Describe the perfect black belt test.

[MasterWright]

Well, I don't agree with not letting a person test if they cannot perform all of these aforementioned feats. We are all different and have limitations due to physical attributes, time of life or mental abilities.

Some of my students are afflicted with ADHD and Downs Syndrome but they try ,really hard. These folks are better as a result of our training, we have proven this. Teachers thank us every time we go to the schools.

I think that it would be wrong to hold them back . Why bother trying to better yourself when there are no rewards for your hard work.

 

[shesulsa]

Well, I don't agree with not letting a person test if they cannot perform all of these aforementioned feats. We are all different and have limitations due to physical attributes, time of life or mental abilities.

Some of my students are afflicted with ADHD and Downs Syndrome but they try ,really hard. These folks are better as a result of our training, we have proven this. Teachers thank us every time we go to the schools.

I think that it would be wrong to hold them back . Why bother trying to better yourself when there are no rewards for your hard work.

I think we serve society better - we traditional martial artists - if we accept that people are different, run an honest program, and focus on improvement and skills-related quality. We're not all extremely talented people who fly through the air like eagles, smash things like hulk and thwart attackers like trebuchets. Focusing on a good quality low kick rather than a graceful, expansive high kick - for instance - and improving on it over time.

We're not all brawlers, we're not all competitors, we're not all out to bite off someone's ear or break an appendage if they don't tap out. We can do people much more good individually and generally if we're honest about program, structure it to the individual and carry forward without apology.

 

[zeeberex]

Well, I don't agree with not letting a person test if they cannot perform all of these aforementioned feats. We are all different and have limitations due to physical attributes, time of life or mental abilities.

Some of my students are afflicted with ADHD and Downs Syndrome but they try ,really hard. These folks are better as a result of our training, we have proven this. Teachers thank us every time we go to the schools.

I think that it would be wrong to hold them back . Why bother trying to better yourself when there are no rewards for your hard work.

I partially disagree, if the person can't do the fitness related requirements, they need to get in shape, if they are not up on the required material, they don't deserve the belt, if they are of a disability they should rethink their hobby.

The recipient of a black belt carries the teaching to the next batch learning, if they are not worthy, you just degraded it, period.

 

[MasterWright]

I certainly don't want to degrade the art as you say.

For example, I have an 18 year old student with Downs syndrome that can do all of our self defense requirements and Taeguk forms for his rank. He is a little slower sparring and to pick things up. It takes him almost twice as long to move up in rank as a result.

He has a great attitude and is always respectfull to myself and others. We have a stretching machine and nobody I know can crank it out as far as he can. In fact he can lift his leg straight up. Can you do that?

I don't know if there is Taekwondo at the Special Olympics. But if there is, I hope to bring students there as well.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Perfect black belt test. Hmmmm. Let's call the student a BB2B (black belt to be.)

In actuality the BB2B should have demonstrated to the teacher over the years just about everything the teacher would ask or demand for a test! It's not like the teacher has never seen them before!

First the BB2B should have been running some of the classes. Yes running, teaching, demonstrating. The teacher should have been watching him/her while they taught some of those. That way the BB2B has started to learn how to teach and how to explain to others what one has learned. This is one of the things I loved about John Chu. I learned how to command people and give orders BEFORE I made black belt. He pilled responsibility on us and I thank him for that.

The BB2B over the years should have shown they are level headed. That they stick with it. They put forth 110 percent. Respect, disipline, honor, integrity, a strong will, and other such traits should have been demonstrated over the years and the teacher should know it!

Actual test?
1) Random sample of forms they should all know (and know them very very well!)
2) Knowledge of Korean language and history (just a ramdom sample, not the whole book, but know them very well!)
3) One step sparring 50 techniques (actually that's easy if you do it in sequence.) It should be fast and with excellent technique.
4) Self defense (hapkido) another 50 (various grabs, lots of takedowns.)
5) Demonstrate all kicks and punches (and done very well!)
6) Free spar with several students, some just below their rank, some above their rank, and any who are also testing.)
7) Decent set of board/brick breaking. This depends on the size and strength of the BB2B. Don't over do this and make it a muscle man competition.

Why break anything? It shows power, technique, and concentration. That's why. We consider this 'extra points' and not mandatory.

The test is not to kill the student. It's not to run them into the ground. It's not to make them a SEAL team member or some form of hazing. So don't overdo the test.

The teacher should already know if they feel the BB2B is ready for advancment. It should be more of just a demonstartion to everyone else the BB2B knows their stuff.

