Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news

[puunui]

I've been reading some of these posts regarding why this or that person shouldn't be given a black belt. Most of it has to do with the idea that young people cannot understand the importance or gravity of what a black belt means. I find this ironic because I think the people making these sorts of statements do not really understand what ranks or grades mean, historically, or practically.

We all know that Kano Sensei developed the ranking system for Judo, which he got from the game of Go. In Go (sort of like asian checkers), players are "ranked" according to ability and skill, such that players of similar or equal ability can play each other in a meaningful way. If one has too high a skill level than the other, then it is less "fun" and less challenging for both. So in Go, they try to match people so that each can gain maximum benefit and enjoyment from the experience. There is no requirement of "maturity" or having some sort of high level understanding about the importance of Go in the great scheme of the universe; rather is it simply looked upon as a handicapping system for the game.

Belt ranks serve the same purpose with respect to the martial arts, in that they serve as a handicapping system so that competitors can compete against similarly ranked or skilled players. And because it is a physical contest, Taekwondo or other martial arts further break down competitors into sub categories according to age, weight, and sex. Enter a tournament and most likely you will be competing against someone who is similar to you in all these aspects.

If someone is obviously too skilled for the division that they are competing in, then the get "promoted" to one with higher skilled players. If someone competes in a rank level that is over their present skill level, then everyone will know because they will lose. They can continue to compete at that level or they can go down a level or two and find their correct place in the competition scheme of things. There is no requirement of "maturity" or understanding of the importance of the black belt in determining one's correct place in the competition.

Why weren't children given dan ranks when the system was first started? It was because we did not want children (back then young males) competing in the same arena as men, for obvious reasons. There would be no point in having a seven year old first dan up against a 25 year old in a sparring match. What would that prove? Nothing, so the answer was to not let the seven year old compete in the dan rank divisions, hence the creation of the poom system. At 15 or 16, children could physically compete with adults, and therefore the children could convert their poom rank to a similar dan rank. Same thing with the person who stopped training as a poom and then later wanted to get back into it, they would get their poom rank transferred to a corresponding dan rank, because now they were old enough to compete in the adult divisions.

Today, through misunderstanding or a lack of instruction, practitioners have created their own standards for what is or isn't a "black belt", when the simple answer is staring at them the whole time through the system of competition which they probably participated in at one point or another.

The real question isn't whether a six year old deserves a poom rank, since that six year old would be paired with other six year olds of similar rank. That is who we compare the six year old poom holder to, other six year old poom holders, and not adult dan holders.

But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? Gymnastics also has a system of levels for competition, like almost all "sports", but if I am interested in gymnastics for other reasons (break dancing, or even martial arts) why would I need a gymnastics ranking?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I've been reading some of these posts regarding why this or that person shouldn't be given a black belt. Most of it has to do with the idea that young people cannot understand the importance or gravity of what a black belt means. I find this ironic because I think the people making these sorts of statements do not really understand what ranks or grades mean, historically, or practically.

We all know that Kano Sensei developed the ranking system for Judo, which he got from the game of Go. In Go (sort of like asian checkers), players are "ranked" according to ability and skill, such that players of similar or equal ability can play each other in a meaningful way. If one has too high a skill level than the other, then it is less "fun" and less challenging for both. So in Go, they try to match people so that each can gain maximum benefit and enjoyment from the experience. There is no requirement of "maturity" or having some sort of high level understanding about the importance of Go in the great scheme of the universe; rather is it simply looked upon as a handicapping system for the game.

Belt ranks serve the same purpose with respect to the martial arts, in that they serve as a handicapping system so that competitors can compete against similarly ranked or skilled players. And because it is a physical contest, Taekwondo or other martial arts further break down competitors into sub categories according to age, weight, and sex. Enter a tournament and most likely you will be competing against someone who is similar to you in all these aspects.

If someone is obviously too skilled for the division that they are competing in, then the get "promoted" to one with higher skilled players. If someone competes in a rank level that is over their present skill level, then everyone will know because they will lose. They can continue to compete at that level or they can go down a level or two and find their correct place in the competition scheme of things. There is no requirement of "maturity" or understanding of the importance of the black belt in determining one's correct place in the competition.

