Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news

[Twin Fist]

*shudder*

 

[ETinCYQX]

*shudder*

How about some expansion? Onomatopoeia is not really a valid point after all...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But Daniel, let's take a close look at this for a moment please. Is it equivalent to an adult test? According to the article, the only difference was the written test was given orally since he can't write yet. And I think it said the boards were a little thinner. But everything else was the same. So it wasn't really that far removed from an adult test.

That is about what I said. I didn't say that a child's test is far removed, but that the two probably are not equal. However, for the child, the test is likely just as tough as it is for the adult.

Now the cert. This boy can have his cert converted over to an 'adult' BB with no additional training and an additional fee. So this test WAS his BB test. Let's all be honest about this for a moment. For a few bucks more at age 15 or so the cert may be revised, but he's already done what he was required to do. This Poom to Dan conversion is another avenue of making money off the same test. That is all it is so let's be honest about it in this discussion.

So if your first paragraph is accurate, then really, who cares?

But as for being honest, or perhaps accurate is a better way to put it, if the kid quits now that he has the belt, he isn't going to be going back in at age fifteen with zero additional training just to get it converted. I have no idea whether or not most school owners would do this for a kid with almost a decade long cessation of training.

Should he stick with it, he probably will never have his first pum converted; Assuming he sticks with it and tests at the minimum time in grade requiements, he'd be testing for second at seven and third pum at ten. Fourth pum requires the testor to be eighteen. If the kid sticks with it for five more years and is intending to continue, he might have his third pum converted, though I don't really see much motivation for doing so.

If he sticks with it to eighteen, he can test for his fourth pum. At that point, you have a student who has trained continuously from the age of six and is now in his prime. If he were a football player, nobody would be deriding his childhood training.

If he sticks with it into his twenties, I can see getting his fourth pum converted (not sure what the minimum age for a fourth dan is) and if he continues beyond that, fifth would be his first out and out dan test.

If he quits between ten and fifteen, again, it is unlikely that his third pum will ever be converted: he most likely will have a solid black belt with three stripes on it and even more likely, mom, dad and kid have no idea that there is even a difference between a pum and a dan.

The kid took a BB test,

No, he took a first pum test, for which he was most likely awarded a black belt. In theory, a weird school could issue a pink belt. However, it is supposed to be a black/red belt. The pum dobok is also different from a yudanja dobok; the collar is black and red instead of solid black.

he passed a BB test, he wears a BB....he's now a KKW TKD BB the same as any KKW TKD BB on this board. He's now in your ranks.

Congrats to him!

The fact that he (or his dad) will have to pay more bucks in ten years to get it 'converted' is a money making tactic on behalf of the KKW.

Don't get hung up on the conversion. It really isn't much of a factor. If a kid sticks with it, they'll just be testing for dans when they are of the appropriate age. Also, most kids with a first pum are not that young, usually between ten and twelve, and if they stick around for three to five years after their first pum, they'll be testing for thrid dan. No conversions needed.

If they don't stick with it, as I said earlier, neither the kid nor the parents likely know the difference between a pum and a dan. But even if they did, they probably don't care: if the boy has a black belt, and if a black belt was his goal, then that goal has been achieved. Time to move on to piano lesons.

As far as the Kukkiwon making money, to be honest, their fees are pretty minimal. They don't charge an association fee, so aside from testing fees, they really have no other means of generating regular income. Given that the Kukkiwon does not track geub grades, they make nothing on colored belt, so the monetary element is really pretty inconsequential.

By contrast, many orgs have just as many registration and/or testing fees and charge an additional annual membership fee.

Usually, its the school, not the org, that is hitting the student up for extra fees.

Ultimately, if you want to be ranked as a yudanja in a large organization, expect to pay a filing fee. If you don't care about that, then it is a non issue.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

Daniel is right about this, the KKW itself doesnt charge much

there is a culture among KKW masters to charge outlandishly high prices for stuff.

we have all heard the horror stories.