Deaf

 

[Drac]

if the person can't do the fitness related requirements, they need to get in shape,

An easy enough task when you in your 30's..When you add another 20 years it becomes a challenge..Mother Nature herself is against you...

if they are not up on the required material, they don't deserve the belt

I'll agree on that one...You must know all the techniques..

if they are of a disability they should rethink their hobby.

Someone better tell this guy that http://www.myspace.com/idsa

The recipient of a black belt carries the teaching to the next batch learning, if they are not worthy, you just degraded it, period.

I agree ...

 

[mango.man]

An easy enough task when you in your 30's..When you add another 20 years it becomes a challenge..Mother Nature herself is against you...

And that alone is really the basis of this whole thread.

At 30, life is good all around, you are in good shape and likely can pass the test with relative ease. Tack on 20 years, or subtract 20 years though and a person should not be expected to do the same things as that 30 year old is doing. Yet people in another thread are jumping up and down screaming that a 10 year old should not be a black belt unless he took the same exact test as the 30 year old. Well if the 10 year old has to take the same test as the 30 year old, then so should the 50 year old. If at 50 you can't overcome Mother Nature then these same people should be telling you that you are not worthy, just like they are so quick to tell the 10 year old that he is not worthy.

So here is the bottom line.

Tests should be based on the individual that is being tested. 10 year olds should be tested differently than 20 year olds. 20 year olds should be tested differently from 40 year olds and 40 year olds should be tested differently from 80 year olds.

Doesn't mean that a test should be made so easy that anyone can pass it.

I have been around long enough to have seen plenty of 10 year olds that, IMO, should not have been black belts. I have seen plenty of 20, 30 and 40 year olds as well that should not have been black belts.

Here is a quick story of something that recently happened at the school I took my daughter out of about 10 months ago (Feb 08):

Real quick, we left this school when we started seeing the signs of McDojangism. We had seen it coming for a couple of months but in Jan 08 her instructor / school owner called a parent meeting to tell us how things were going to change. It was like he was reading off of a check list called 10 easy steps to become a McDojang. So without any place to go in the meantime, we left, along with the only other black belt in the school, leaving the school with nothing higher than a blue belt and the highest ranked adult was a green belt.

A few weeks ago, I got an e-mail from a parent at this school asking some questions about how long it should take people to get to Black Belt and if a white or yellow belt could take a "Special Class" for a month and be given a black belt? Of course, my response was, it's his school, so he can do whatever he wants. Even Kukkiwon does not have any time requirements for becoming a 1st Dan, so in theory, yes, this guy can do whatever he wants when it comes to promoting someone from white belt to black belt in 1 month.

I wanted to see this though, so I came up with a BS reason to stop by and sure enough when I walked in I found 4 black belts ages 30 and above. 1 was a green belt when we left in Feb. 2 were white belts when we left in Feb and 1 was just a parent when we left in Feb but from talking to others, started taking class just 2 months ago as part of the "Special Black Belt in 30 days" class.

So there you go, 5 adult black belts (1 was not there on the night I visited) who do not deserve to be black belts.

The really funny part of this story (to me at least) is a couple of these black belts are really excited that they will be going to the US Open in Feb. These guys have never fought as anything higher than green and white or yellow belts in local competitions and now they are going to go step in the ring as black belts in international competition possibly against people that have been fighting as international black belts for 10 or 15 years. Those fights are going to be a hoot for me to watch.

 

[StuartA]

Tests should be based on the individual that is being tested. 10 year olds should be tested differently than 20 year olds. 20 year olds should be tested differently from 40 year olds and 40 year olds should be tested differently from 80 year olds. Doesn't mean that a test should be made so easy that anyone can pass it.

I agree... the problem is that when the base line is altered, many don't understand how to alter it properly and thus the test becomes easy or ridiculous! Sure students age should be taken in account.. sure anyone with disabilities should eb taken into account... but INTO ACCOUNT, notused as a reason to give away a belt/grade!

Even Kukkiwon does not have any time requirements for becoming a 1st Dan, so in theory, yes, this guy can do whatever he wants when it comes to promoting someone from white belt to black belt in 1 month.

In theory.. but not in reality!

The really funny part of this story (to me at least) is a couple of these black belts are really excited that they will be going to the US Open in Feb. These guys have never fought as anything higher than green and white or yellow belts in local competitions and now they are going to go step in the ring as black belts in international competition possibly against people that have been fighting as international black belts for 10 or 15 years. Those fights are going to be a hoot for me to watch.

Some people just need an whooping to wake up... some don't even from that!