Why weren't children given dan ranks when the system was first started? It was because we did not want children (back then young males) competing in the same arena as men, for obvious reasons. There would be no point in having a seven year old first dan up against a 25 year old in a sparring match. What would that prove? Nothing, so the answer was to not let the seven year old compete in the dan rank divisions, hence the creation of the poom system. At 15 or 16, children could physically compete with adults, and therefore the children could convert their poom rank to a similar dan rank. Same thing with the person who stopped training as a poom and then later wanted to get back into it, they would get their poom rank transferred to a corresponding dan rank, because now they were old enough to compete in the adult divisions.

Today, through misunderstanding or a lack of instruction, practitioners have created their own standards for what is or isn't a "black belt", when the simple answer is staring at them the whole time through the system of competition which they probably participated in at one point or another.

The real question isn't whether a six year old deserves a poom rank, since that six year old would be paired with other six year olds of similar rank. That is who we compare the six year old poom holder to, other six year old poom holders, and not adult dan holders.

But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? Gymnastics also has a system of levels for competition, like almost all "sports", but if I am interested in gymnastics for other reasons (break dancing, or even martial arts) why would I need a gymnastics ranking?

QFT!!! Especially the last paragraph.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I had a really long, well thought out reply to share. But then I thought, 'why'?

Seriously, those that think KKW TKD is a joke will continue to think of it as a joke. Those that think it is okay to persue commercialism over values will continue to do so. Those that think there is nothing wrong with promoting a 6 year old, or rank skipping, or not having to physically be at a test to pass or any of the other 'issues' that are continually brought up will continue to think there is nothing wrong.

And in the end, who is right and who is wrong?

Perhaps...just perhaps, any 'rank' that is earned, regardless of the reason for training is...in the end, a highly personal thing and only of value to the person themselves.

 

[Tony49]

The real question isn't whether a six year old deserves a poom rank, since that six year old would be paired with other six year olds of similar rank. That is who we compare the six year old poom holder to, other six year old poom holders, and not adult dan holders.

But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? Gymnastics also has a system of levels for competition, like almost all "sports", but if I am interested in gymnastics for other reasons (break dancing, or even martial arts) why would I need a gymnastics ranking?

I agree if you are doing Self-Defense then the belt just holds up your pants. There was a group that practice what they called Combatives and they actually burnt their belts and certificates.

I like the poom belts or Jr. Black Belts because it allows kids and adults to reconize their skill level as it relates to their peers. At our school we don't give a Dan Rank unless you are 18. The reason is kid's brains have not fully developed. They don't always know right from wrong or understand all the consequences. That is why the law doesn't not try kids as adults unless the crime is really bad and the kid shows no remorse. Now not all adults have learn these skills either but I assume most instructors would either kick that student out or not give them a BB until they change their attitude. However, if you give an kid a BB you might not have a chance to see their character develop if they quit before it fully develops. As for the old guy, we give out an Honorary BB because they can't always demonstrate the same skill but have demonstrated loyalty passion and a committed to help the school or art progress.

 

[puunui]

Seriously, those that think KKW TKD is a joke will continue to think of it as a joke. Those that think it is okay to persue commercialism over values will continue to do so. Those that think there is nothing wrong with promoting a 6 year old, or rank skipping, or not having to physically be at a test to pass or any of the other 'issues' that are continually brought up will continue to think there is nothing wrong.

So are you saying that none of the members in your International Kong Soo Do Association have committed any of the acts that you describe above? Do you have any Kukkiwon certification or any experience training under a Kukkiwon certified instructor who taught the Kukkiwon curriculum?

 

[puunui]

I had a really long, well thought out reply to share. But then I thought, 'why'?

Why not? I would like to hear your perspective on the role of rank in the martial arts, in particular for those who are primarily self defense oriented like yourself. Why would someone like you need or want rank?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So are you saying that none of the members in your International Kong Soo Do Association have committed any of the acts that you describe above? Do you have any Kukkiwon certification or any experience training under a Kukkiwon certified instructor who taught the Kukkiwon curriculum?

Well, I'm pretty sure there are no six year old IKSDA members. I can't think of anyone that has skipped a rank. Some have been promoted without an actual physical test, but based upon prior knowledge of the persons abilities as well as a rather long TIG. More importantly, to date know one has been charged anything in the IKSDA other than S&H of their certification. So the commercialism factor is a non-factor for us.

I would like to hear your perspective on the role of rank in the martial arts, in particular for those who are primarily self defense oriented like yourself. Why would someone like you need or want rank?

