wingchun100
Senior Master
Here are a few, although the guy running this channel spends most of his time on Frank Dux.
Con-Artist Martial Artists
- Thread starter jkdgenius
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CB Jones
Senior Master
Sounds great.
Unrealistic for most kids, but attainable for the select few with great drive.
"Less than stellar" is a relative term.
I think part of the problem (aside from those people who deliberately lie about their background and qualifications) is understanding what a rank actually means.
As has been repeated many times on this forum by many people, a rank certification is nothing more than a statement by somebody (or somebodies) that a certain person has achieved certain requirements relative to the art in question.
If you don't know what those requirements are or why you should respect the opinion of the issuing authority, then the rank tells you nothing about the martial artist in question.
I'll use my own dan ranks as examples.
I hold a black belt in BJJ. This rank basically means that Mike O'Donnell and Carlson Gracie Jr were willing to put their reputations behind the idea that I am an expert* in grappling (with a focus on ground fighting) and am a fully qualified instructor in the art of BJJ.
Why should you give weight to the opinions of those two? A little investigation will reveal that both men have fought professionally in MMA and done well in grappling competition. Both have coached successful MMA and BJJ competitors. Mike's knowledge and skills are vouched for (via rank) by Carlson Jr. Carlson Jr's knowledge and skills are vouched for (via rank) by his father, Carlson Gracie senior.
Why should you give weight to the opinion of Carlson Gracie senior? Some research will show that he was the greatest jiu-jitsu fighter of his generation. In addition, he trained many of the top MMA and BJJ competitors of the following generation.
Carlson's knowledge and skills were vouched for (via rank) by his father, Carlos Gracie. Given his accomplishments, he didn't really need that validation. If anything, Carlos is validated by Carlson's achievements.
*("Expert" is a subjective term, but some research will show that the rank typically corresponds to what a moderately talented person could achieve with 10-15 years of hard work and thousands of hours of sparring. Expectations include a consistently demonstrated ability to handle bigger, stronger opponents on the mat and an in-depth knowledge of technique.)
I hold a black belt in a style of American kickboxing. This means that my skills are vouched for by Oscar Kallet.
What skills and why should you care about Oscar's word on the matter? That's a bit harder to nail down.
Most kickboxing gyms don't use a belt rank system, so that's no help. Oscar himself only used a belt system for a few years and awarded black belt to a handful of individuals, so I can't even say exactly what the standards were, other than "about where I was at the time." I could spar somewhat competently, I went through a tough test, and I had a couple of amateur fights.
As far as Oscar's qualifications to judge my qualifications: he was a competent professional kickboxer whose highest professional achievement was a New York State championship. (Under the auspices of either the WKA or PKA, I forget which.) He has a black belt under Ray Casal (better known for coaching boxing than kickboxing these days) and instructor licenses in Muay Thai under Chai Sirisute (founder of the TBA) and Sakasem Kanthawong (multiple time World Champion). If you've done Muay Thai or MMA around the Dayton area, you probably know Oscar. Otherwise you probably don't have a good way to validate his judgment.
I also hold a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (or "ninjutsu" as it was marketed at the time). This means that about 30 years ago Larry Turner and Kevin Schneider judged I was deserving of the rank.
What does that rank mean? Good question. Rank standards in the Bujinkan are notoriously inconsistent and even higher dan ranks have sometimes been awarded to people with ... limited training time and technical ability (to be polite). Kevin and Larry are verifiable high-ranked instructors in the Bujinkan, although they held much lower ranks back then. The best guess you could probably make concerning my rank is that I could demonstrate the fundamentals of the Bujinkan system with a compliant training partner to the standards of a couple of instructors who had been training for about 8 years themselves at that point.
Three arts, three very different meanings for the same belt color.
In some cases, it could be just about impossible for an outsider to even make a good guess as to what a given rank might mean. If you aren't acquainted with the standards for a given art or instructor, then you have no idea of what you might infer from an instructors rank. If you can't discover who awarded the rank, then you can't judge what it means. If you don't know anything about the expertise of the person awarding the rank, then you don't know what it means. We won't even consider ranks which are self-awarded or awarded by "peers" outside the art. (Okay, they mean "I think I'm awesome" or "my buddies think I'm awesome." This may be true, but we have no way of knowing unless we have some independent method for evaluating the person's ability, which makes the rank itself redundant.)
Talking about my time in the Bujinkan reminded me of another example of the variable meaning of ranks.
It's not uncommon to see snarky comments about the plethora of martial arts instructors who have apparently created their own systems just so they can claim the coveted rank of 10th dan as the founder of the art.
I occasionally run across mention of some of my old training partners from the Bujinkan. Those who have stayed within the organization are mostly 15th dan now. As far as I can tell, the average time to that rank (which doesn't even exist in most arts) is probably about 25 years.
It's not uncommon to see snarky comments about the plethora of martial arts instructors who have apparently created their own systems just so they can claim the coveted rank of 10th dan as the founder of the art.
I occasionally run across mention of some of my old training partners from the Bujinkan. Those who have stayed within the organization are mostly 15th dan now. As far as I can tell, the average time to that rank (which doesn't even exist in most arts) is probably about 25 years.