Stuart

 

[Raistlin]

I already know that their skills and knowledge are at black belt level before I even test them. What I am testing is their ablility to use the martial arts I have taught them in a high stress situation. There are lots of push ups and sit ups and all kinds of other nasty exercises that I can come up with throughout the entire test as I am testing them on their techniques. I am also trying to throw them off and make them second guess themselves by asking them lots of questions and questioning their answers. At the end of the test, they have to fight a minimum of 10 fights back to back with fresh black belts on each fight. I want to test their indominable spirit. The whole idea of the test is to see how they will perform when their body and mind are pushed to the limits, and to see how confident they are in the knowledge they have obtained by questioning everything they do. It is one of the most physically and mentally draining experiences they will ever experience. It certainly was for me.
This may seem a little extreme, but as a result of the tests that I give these students, I have never promoted anyone to black belt that I was not confident in their abilities to protect themselves, or in their abilities to share their art in a way that would represent their school well. It is certainly a big leap to go from red to black. Not everyone can do it, but there is certainly a feeling of pride when you reach the end and know that you have just accomplished something that most people could not.
The black belt test is a huge deal in my schools. It is not just another test and is certainly not treated that way. Too many schools run the test like any other. The only difference being that the grandmaster or a board of masters from the association are present to "validate" the test. While this is important to maintain a consistent standard throughout the organization, it should not be the only difference. To me, being a black belt needs to be more than putting in 4 or 5 years, learning the curriculum, and receiving your black belt. I know this means that I will probably never make a living at teaching the martial arts but at least my black belts will be good.

 

[StuartA]

This may seem a little extreme, but as a result of the tests that I give these students, I have never promoted anyone to black belt that I was not confident in their abilities to protect themselves, or in their abilities to share their art in a way that would represent their school well. It is certainly a big leap to go from red to black. Not everyone can do it, but there is certainly a feeling of pride when you reach the end and know that you have just accomplished something that most people could not.

Doesnt seem extreme to me, seems similar to how we do things and gives much value to the belt. Good point about many treat a BB test like any other belt test..

Stuart

 

[MasterWright]

And that alone is really the basis of this whole thread.

At 30, life is good all around, you are in good shape and likely can pass the test with relative ease. Tack on 20 years, or subtract 20 years though and a person should not be expected to do the same things as that 30 year old is doing. Yet people in another thread are jumping up and down screaming that a 10 year old should not be a black belt unless he took the same exact test as the 30 year old. Well if the 10 year old has to take the same test as the 30 year old, then so should the 50 year old. If at 50 you can't overcome Mother Nature then these same people should be telling you that you are not worthy, just like they are so quick to tell the 10 year old that he is not worthy.

So here is the bottom line.

Tests should be based on the individual that is being tested. 10 year olds should be tested differently than 20 year olds. 20 year olds should be tested differently from 40 year olds and 40 year olds should be tested differently from 80 year olds.

Doesn't mean that a test should be made so easy that anyone can pass it.

I have been around long enough to have seen plenty of 10 year olds that, IMO, should not have been black belts. I have seen plenty of 20, 30 and 40 year olds as well that should not have been black belts.

Here is a quick story of something that recently happened at the school I took my daughter out of about 10 months ago (Feb 08):

Real quick, we left this school when we started seeing the signs of McDojangism. We had seen it coming for a couple of months but in Jan 08 her instructor / school owner called a parent meeting to tell us how things were going to change. It was like he was reading off of a check list called 10 easy steps to become a McDojang. So without any place to go in the meantime, we left, along with the only other black belt in the school, leaving the school with nothing higher than a blue belt and the highest ranked adult was a green belt.

A few weeks ago, I got an e-mail from a parent at this school asking some questions about how long it should take people to get to Black Belt and if a white or yellow belt could take a "Special Class" for a month and be given a black belt? Of course, my response was, it's his school, so he can do whatever he wants. Even Kukkiwon does not have any time requirements for becoming a 1st Dan, so in theory, yes, this guy can do whatever he wants when it comes to promoting someone from white belt to black belt in 1 month.

I wanted to see this though, so I came up with a BS reason to stop by and sure enough when I walked in I found 4 black belts ages 30 and above. 1 was a green belt when we left in Feb. 2 were white belts when we left in Feb and 1 was just a parent when we left in Feb but from talking to others, started taking class just 2 months ago as part of the "Special Black Belt in 30 days" class.

So there you go, 5 adult black belts (1 was not there on the night I visited) who do not deserve to be black belts.