Basically because it is a known factor. Using a Jutsu vs. Do comparison, they have fairly blended over the years. I don't remember if it was the last Ryu or not to go with the Dan/Kyu system, but Uechi Ryu finally coverted over around 1954 or so if memory serves. Now Uechi Ryu does have a sport element. But anyone that has taken it (particularly perfoming Sanchin kata for a BB test) knows that it is a very hard core martial art with a profound element of 'self-defense'. And I would add that the SD element is first and formost with sport being secondary. Also, there are definite differences in what is SD and what is sport. Anyone that knows the Uechi history and what happened when the Japanese sport team came calling back in the 50's will know what I mean. But the point is that it is a known element for both despite it being initially for sport.

If were going to go strictly by the origins of the belts, we'd also have to get rid of the plethora of rainbow colors and stripes and go back to strictly white, brown and black as those were the original colors. But as with anything, it is adapted to the needs of the individual system.

 

[puunui]

Well, I'm pretty sure there are no six year old IKSDA members. I can't think of anyone that has skipped a rank. Some have been promoted without an actual physical test, but based upon prior knowledge of the persons abilities as well as a rather long TIG. More importantly, to date know one has been charged anything in the IKSDA other than S&H of their certification. So the commercialism factor is a non-factor for us.

Translation: You have no Kukkiwon certification.

Basically because it is a known factor. Using a Jutsu vs. Do comparison, they have fairly blended over the years. I don't remember if it was the last Ryu or not to go with the Dan/Kyu system, but Uechi Ryu finally coverted over around 1954 or so if memory serves. Now Uechi Ryu does have a sport element. But anyone that has taken it (particularly perfoming Sanchin kata for a BB test) knows that it is a very hard core martial art with a profound element of 'self-defense'. And I would add that the SD element is first and formost with sport being secondary. Also, there are definite differences in what is SD and what is sport. Anyone that knows the Uechi history and what happened when the Japanese sport team came calling back in the 50's will know what I mean. But the point is that it is a known element for both despite it being initially for sport.

Sounds like you know more about Uechi Ryu than you do Kukki Taekwondo. Do you even have a Taekwondo or Kong Soo Do 1st Dan? If not, then you skipped rank to your Kong Soo Do 7th Dan. By the way, who promoted GM Dunn to 8th Dan?

If were going to go strictly by the origins of the belts, we'd also have to get rid of the plethora of rainbow colors and stripes and go back to strictly white, brown and black as those were the original colors. But as with anything, it is adapted to the needs of the individual system.

Are you sure those are the original colors? They weren't in Korea.

 

[Tez3]

I think you could link this thread to the one that asks how you define a martial artist to understand why many adults get upset at 6 year old black belts. For many being a martial artist is an adult concept, we learn to fight, to defend ourselves and to be discplined in what we do. Black belts, not just in TKD, it goes for karate, Judo etc as well, are supposed to be the epitome of a martial artist and it's very hard to imagine a child having the qualities we suppose a black belt should have.

The idea of belt factories, churning out child black belts for the money I think annoys everyone of all styles of martial arts. If they only teach enough to pass the grade they are cheating the recipients and making a mockery of martial arts but I suspect they are too busy counting the money to worry about that.

Many of us do our black belts tests to prove to ourselves that we can, to go through a gruelling test and come out the other side with a black belt feels like an achievement to be proud of. If it's too easy we feel cheated so when we see a child gaining their BBs we feel that if a child can pass it, it must be an easy test and we've haven't been given the chance to prove ourselves and this devalues the BB we've been 'given', we haven't won it.

Some people know in themselves they are good enough and don't need the assurance of being graded, they're lucky but for most it's a case that we need to be graded to feel our achievement. Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, that we should all feel good enough but the truth is we don't.

Some things, like driving a vehicle, having sex, drinking alcohol are inherently adult activities, something children don't and shouldn't do until they are mature enough to understand the whys and wherefores, many feel being a black belt is also one of those things that should be for adults too.

 

[Earl Weiss]

But the real question is why would someone who is all about "self defense" need rank at all. If I am doing golf as a method of self defense, how to swing the club at my attacker, then why would I need a golf handicap? quote]

I would taje it a step further. If you are "All about Self defense" or perhaps only about self defense, you don't need rank. You really don't need a "Martial Art".

As one reality based exponent (Peyton Quinn) has said for decades. "I don't teach a martial art.".