 

[Twin Fist]

How about some expansion? Onomatopoeia is not really a valid point after all...

the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel is right about this, the KKW itself doesnt charge much

there is a culture among KKW masters to charge outlandishly high prices for stuff.

we have all heard the horror stories.

And in some cases, experienced them.

Always a real kick in the pants to pay 500.00 for a first dan only to find out that the registration fee is only seventy dollars and that that cool dobok you got only costs the school about thirty bucks and that an embroidered black belt can be had for fifteen bucks cost to the school.

Daniel

 

[ETinCYQX]

the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame

It's not my favorite policy either.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame

Do people actually do this though?

I really don't think that parents of kids who quit at twelve and completely stop training camp out waiting for their kid to come of age just so that they can convert the grade.

I'd be willing to bet a Chipotle burrito that once the kid has a black belt, mom and dad don't pay any attention to the pum vs. dan distinction and if little Johnny quits after getting said belt, mom and dad still say 'Johnny has a black belt.'

The fact is that no system is bulletproof with regards to shennanigans. If there is a way to game the system, and there almost always is, then someone will find it, but they are the minority.

Anyway, twelve year old first pums magically converting to first dan years after quitting is really a non issue.

Guys who proclaim themselves ninth dan and either fake their credentials and register themselves with a papermill and then start teaching? That's an actual issue.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

we do know that people have, after sitting out for years, applied for skip dan promotion and gotten them through the kkw.....

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

we do know that people have, after sitting out for years, applied for skip dan promotion and gotten them through the kkw.....

Similar but different issue. Such people will of course be grouped in with people of the same rank should they decide to compete. They will either rise to the occasion or they will not.

Organizational rank gymnastics are a byproduct of having an organization with ranks. It is what it is.

Not crazy about it, but on the other hand, it isn't something that bothers me. Ultimately, you either have the skill or you do not.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

the fact that one can, with NO TRAINING IN BETWEEN, get a poom cert he got at 12 converted to an adult cert at 18, and it is considered legit "everywhere in the world" is a shame

This I completely agree with, every single poom should be required to re-test at 18 for a dan rank. I know at my school I re-test all juniors at 18 before I send off for a dan rank. I and my parents know it is not required except from me, but I have never recieved any flack from any of them. I guess I should mention I do not charge for the additional test at 18, they just need to learn some more self defense and be able to explain the techniques from the set of poomsae and one steps.

See TF we do agree on alot of issue's and dis-agree on others.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You're serious?

If people choose not to pay to change the certificate, they don't need to. Just apply for the next higher dan on their next promotion.

Yes sir, I'm very serious.

What does the school charge in addition to the KKW surcharge (if anything)? And if, as you state, you don't really need it...why bother? And, if as you state, you don't need it...then it is just as valid as a Dan cert. Thus, while one can say it isn't a 'BB', it really is because it in effect counts for one in every way.

With respect.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;

If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...

If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...

If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....

If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...

If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....

If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...

Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;

Second dan KKW, higher dojang grade.

If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...

I don't disagree with them issuing the pum rank. I disagree with the practice that individuals schools engage in of issing a black belt with a pum grade, but that is a school level issue, not an org issue.

If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test......

? Please rephrase this or clarify it.

If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master.......

I don't have any problem with that. I can tell you if a supposed 'sword' master is for real after watching him or her draw the blade, perform one or two cuts, and resheath the blade. I have no doubt that a KKW gudan can tell from less than a couple of forms and a minute of sparring if the candidate is master level.

The lengthier tests are usually meant to impart a lesson to the student; their instructors already know that they have the skills.

If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks......

No opinion: I think that such things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.

If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization.......

This is about the only thing on the list that I am critical of. It isn't so much that they have revised it, but more that they have presented it in a way that glosses over Japanese influences and implies a connection with pre-modern KMA.

If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices......