The really funny part of this story (to me at least) is a couple of these black belts are really excited that they will be going to the US Open in Feb. These guys have never fought as anything higher than green and white or yellow belts in local competitions and now they are going to go step in the ring as black belts in international competition possibly against people that have been fighting as international black belts for 10 or 15 years. Those fights are going to be a hoot for me to watch.

That's dreadfull, I had no idea that things could be this bad. Who is recomending these Dans, this instructor. Or does someone else come to do the tests. Perhaps the Kukkiwon should be informed of this situation.

 

[mango.man]

That's dreadfull, I had no idea that things could be this bad. Who is recomending these Dans, this instructor. Or does someone else come to do the tests. Perhaps the Kukkiwon should be informed of this situation.

Kukkiwon can't do anything in this case. These 5 were promoted by a 4th Dan Kukkiwon holder (The school owner) and Kukkiwon has no time requirements for reaching 1st Dan. So if these guys took a special 1 month class and learned the curriculum required of a 1st Dan then they met the Kukkiwon's requirements.

Kukkiwon requirements are: Taegeuk 1-7, sparring, breaking and special technique.

Vague requirements at best, but nonetheless that is all that is detailed on the Kukkiwon website for promotion to 1st dan, along with > Minimum time required for promotion > 1st Dan = N/A.

What do you suppose the Kukkiwon could do in this situation?

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

I was expected to complete all of the requirements to earn my BBs, but what about giving honorary BBs to those deserving enough? It's done in acamdenia, and why not in TKD? It's been done before...

 

[Gordon Nore]

Some accomodations were made for me during my grading, when I was 45. I had been experiencing a great deal of stiffness in my back, during the weeks leading up to the test. I had cut back a bit on visits to the gym where I had been working on my cardio for about six months prior. Just before the test, there was a strike, and we lost access to the community centre we used. My sensei made some calls and got us relocated to a school gym. It was an extremely cold winter day, and the floor of the gym like ice -- the heat must not have been working.

My sensei insisted that I take breaks during the test and made me put on my winter coat to stay warm. I will say my test was without a doubt my poorest showing of my abilities per se. Forms were sloppy, I kept losing my breath, forgetting things. Realisitically, however, I was a black belt when I stepped on the floor -- I was only doing what I had proven I could do over eleven years of training.

My sensei said that I passed because, under all the stress and cold, worry about my back, and the normal anxiety associated with a big test, that I was able to function at all, that I kept coming back, and even if I did the wrong, I did something.

Essentially, I think a first dan has already passed by the time gets on the mats to grade. If the ability to pass hasn't been demonstrated time and again, there should be no test.

FWIW I don't believe accomodations for disabled students diminish the integrity of the art or the grading process. One poster mentioned above a student with Downs who took longer to move up through the ranks. Giving students more time to learn is an accepted and rather uncontroversial accomodation strategy employed in schools and colleges.

 

[mango.man]

It's All About the DO (Art/Way of Life)!!!

Love your signature Bruin. It totally describes the instructor I profiled, but certainly not as you intended it. For him "It's All About the DOUGH (The cash, the money $$$)!!!"

 

[terryl965]

That's dreadfull, I had no idea that things could be this bad. Who is recomending these Dans, this instructor. Or does someone else come to do the tests. Perhaps the Kukkiwon should be informed of this situation.

Master Wright TKD has fallen into the pit of greed and great instructors are looking for easyways to make enough money before retiring and this is it for them. The KKW has no way of telling you is or is not able to do anything. I know instruvtors for $15,000.00 you can be a certified BB and open a school for them and he just gives you a booklet and say follow these routines and I will stop by twice a month to help for a certain percentage of the money. Such sad days we have in the world of MA.

 

[igillman]

Unfortunately a lot of people think that just because they have the belt also means they have the skill and these mcdojang masters play to that mindset. If I went to class wearing a white belt I would have exactly the same skills as I would if I wore a yellow/orange/green etc... belt. The belt does not magically impart skills on the person wearing it.

I think that a black belt test should include whatever it is that you wish to see in your black belts. If you want them to be excellent instructors then test them on their teaching skills. If you want them to be good at sparring then test them on their sparring skills. Do not complain that none of your black belts know how to teach if, when they took their black belt test, you did not test them on that ability.

You may want to have a multi part test where you have to pass X out of Y sections? That way a very good teacher is not denied the belt because they cannot jump very well. Likewise, a great fighter is not denied because they cannot grasp the Korean language.

 

[Drac]

So here is the bottom line.Tests should be based on the individual that is being tested

Yes I agree..

Doesn't mean that a test should be made so easy that anyone can pass it.

