These women were one step away from that ranking in their club under their instructor.
In some TSD clubs, 1st Dan is instructor, in others I've seen you have to wait until 3rd. All up to the instructors really. One video proves nothing.
Are women disadvantaged in striking arts/styles?
- Thread starter Hanzou
- Start date
These women were one step away from that ranking in their club under their instructor.
In some TSD clubs, 1st Dan is instructor, in others I've seen you have to wait until 3rd. All up to the instructors really. One video proves nothing.
Hong Kong Pooey
Blue Belt
As there seems to be a somewhat shrill response from some of the feminists on here I'd like to clarify my own position on the subject as I don't wish to be tarred with any particular brush...
Overall, on average, generally speaking, however you prefer to phrase it, women are physically weaker and smaller in stature than men. That is accepted as fact by pretty much every rational person.
That is why they are separated for almost all Olympic events and why men hold the most world records in those events, and why professional sports are not unisex, including combat sports et cetera et cetera.
Given the physical nature of fighting then logic dictates women are at a disadvantage. There is also all of human history to back it up.
There is nothing remotely sexist about any of that.
It doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions, or women can't fight, or some women can't beat some men, or that some women couldn't beat the crap out of most men. There must be thousands that could wipe the floor with me!
Whenever there is a distinct mismatch in size and strength in a fight, the smaller person has be of a higher skill level, smarter, or both in order to win.
If anyone still thinks I'm a terrible misogynist for recognizing these facts then please bear in mind I am a student of Wing Chun which we're taught was designed by a woman in order for a smaller person (woman) to defeat a larger, stronger opponent (man) and does not rely on physical strength in order to do so (smarter)
Overall, on average, generally speaking, however you prefer to phrase it, women are physically weaker and smaller in stature than men. That is accepted as fact by pretty much every rational person.
That is why they are separated for almost all Olympic events and why men hold the most world records in those events, and why professional sports are not unisex, including combat sports et cetera et cetera.
Given the physical nature of fighting then logic dictates women are at a disadvantage. There is also all of human history to back it up.
There is nothing remotely sexist about any of that.
It doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions, or women can't fight, or some women can't beat some men, or that some women couldn't beat the crap out of most men. There must be thousands that could wipe the floor with me!
Whenever there is a distinct mismatch in size and strength in a fight, the smaller person has be of a higher skill level, smarter, or both in order to win.
If anyone still thinks I'm a terrible misogynist for recognizing these facts then please bear in mind I am a student of Wing Chun which we're taught was designed by a woman in order for a smaller person (woman) to defeat a larger, stronger opponent (man) and does not rely on physical strength in order to do so (smarter)
As there seems to be a somewhat shrill response from some of the feminists on here I'd like to clarify my own position on the subject as I don't wish to be tarred with any particular brush...
Overall, on average, generally speaking, however you prefer to phrase it, women are physically weaker and smaller in stature than men. That is accepted as fact by pretty much every rational person.
That is why they are separated for almost all Olympic events and why men hold the most world records in those events, and why professional sports are not unisex, including combat sports et cetera et cetera.
Given the physical nature of fighting then logic dictates women are at a disadvantage. There is also all of human history to back it up.
There is nothing remotely sexist about any of that.
It doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions, or women can't fight, or some women can't beat some men, or that some women couldn't beat the crap out of most men. There must be thousands that could wipe the floor with me!
Whenever there is a distinct mismatch in size and strength in a fight, the smaller person has be of a higher skill level, smarter, or both in order to win.
If anyone still thinks I'm a terrible misogynist for recognizing these facts then please bear in mind I am a student of Wing Chun which we're taught was designed by a woman in order for a smaller person (woman) to defeat a larger, stronger opponent (man) and does not rely on physical strength in order to do so (smarter)
There is no shrill response from anyone on here let alone 'feminists'.
The whole premise of the OP is that women being weaker can't really do stand up but guess what, they can do BJJ because that is the magic style that gives them 'the weapons to fight'.
The video was posted so that it could be pointed out that that women who were 'obviously not doing well' against a man, should instead train BJJ.
No one is making sexist remarks, no one is disputing the generally smaller build of females as opposed to men. I think you have the wrong end of the stick.
Hong Kong Pooey
Blue Belt
Wouldn't be the first time!
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
It has nothing to do with magic. It's simply that grappling grants you more tools to utilize than striking does. Bjj is hardly alone in that benefit.
No, it was posted because of its content and the strong reaponse it generated in the comment section, with some saying that women shouldn't spar men in class.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
LOL utter nonsense
Such comments are made by trolls looking to either insult those in the video or to draw attention to themselves. They really aren't worth taking any notice of. I very much doubt they were members of the same club, they will be random idiots. Who cares what they think.
I don't think any martial art 'grants' you anything, ever. You have to work for everything you get. The best weapon you will ever have is your brain regardless of what you train.
Interesting thread and I have not read the whole thing but Hanzou did you take into account that the women in the video probably had been testing for and hour to three hours? During that time they would typically be going through forms, 1 steps, 2 steps, self defense, breaking, etc. By the time this sparring video was taken they would have pushed their bodies extensively. Where as the male black belt who came in to spar with them was not drained by exhaustion, has more experience and at this stage substantially more skill set. Not to mention size, strength and reach on his side? Did you take all of that into account?