Either they have or they haven't. Opinion should not enter the picture. I am not aware that the organization has "allowed" the practice. You are either ranked through them or you are not. If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is submitting an application for his sixth dan, it isn't going to happen.

If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is faking his credentials, the Kukkiwon website will still list him as a third dan. Since there is no school membership, the Kukkiwon has no recourse unless the man has forged a Kukkiwon certificate.

Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?

I am ranked through them, but that is as far as it goes at this point. I run a hapkdio and kumdo studio, so I actually do not utilize them.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Second dan KKW, higher dojang grade.


I don't disagree with them issuing the pum rank. I disagree with the practice that individuals schools engage in of issing a black belt with a pum grade, but that is a school level issue, not an org issue.


? Please rephrase this or clarify it.


I don't have any problem with that. I can tell you if a supposed 'sword' master is for real after watching him or her draw the blade, perform one or two cuts, and resheath the blade. I have no doubt that a KKW gudan can tell from less than a couple of forms and a minute of sparring if the candidate is master level.

The lengthier tests are usually meant to impart a lesson to the student; their instructors already know that they have the skills.


No opinion: I think that such things need to be looked at on a case by case basis.


This is about the only thing on the list that I am critical of. It isn't so much that they have revised it, but more that they have presented it in a way that glosses over Japanese influences and implies a connection with pre-modern KMA.


Either they have or they haven't. Opinion should not enter the picture. I am not aware that the organization has "allowed" the practice. You are either ranked through them or you are not. If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is submitting an application for his sixth dan, it isn't going to happen.

If Master Gwae Jang Gaen leaves Korea as a third dan and thirty six hours later is faking his credentials, the Kukkiwon website will still list him as a third dan. Since there is no school membership, the Kukkiwon has no recourse unless the man has forged a Kukkiwon certificate.


I am ranked through them, but that is as far as it goes at this point. I run a hapkdio and kumdo studio, so I actually do not utilize them.

Daniel

Thank you Daniel. Keep in mind that these are general questions based on comments I've read in this and other threads that members have expressed concern towards.

 

[andyjeffries]

Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;

1. If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...

2. If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...

3. If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....

4. If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...

5. If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....

6. If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...

7.Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?

I've added numbers in to make it easier to reply.

1) I don't care if the KKW issues poom grades to any age. There has to be a certain amount of trust in a group that big, if it's abused then it doesn't devalue my achievements in any way.

2) I think that they will have had to be approved to test by a KKW 4th Dan or above, if they aren't physically required to test then it's just the same as accepting the 4th Dan's recommendation anyway. Also, 1st-3rd Dan are low ranks anyway so it doesn't really matter...

3) I agree with Daniel's point of view completely. How worthy is the examiner of their grade if they require an extensive test to be able to judge a candidate's skill. As has been pointed out, seniors often judge people based on noonchi which can really be described as inner spirit. They tell based on how you move/hold yourself/behave what level you're at. If they can't judge from a couple of minutes watching, they really shouldn't be testing others...

4) I don't mind how many ranks people skip. I think that people should hold the rank that they are worth. Whether they are worth it or not is a personal (how far along are they in their journey) type of question, but what rank people hold doesn't devalue my rank or achievements. Full disclosure: I've received a skip dan (of one dan grade) and my grandmaster felt I was worth that or above (but due to KKW rules could only skip me one grade) so I wasn't going to tell him that he was an incapable judge (see point 3). I had enough time in grade.

5) I think the KKW puts history in a favourable light. Like it or not the Korean people often have an issue with Japanese (due to the occupation) so it's unrealistic to think that any information put out by the country regarding their national sport will put one of their previous enemies in a favourable light.

6) I think the KKW sticks by it's rules in 99% of cases and if they choose to bend their rules, then it's their right. As it's run by people much more senior than me I'm happy to trust their judgement... I don't know the full facts of why.