OP
OP
jkdgenius
Yellow Belt
Mark you have taken me out of context and your opinion isn't talking about the same issue I am! If you read my posts properly then you'd see I was just using karate as an example (but I have actually studied Shotokan either way so thank you for judging a book by its cover). I am not on about kids that have learning disabilities or aren't as keen etc etc, that was just a ridiculous comment! Again read properly and you'd see I was on about friends children and specified about the fact that these are kids that do want to grow to be good in competition. I have no qwarms about how you decide to reach out about you not having competition fighters in your school, personally I'd not choose to train in a school like that myself as I like to get a beat down every now and then, only thing that keeps you sharp! Please don't take that out of context again, use brain, engage humour receptors?? Nobody made me anything, but like you choose to run your school the way you do, I choose to train at schools that don't run the way yours does.Excuse me but who made you the kids QA inspector? Yes I've seen plenty of rubbish over my 30+ years in the martial arts as well as getting to train with a lot of high level instructors. So yeah I do know the difference. However after teaching steadily for the past 12 years (plus about 5 years total time back in the 90's/2000 era) if some one takes a look at me now you'll see a over weight, older, middle aged guy who doesn't kick anymore (well high that is), compared to the younger TKD high kickers out there. It's very easy to write me (us old timers) off. If you look in my school you'll see no trophies, no 30 year old grand champion ship title belts etc. etc. Just an old guy doing the daily grind of teaching 5 nights days a week plus getting in extra training when I can.
However your comment about handing out belts like candy and telling the parents how great their kids are doing is why I've responded. From an outsider point of view you look at some of my students and you might think why am I telling that kid he doing great or that parent that the kid is doing well. Their technique is wobbly, their attention isn't focused, the kata looks off somewhat, why is the instructor high fiving the kid for getting through it?
Listen the kids who are the underdogs, who have learning issues, who have discipline, physical challenges are the ones who need the martial arts. They aren't going to be the next Chuck Norris, or world champion, they might not be my next black belts, they might not be there in class tomorrow, who knows. There is nothing wrong with celebrating or letting their parents know when they have had a good day in class, of telling the kid that I'm proud of them for getting through a kata something they have been struggling with for several classes. What some kids master quite easily others will struggle for weeks and months, some kids have great athletic ability while others don't. But both can be giving all that they have towards trying to learn the technique.
As an outsider you wouldn't know the struggles or the back story of the students, as an instructor I do (for my students that is). For an outsider or a guest observer to be telling my student's parents as you loudly leave the dojo that this or that is crap, just because you don't think what they are doing or being shown is worthy. Like I said who appointed you this QA position for all karate schools. When you are a JKD guy at that. You don't even do karate.
My students might not be a world champion some day; sometimes though it is enough just to let them have a positive experience to the end of a hellish day at school or at home.
I watched that at work tonight. [shhh, don't squeal]
I don't usually feel this, but the guy narrating....I so wanted to push him into a swimming pool. And maybe not let him out.
I have all kinds of awesome legitimate rank. I've been promoted in the kitchen of my old house. Been promoted at a tournament. Was originally promoted to Black Belt by a phony baloney fool. Just got promoted by mail a couple months ago. [actually, on the phone]
I be rocking.
I be rocking.
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hoshin1600
Senior Master
even totally legit styles and people get promoted under some rather shady circumstances. ive been witness to a high level promotion where the recipient paid an Okinawan master to come to the US and give a seminar and be promoted. this was not his instructor so what right did he have to promote him other than the monetary Fee?
rank is a funny thing. its total BS but at the same time we all need the credential and look down or up to people based on their rank and how and when they attained it.
rank is a funny thing. its total BS but at the same time we all need the credential and look down or up to people based on their rank and how and when they attained it.
That would be accurate. The issue is that you need either a high reputation of working with kids, or a lot of students, to find those few. A small program using that standard is likely to have only a few students, who remain at their ranks until their teens. It might be better just to not have ranks for kids.
Agreed. My point about BJJ was that in many systems I wouldn't expect a blue belt (or whatever the first colored belt is in the system) to be as capable at instructing as many BJJ blue belts are. As a credential, the blue belt doesn't work well (unless, of course, someone knows this about BJJ). I used the term "stellar" purposely, as the highest level credentials in BJJ are rarified - much more so than in some systems.
Some of that has gone on in groups that broke away from the NGAA (Nihon Goshin Aikido Association). For decades, NGA only had 5 dan ranks (I'm unsure whether this is the original setup, or simply the result of that being the highest rank attained by the NGAA head before the retirement of the head of the art). The head of the NGAA added a 6th at one point, but never used it (so, effectively still 5 dans). Some breakaway groups converted to a 10-dan system, raising their own ranks (or each other's, more accurately). I know of none yet who've gone to 6th or higher, but it's just a matter of time.
wingchun100
Senior Master
Yeah, his voice is annoying. Plus he doesn't know how to not catch his VERY frequent and deep inhalations on the microphone. Still, some of his comments are pretty damn comical.
