Algeria, I am just amazed how they can use knives far more effectively than many blackbelts in the west and even military personnel in my hometown.
And not just in quickly opening apart animals alive (which have great difficulty especially if they are aggressive beasts like hyenas) but they can move with such swiftness and silence that I am often WTF at how they can get past even policemen undetected when they are smuggling in alcohol home.
Not even getting into my uncle who tookout the MMA blackbelt with such speed before the MMA guy realized he got whacked by a hammer (and this happened in America).
Thats what I'm questioning. About the "need" to take special forces knife instruction or Budo classes making you have the physical finesse and strength and knowing how to swing your weapon properly.
Because despite the people I know never having takena single class on how to use a Bo staff, just from their jobs they can swing their tools in such effective manner that are even far more devastating than how trained martial artists and violence professionals are with tools (such as how I witnessed a shepard during mys tay in Algeria knock out aa few thugshug who was trying to threaten him with a knife using his home-made shepard crook passed down by his dad).
I was really impressed with how accurate The Battle of Algiers portrayed farmers being lethal forces given enough motivation (and being better than soldiers at military specific skills like stealth)-because despite how angry it made French war veterans, I lived with Algerian lower classes and they used these skills daily often because its necessary in their lifestyle for surviving another day).
Hell even in the Urban areas I visited, because of the violence frequenting many Algerian cities, some of my relatives are far superior a detecting being stalked and are better than most RBSD instructors at avoiding **** before it starts and defending themselves with a last minute block in an ambush (to quote Marc MacYoung's discussion and comments about ghetto people being superior than war veterans and other violence professionals at spotting sneak attacks and shady people).
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Show the data that supports this statement.
I suppose you realise that many of us talk to Marc McYoung? some here train with him and know him well.
I take it you know that MMA doesn't have a belt system? You said it was an 'MMA fan boy', now it's a 'blackbelt'?
As for the rest, it's fine to imagine things but it doesn't make it the truth.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Knife fighting? No. Using a knife to carve vital areas, muscle, and ligament? Yes. Knife fighting and butchering aren't synonymous, though butchering can teach some important lessons but there's vastly more to knife fighting than just knowing where and how to cut.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
lklawson
Grandmaster
Cutting animals isn't the same thing as knife fighting. Butchering is highly informative, but there's a lot more to knife fighting than that.
For certain narrowly defined sets of "using," yes. For broader applications, maybe not.
Totally irrelevant to anything having to do with real life. Any similarities between anime and reality are purely coincidental.
Marc MacYoung is selling a product, but he is certainly correct that there are martial artists with inflated views of their own abilities. The "quotes" you provide, however, sound more like 9-year-old kids than serious martial artists.
Whatever you've heard, you've misunderstood.
In 34 years of martial arts training, I don't think I've heard a single martial artist criticize the idea of a protagonist who is a farmer or some such prevailing against the villains in a fight. I've encountered criticism of unrealistic fight choreography, but that fight choreography has nothing to do with the way a working man would use the tools of his trade.
I have no particular knowledge about the psychological state of butchers or slaughterhouse workers. However I am disinclined to just take your word for it since 99% of what you have posted on this forum has been completely off-base. Can you provide links?
Sure. If you match up a cane field worker who swings a machete for a living all day every day against an accountant who trains a martial art involving a sword for 3 hours a week, my money is on the cane field worker. Even though the field worker may not have trained specifically in the combat application of the machete, he will likely have a huge advantage in speed, power, accuracy, control, and mental and physical toughness.
That's just one example. In other matchups the equations may work out differently.
So? A "MMA fanboy punk" doesn't necessarily have any training, especially in defending unarmed against a lethal weapon (which a hammer certainly can be).
Now he's a "MMA black belt?" (And your cousin has become an uncle?)Disregarding the fact that MMA does not generally use a belt rank system, even a trained fighter is at a disadvantage when fighting unarmed against a weapon. A carpenter will probably swing a hammer faster and harder in a fight than most people, but a hammer is still a lethal weapon in even untrained hands.
If it were a match up just for 'fun' I think the field worker would most likely prevail but here I also think the old adage comes into play that it's the fight in the dog that counts. It really depends on the reason for the fight, if the office worker was fighting for his life that adds an element that can outweigh the advantage of being able to use a tool for work.
There's so much conjecture however than unless we can make a case by case review we could be here forever wondering if this is better or that is. The OP's premise is flawed for so many reasons. Assuming what happens in fiction is also fact is a dangerous way to judge real life situations. Some fiction writers do immaculate research, usually in legal and medical and sometimes scientific fields or in researching locations of books but the protagonists in fiction are manipulated by the writer's imagination to fit scenarios that entertain, amuse or excite those being told the story. James Bond for example is very much Ian Fleming's creation, the British Intelligence community is nothing like that of the books and films, John le Carre's books are much closer to the mark but are still fiction. For one thing the sheer tedium of intelligence work is left out. Any police officer will tell you that while there are days where 'excitement' happens it is nothing like the constant minute to minute action of police programmes and films.
The stuff I found about the mental damage was related to slaughterhouse workers who have to actually kill the animal and not to those who cut or clean the meat after the animal was dead. The information is very scarce because I had to weed out all of the animal rights activism that use the argument "slaughterhouses create murders" in order to find out what was really going on.
I looked at other studies as well and they discovered that animal abuse does not mean the person will become a murder. The research stated that a person's willingness to hurt or kill an animal or human exists before any animal or humans are harmed. The study also took a look at how many serial killers actually tortured or killed animals and they found that it was only a small percentage who killed animals before killing people. There are some serial killers who are actually animal lovers.
They also found that abusing animals wasn't a one way ticket to becoming a serial kicker. They discovered that the reason animals were abused in the first place was because the person was violent in the first place. Most animals that were abused were from woman's domestic violence where the husband used the pets as leverage. Other animal abusers also didn't turn into serial killers. The cause of being a serial killer had something to do with how the brain attaches moral values to actions...or something like that. I stopped reading after that point. Because it was basically starting to boil down to, abusing animals do not determine that someone will become a serial killer or even violent. The human's ability to be violent is something that is already there. How people are able to control those tendencies for violence is what determines who will become a serial killer.
The research is good news because if it was the other way around, where killing something makes the person a serial killer, then solider, police officers, people who have killed in self-defense, hunters, kids who shoot squirrels, birds, rabbits with BB guns, fishermen, people who live in tribes in the jungle, people who "put animals to sleep", exterminators who kill pests, and bug killers would all be on a one track train ride to becoming a serial killer.
Thanks for making the effort to do some actual research. Given the OP's track record, I wasn't going bother trying to figure out where he got his "information" from.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
A lot less to knife fighting the you are generally taught?
I mean I get my krambit and learn to trap,lock and throw. Then I get my rubber knife out and all I ever did was slash stab and withdraw.
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