Now the video you posted of the smaller BJJ practitioner in a competition beating a larger competitor is pretty cool. However, I would gather that they were on the same playing field. Ie. had the same amount of matches if any and neither were drained substantially more than the other person.
If your objective is to say that BJJ is better for smaller, weaker people then you need to come up with better comparisons. ie. more comparable videos. However, before you do think about this. A larger, stronger person will by default always have an attribute advantage unless their is a skill discrepancy or some one is lucky. Size does matter. It matters in all athletics. It certainly matters in BJJ because if you put anyone on the mat with someone who has superior size and equal ability then in general the bigger person will win. Though of course not always. Just like a smaller person will not always lose to a bigger person in a striking match. Yet, that size, reach, etc. is a big advantage!!!
BJJ is a great martial system but.... it is just one martial system. Good at what it does but not the end all be all of everything. (spoken by someone who practices it)
Now the video you posted of the smaller BJJ practitioner in a competition beating a larger competitor is pretty cool. However, I would gather that they were on the same playing field. Ie. had the same amount of matches if any and neither were drained substantially more than the other person.
If your objective is to say that BJJ is better for smaller, weaker people then you need to come up with better comparisons. ie. more comparable videos. However, before you do think about this. A larger, stronger person will by default always have an attribute advantage unless their is a skill discrepancy or some one is lucky. Size does matter. It matters in all athletics. It certainly matters in BJJ because if you put anyone on the mat with someone who has superior size and equal ability then in general the bigger person will win. Though of course not always. Just like a smaller person will not always lose to a bigger person in a striking match. Yet, that size, reach, etc. is a big advantage!!!
BJJ is a great martial system but.... it is just one martial system. Good at what it does but not the end all be all of everything. (spoken by someone who practices it)
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Absolutely. Again, what prompted me to post this video was not only its contents, but the responses in the comment section. The main comments being that it was unfair for the testers to put a man against a woman in a sparring contest. I found such comments interesting, along with the video contents, and decided to make a thread about it.
As to the tiredness of the two women, nothing from their performance indicated to me at least that they were tired. They were going for their attacks pretty vigorously. In my experience, when you're tired, you tend to play a bit more defensive in order to conserve energy. The women in that vid were still performing pretty explosive movements.
I posted the Bjj video in response to another poster. Said poster has continued to make sarcastic remarks about Bjj being beneficial for smaller practitioners or women, and I've responded in kind with simply pictures and videos. My statement on the matter has only been that grappling provides more tools than striking does for smaller people. Grappling doesn't begin and end with Bjj.
I agree with you that grappling doesn't begin and end with BJJ.
I do not feel that grappling provides more tools than striking just different tools. As a matter of speaking in self-defense grappling with a man of superior size would probably not be on anyone's fun list. Whether it be a man or a woman!
I do not feel that grappling provides more tools than striking just different tools. As a matter of speaking in self-defense grappling with a man of superior size would probably not be on anyone's fun list. Whether it be a man or a woman!
Who actually reads the comments under You Tube videos? Really who does?. They are never interesting, often insulting, frequently illiterate and never written by people who actually know anything about the subject matter in the video.
I do BJJ, I grapple and I train MMA. I still don't read the comments under You Tube videos. And the 'sarcastic' remarks hit true though didn't they, the whole point of putting the videos on was to 'prove' that stand up isn't as good as BJJ/grappling so I am vindicated (posh way of saying I told you so) :rofl:
I do BJJ, I grapple and I train MMA. I still don't read the comments under You Tube videos. And the 'sarcastic' remarks hit true though didn't they, the whole point of putting the videos on was to 'prove' that stand up isn't as good as BJJ/grappling so I am vindicated (posh way of saying I told you so) :rofl:
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Depends on the situation. Trading blows with someone of superior size wouldn't be on anyone's fun list either. If given the choice, I'd grapple.
Absolutely and that is why as a martial practitioner one should not be one dimensional!
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I read the comments because I wanted more info. The interesting comments were the first couple of comments. Kind of hard to miss.
Also this vid spawned a duplicate video that was even more focused on the mixed sparring portion.
For smaller and/or weaker people? I'm forced to agree. However that isn't the entire point of this thread. Merely an outgrowth of it.
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Of course it was. So why were you looking for videos of people sparring when your interest doesn't lie that way?
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OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I actually found this vid because of the kata discussion in the karate forum. I had posted it there as well.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah but both of those guys have domolished top competitive black belts to get where they are. This is sort of what I am saying. That you can be a black belt but not expected to be the best fighter in the room.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Should the standard be that large in bjj? Is one of the schools deficient?
Men Yeah depending on the circumstances. I don't think they were ever expected to win.
Ronda rousy looking like a chump sparring. Skill difference not a size difference.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=27vO8FdbQzk
It is not that striking is inherently unfair.just she has really good sparring partners.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
I did view some of his other matches, and some of the purple belt skills showcased were questionable. Especially when he went up against that really large purple belt who just tried to lay on him and not do anything. However, that was probably because he was used to subbing people by moving his weight around.
No offense to Ronda, but I don't think she could do well against a man with equal level striking.
However, I have no doubt that she could outgrapple a lot of men out there. I've seen many occasions when she's taken down, and arm barred male professional MMA fighters at will. Some of them were quite a bit larger than she was. Uriah Hall immediately comes to mind. He outweighs her by about 50 lbs.
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