None of my promotions (sub dan devel so far) have been awarded by my instructor - an instructor from a different school comes in for the colour gradings.
Dan level gradings are done at an entirely different location, by a panel of examiners who we've not been instructed by.
Two ways of looking at it - one is that the examiner doesn't get to see your 'usual' performance so they don't know if you're consistent.
Other way? It removes bias (/favouritism) and helps somewhat in maintaining consistency of dan holders.
I think this latter one is the reason some systems/organizations opt for testing panels beyond a certain point. Personally, I prefer instructor-awarded ranks, because those are the folks who should know the real story. Yeah, you'll get more variability between schools that way, and probably some who play favorites (in both giving and denying), but that's hard to avoid.
I don't take issue with either process, if it's handled fairly.
The only problem with instructor awarded rank is if/when the student equals or betters the instructor - are they then 'qualified' to promote someone past themselves?
In our system, someone can only promote another to 2-3 grades below their own (7th-9th are I believe pretty much honorary ranks awarded by committee) - I suppose the reason being they should then have adequate experience to assess the candidate fully rather than judging things they're still effectively learning themselves.
I'm not familiar with a situation where that's possible (just not within my experience). In the NGAA, it takes shodan to teach, and nidan is the last technical rank. To reach that rank, you have to train under a sandan or higher (usually traveling several times a year), and it's that sandan that does the promotion. In my curriculum, it takes shodan to get certified as a full instructor (award rank), and there are no higher technical ranks (in fact, no ranks beyond that - just instructor certification and senior instructor certification).
I know some styles/systems have technical requirements at several dan levels, and some recognize lower dan ranks as instructors. I don't see how someone would get the curriculum for those higher levels from someone who hasn't reached them, so they'd have to train under someone else for that.
Michele123
Green Belt
I kind of like this idea. Though come to think of in, my daughter likes to earn things so one of the driving factors for her right now is to earn rank. I'm not a huge fan of the kids holding the same rank as adults, much for the reasons that have already been stated in this thread. I do like that, for the little kids (4-7) at our school, the regular ranks are broken down into thirds. It takes much longer for them to test for regular ranks, but gives them validation for their hard work. My daughter has an orange stripe on her white belt. Essentially she is a white belt that basically knows 1/3 of the material to get to orange belt (the next full rank). She still had to study and go through a test to earn that rank. She is very proud of herself for getting there. I watched her test and was actually surprised at how much she knew. However, white belts are not expected to have much power in their techniques. They just need to understand the basic movements. This age group is not able to progress past two full belts until they age up into the youth class. They have to be old enough and strong enough to do the requirements for higher level ranks.
I do feel like the youth (7-14) probably don’t have as stringent requirements as they should, but I feel the same way about the adult colored belts. It seems, in this style/school/association that things don’t get really good until 1st/2nd Dan. At least from what I can observe as a 7th gup and using the lenses from my memory as a 1st Dan in a shotokan offshoot called "shutokan" (16 years ago) that didn’t allow 1st Dan testing until the age of 18. Though this is all much better than the McDojo we tried at first where the kids got a (electrical tape) stripe for every few classes they attended then a belt after a number of stripes. No proficiency needed.
It’s certainly a difficult thing to determine. I really like the idea of no ranks for kids, but I don’t know if that would hold the attention of many children. My daughter is the type that likes to see progress and achievement (much like I was in that way). If not belts or a separate ranking system altogether, there might need to be something in place for the kids to work towards.
What age do you allow people to start training at now?
hoshin1600
Senior Master
what i was describing is a bit different. this was a high level ..say 7th or 8th Dan grade. what you are talking about is a testing board, or some such situation but in that situation your own instructor put you up and recommended you for that rank. he is just was not officiating the test for neutrality. this was totally different. this was a blatant side stepping of the student teacher relationship and pretty much just paying someone who is a high rank to come in and promote you because you want it and are willing to pay for it.
JR 137
Grandmaster
A former coworker and good friend of mine started training at a BJJ school a few months before I left the area. One night he was telling me that his instructor was waiting for a black belt to show up at the dojo because a lot of people were due for promotion, but the CI couldn’t promote them because he wasn’t a black belt himself (only black belts could promote anyone for any rank). He told me his CI was a purple belt.
I was dumbfounded by it. My only reference was in systems like karate where the CI norm is a 3rd dan. He told me the CI also has a 4th dan in judo, which I said “ok, he’s qualified to teach judo, but BJJ and judo aren’t the same thing.” After he explained the whole ranking system and average time in grade in BJJ, I got it. With the number of years the guy had in BJJ, he’d be around 2nd dan in my organization - at 7 years. 3rd dan would be about 10 years. Doing the math: 5 years to shodan, + 2 years until nidan = 7 years if everything progresses exactly on time, which it rarely does.
7 years of experience seems adequate to run your own school. Purple belt just doesn’t.
Yes, it is different then.
While an instructor in ours can't promote above themselves (or within a couple of levels), they can teach to their own level (and tbf, most of the stuff above about 3rd seems evolutionary so can be self developed to an extent) I believe it's still their responsibility to make the recommendation.
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