I remeber asking an Israeli guy a few decades ago whether he learbnned the Martial art of Krav Maga in basic training. (This was before it became mass marketed) His response was "What Martial Art? There is nothing artistic about kneeing someone in the groin."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Translation: You have no Kukkiwon certification.

I could have had a KKW BB cert at any time I wished for decades as my instructor is a KKW ranked master. I chose not to have one because it does not further my goals.

Sounds like you know more about Uechi Ryu than you do Kukki Taekwondo.

I know a lot about each since I've trained in both (actually Pangainoon was my first formal art). I also know about Shuri Te, Aikijujutsu, Krav Maga, Hapkido etc.

Do you even have a Taekwondo or Kong Soo Do 1st Dan? If not, then you skipped rank to your Kong Soo Do 7th Dan.

Yes, and no I've never skipped. How about you?

By the way, who promoted GM Dunn to 8th Dan?

Why not ask him directly?

Are you sure those are the original colors? They weren't in Korea.

Hmm, you're not suggesting Korea had belt colors before Japan are you. That would be silly. Belts went from Judo to Shotokan and then to everyone else that wanted to use them. The Koreans borrowed the concept in the same way the other systems borrowed and used them. Somewhere along the line, someone said, "hey...we should add yellow and orange and blue and green and purple and camo and use electrical tape for stripes....and charge $50 for each time"!

Would that have come from Korea?

 

[puunui]

I would taje it a step further. If you are "All about Self defense" or perhaps only about self defense, you don't need rank. You really don't need a "Martial Art". As one reality based exponent (Peyton Quinn) has said for decades. "I don't teach a martial art.".

Peyton respects martial artists, don't know if he considers himself one, but at least he is honest in what he is presenting to the public through his self defense courses. He's a good guy, he once sent me autographed copies of his books for free, without me asking, to add to my collection.

 

[puunui]

I could have had a KKW BB cert at any time I wished for decades as my instructor is a KKW ranked master. I chose not to have one because it does not further my goals.

I have had Kukkiwon certification for decades, because my instructors never gave me the option of whether I would receive Kukkiwon certification or not. They just automatically gave it to the students, just like they automatically received their own Kukkiwon certification when it was time for their promotions. But let me ask you, is GM Dunn your "KKW ranked master"? I saw on the MT archives that someone was claiming to be a Taekwondo 3rd Dan under GM Dunn, and the person who was saying this wrote that GM Dunn was a Kukkiwon 4th Dan. This was in 2003 I believe, which makes me wonder if it is the same person, given that GM Dunn now claims 8th Dan, 8 years later.

Yes, and no I've never skipped. How about you?

No I never skipped any dan.

Why not ask him directly?

Ok. What is his phone number?

Hmm, you're not suggesting Korea had belt colors before Japan are you. That would be silly. Belts went from Judo to Shotokan and then to everyone else that wanted to use them. The Koreans borrowed the concept in the same way the other systems borrowed and used them. Somewhere along the line, someone said, "hey...we should add yellow and orange and blue and green and purple and camo and use electrical tape for stripes....and charge $50 for each time"! Would that have come from Korea?

I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that even in Korea, the "original" belt system was not white, brown, black. Are you so positive that it was, in Judo and Shotokan? I will tell you this, that the original color belts for the Shotokan was white, red and black, that at some point later, after WWII, brown was substituted for red. That is why we use the red belt as a color belt before black in Taekwondo, as a legacy from Shotokan, and Japan.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have had Kukkiwon certification for decades, because my instructors never gave me the option of whether I would receive Kukkiwon certification or not. They just automatically gave it to the students, just like they automatically received their own Kukkiwon certification when it was time for their promotions. But let me ask you, is GM Dunn your "KKW ranked master"? I saw on the MT archives that someone was claiming to be a Taekwondo 3rd Dan under GM Dunn, and the person who was saying this wrote that GM Dunn was a Kukkiwon 4th Dan. This was in 2003 I believe, which makes me wonder if it is the same person, given that GM Dunn now claims 8th Dan, 8 years later.

If you needed a KKW certification for what you do then the requirement placed upon you was fine. I didn't have a requirement placed upon me. GM Dunn received his KKW 4th back in the mid-90's. If you'd like to talk with him first hand, his email is available on the website or join Martial Warrior and talk with him there. That way you don't have to sniff around, you can go straight to the source. If he would like to give you his phone number then he can do so. And yes, Judo used white, brown and black.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Puunui,

Just curious why you would even care anyway about GM Dunn? Are these not your words...

Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank.

Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.

One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.

 

[Twin Fist]

ANYONE that is ok with a SIX YEAR OLD getting a dan OR poom rank?


nope


no use for them

 

[puunui]

If you needed a KKW certification for what you do then the requirement placed upon you was fine. I didn't have a requirement placed upon me.

What requirement? We got promoted and they gave us Kukkiwon certification. It's that simple.

GM Dunn received his KKW 4th back in the mid-90's. If you'd like to talk with him first hand, his email is available on the website or join Martial Warrior and talk with him there. That way you don't have to sniff around, you can go straight to the source. If he would like to give you his phone number then he can do so.

Sounds like too much work, joining your message board. But even if he received in 4th Dan in 1995 say, time in grade would have his promotions like this:

4th: 1995
5th: 1999
6th: 2004
7th: 2010
8th: 2018

And you never answered whether he was your taekwondo instructor. If he was, then the "decades" comment would be a stretch, as would be your promotion to Taekwondo 7th Dan:

1st: 1995
2nd: 1996
3rd: 1998
4th: 2001
5th: 2005
6th: 2010
7th: 2016

And yes, Judo used white, brown and black.

I was told by my grandfather who said it started off as white and black only, like the colors of the stones in the game Go, white for kyu, black for dan. The other colors came in later, including purple, brown, red/white and red. What is your source for the fact that the original judo belt colors were white, brown, black?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Sounds like too much work, joining your message board.

60 seconds is to much work?

Different organizations have different TIG standards.

And I repost your own words again;

Personally, I am not diminished or affected in any way if someone gets promoted to any rank.

Why do you have to justify the rank, and who are you justifying the rank to? Personally, I promote whoever I want, and I don't care what people think about that. If they don't like it, that is their problem.

One of my instructors got a call from someone complaining about someone else once. After a little while, my instructor asked this person, "Who promoted you?, to which the caller responded "Korea", to which my instructor's reply was, "Then you go complain to Korea!" and hung up the phone. The person never called back again.

Your psuedo-concern is very hypocritical. Why not just come out and be honest? I rubbed you the wrong way because of some very direct questions and comments I've made. You see my directness as an attack. You don't like that I place a division between self-defense and sport training. And you're sniffing around trying to find something to use against me. And when I suggest you simply contact my instructor and chat with him directly over any question you may have you come back with 'it is to much work'. I didn't realize sending an email or taking 60 seconds to join a board was that tremendous of an effort. I think you need to reread your own words above.

 

[puunui]

60 seconds is to much work?

I think it is. I don't think I will becoming a regular member of your message.

Your psuedo-concern is very hypocritical. Why not just come out and be honest? I rubbed you the wrong way because of some very direct questions and comments I've made. You see my directness as an attack. You don't like that I place a division between self-defense and sport training. And you're sniffing around trying to find something to use against me. And when I suggest you simply contact my instructor and chat with him directly over any question you may have you come back with 'it is to much work'. I didn't realize sending an email or taking 60 seconds to join a board was that tremendous of an effort. I think you need to reread your own words above.

I don't know if I would call it "psuedo-concern", but your organization does raise a lot of questions. I believe it is on its third name change, Taekido and International Kongsoodo Federation being the others. And there already has been some discussion about your organization already, as far as I can see. As for placing a division between self defense and sport, well that is your business. I would try to contact your instructor and did ask for his telephone number but you declined to give that to me. I would think that the president of any organization would have his telephone number up for everyone to call, not just me. And I wouldn't call to complain about you, but rather to simply ask him some simple questions which you apparently feel uncomfortable answering regarding your organization.

I mean really, you were the one making all kinds of statements regarding Kukkiwon certification and Kukkiwon Taekwondo, I would think that you would at least be able to respond to similar questions regarding your organization. If you wish to ask any questions or you want any information regarding the Kukkiwon or Kukki Taekwondo, please by all means ask away. If you wish to speak to the Kukkiwon President or someone at the Kukkiwon, the telephone number is 82-2-567-1058.

 

[puunui]

Just curious why you would even care anyway about GM Dunn? Are these not your words...

Just curious as to who promoted him to 8th Dan. If it is some sort of big secret, then don't answer. If you want to know who promoted any of my teachers, I can easily tell you the answer.