7) I choose to support them because it gives me a sense of community. I feel that someone also graded in Kukki-Taekwondo is likely to have similar practices to me. While my X Dan may not equate exactly to their Y Day, we're likely doing the same stuff so we can practice together. My seniors have KKW rank and I'll give KKW rank to my students/juniors.

While I'm only middle rank (I guess), I think all the questions show a position where people are caught up in rank. Taekwondo for me is a personal journey of improvement. There are people ahead of me who help me along and there are people behind me who I help. Exactly how far people are ahead or behind is fairly irrelevant/unimportant.

 

[terryl965]

Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;



If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...

I do not have a problem with poom belts, I have a problem with them just changing over to a dan rank without another test. I choose to give another one myself at 18 before re-sending for there dan rank.

If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...

I also believe instructor should do the right thing when testing, but we know how that turns out

If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....

Well I never had that happen at any of my test so I have no opinion.

If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...

I believe you need to be tested at all level but again that is me and not them

If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....

Well of course but like alot of good businesses out there they all have stories

If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...

That has been the rumors since the 60's and 70's

Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?

Creature of habit, my instructr did so I do the same. Also you need a KKW for certain high level athlete to compete

 

[troubleenuf]

I think that thats 90% of us. We were taught that Kukkiwon was "it" so we continue to believe it even though the evidence that we have been shown in the past has shown that the certification dosnt actually do anything for us.
As far as needing it to compete, that is only for international competition if an athlete makes it that far.
I went to giving students a choice. I used to apply for 50 to 60 Kukkiwons a year. Now maybe 4 to 6 a year.

Creature of habit, my instructr did so I do the same. Also you need a KKW for certain high level athlete to compete

 

[ETinCYQX]

Again, just the way I see things today.

Here is a question for those members here that have a KKW Dan certification;

If you don't agree with the KKW issuing a certification to children of this age...

I wouldn't have done it but I don't have a big problem with it. I blame the instructor.

If you don't agree with the KKW allowing people to test up to 3rd Dan without having to physically be at the test...

That doesn't bother me.

If you don't like the KKW only requiring a couple of forms and a minute of sparring to make master....

Again, doesn't bother me. IMO whoever asks you to grade is responsible for thinking you know your stuff

If you don't like the KKW allowing multiple skipped ranks...

Very rare as far as I can tell.

If you opinion is the KKW has revised history to further their organization....

If in your opinion the KKW has allowed 'airport promotions' or other questionable practices...

Then why do you continue to utilize them? Do you 'need' them for some reason?

Simple, I like to compete and the amount of resources KKW affiliation provides me with around here is unparalleled.

 

[msmitht]

see? this is just like the snotty chick in high school saying "they hate me cuz i am pretty"

no, they hate her cuz she is a snot......



TKD is becomming a joke, why?

the KKW and the WTF

all the 5 year old bb's, the 10K dollar promotions, the 2 year blackbelts, the totally MADE UP HISTORY that anyone can see through

hell, a good friend of mine has a korean master, and they were told "a gift to the master is highly reccomended, last year all the testers pitched in and got him tickets to visit korea"

thats on top of the testing fee

WTH???.......

the olympics? pffffft, it wasnt even televised, so yeah....wtf tkd yippie!!! its like archery!!!!


hell, even CURLING is televised......tkd? NOPE


i get that people who are invested in a certain system will feel a need to defend that system, but COME ON

I normally agree with you....but,
Most of the above are american tkd issues. In korea they treat tkd like a sport. Poom grade, and they do wear POOM, is earned in 1-2 years. Most do not continue. Tkd history is horrible in the us. In korea they are realistic. They admit the karate connection, but they made many changes that have allowed tkd to become unique. Anyone who came here before 1973, and those who learned from them, is teaching something that does not exist in korea today.
Instructors can charge what they want (I charge 250) for promotions. If the student is dumb enough to pay ten grand then it is their loss.
Do I think a 6 year old should be 1st poom? I would have to see them on the mat to know. I would hope that the belt is POOM and not black.
My gm was strict. No black belt till 16. Then again, he was old school.