Again I agree

I have been around long enough to have seen plenty of 10 year olds that, IMO, should not have been black belts. I have seen plenty of 20, 30 and 40 year olds as well that should not have been black belts.

Yep...

The really funny part of this story (to me at least) is a couple of these black belts are really excited that they will be going to the US Open in Feb. These guys have never fought as anything higher than green and white or yellow belts in local competitions and now they are going to go step in the ring as black belts in international competition possibly against people that have been fighting as international black belts for 10 or 15 years. Those fights are going to be a hoot for me to watch.

I hope a vid of those matches make it to YouTube..

 

[BrandonLucas]

And that alone is really the basis of this whole thread.

At 30, life is good all around, you are in good shape and likely can pass the test with relative ease. Tack on 20 years, or subtract 20 years though and a person should not be expected to do the same things as that 30 year old is doing. Yet people in another thread are jumping up and down screaming that a 10 year old should not be a black belt unless he took the same exact test as the 30 year old. Well if the 10 year old has to take the same test as the 30 year old, then so should the 50 year old. If at 50 you can't overcome Mother Nature then these same people should be telling you that you are not worthy, just like they are so quick to tell the 10 year old that he is not worthy.

So here is the bottom line.

Tests should be based on the individual that is being tested. 10 year olds should be tested differently than 20 year olds. 20 year olds should be tested differently from 40 year olds and 40 year olds should be tested differently from 80 year olds.

Doesn't mean that a test should be made so easy that anyone can pass it.

I have been around long enough to have seen plenty of 10 year olds that, IMO, should not have been black belts. I have seen plenty of 20, 30 and 40 year olds as well that should not have been black belts.

Here is a quick story of something that recently happened at the school I took my daughter out of about 10 months ago (Feb 08):

Real quick, we left this school when we started seeing the signs of McDojangism. We had seen it coming for a couple of months but in Jan 08 her instructor / school owner called a parent meeting to tell us how things were going to change. It was like he was reading off of a check list called 10 easy steps to become a McDojang. So without any place to go in the meantime, we left, along with the only other black belt in the school, leaving the school with nothing higher than a blue belt and the highest ranked adult was a green belt.

A few weeks ago, I got an e-mail from a parent at this school asking some questions about how long it should take people to get to Black Belt and if a white or yellow belt could take a "Special Class" for a month and be given a black belt? Of course, my response was, it's his school, so he can do whatever he wants. Even Kukkiwon does not have any time requirements for becoming a 1st Dan, so in theory, yes, this guy can do whatever he wants when it comes to promoting someone from white belt to black belt in 1 month.

I wanted to see this though, so I came up with a BS reason to stop by and sure enough when I walked in I found 4 black belts ages 30 and above. 1 was a green belt when we left in Feb. 2 were white belts when we left in Feb and 1 was just a parent when we left in Feb but from talking to others, started taking class just 2 months ago as part of the "Special Black Belt in 30 days" class.

So there you go, 5 adult black belts (1 was not there on the night I visited) who do not deserve to be black belts.

The really funny part of this story (to me at least) is a couple of these black belts are really excited that they will be going to the US Open in Feb. These guys have never fought as anything higher than green and white or yellow belts in local competitions and now they are going to go step in the ring as black belts in international competition possibly against people that have been fighting as international black belts for 10 or 15 years. Those fights are going to be a hoot for me to watch.

Here is the problem with the MA's, right here. The instructor is obviously only there to teach for money, not to actually teach the student. It's just like politics...the politicians are mainly out to serve themselves and the people who are in their best interest to help.

It's not so much a problem with TKD as an art, or with any specific art...it's an instructor problem....a dishonsty issue.

Really, the only thing you can do is what you said you did...you pulled your daughter from that school. The only other thing, I guess, you could try is to contact the KKW to have someone come in and investigate...and suggest that since he's representing the KKW, that he's giving them a bad name.

I don't know how the KKW works, but if it's like any other reputable company, then they would have the best interest of the students at heart, not to mention that they don't want their name tarnished as an organization.

 

[Father Greek]

Not coming from a TKD background it is somewhat hard for me to comment on most of what has been said. However, when I first started in the MA some 38 years ago, there was another student in class who was mentally slow. It took him 9 years to receive his BB. He never had the physical skills to perform the techniques perfectly but he knew them inside and out. He also had the uncanny ability to teach others and is still involved in the arts today. My idea of a perfect BB test is when the candidate screws up a technique but continues on in a manner that shows they can defend themselves. Their test has started many months in advance when they began imparting their knowledge and skills with others. All we can ask as instructors is that a student performs to their full potential.