Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news
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Whatever Puunui.
Cannot speak for other orgs, but within the KKW, it is a non-issue; nobody under fifteen gets one.
Given that a pum is a child's rank, I'm fine with it.
Daniel
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
then i have no use for you or the KookieJuan
But black belt is not a rank; it represents the rank of first dan. A pum is not a dan and is supposed to be represented by a red/black belt.
Like it or not, kiddies wearing black belts are here to stay. And the subject will always evoke strong opinions.
Regardless of where people stand on it, its not about the belt anyway, so no need for all the fuss that people make over it.
Daniel
And some of those kids are the future. We will not be around forever.
I was really young, taking Judo, when my grandfather and I spoke about the history of judo ranks and the development of the color belt system. As a kid I was always asking why why why and luckily I had parents, a grandfather and teachers who actively encouraged my curious nature by patiently answering my all questions as best they could. And when they reached the point where they couldn't answer, they encouraged me to look for the answer myself, including but not limited to taking me to the library and/or buying me books on subjects that I was interested in (including martial arts books).
But again, I was really young when I had that judo rank conversation with my grandfather, and I began to wonder if I was remembering the conversation incorrectly. So I did a quick internet search and found this:
http://judoinfo.com/obi.htm
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Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black obi (belts) in 1886. These obi weren't the belts karateka and judoka wear today -- Kano hadn't invented the judogi (Judo uniform) yet, and his students were still practicing in kimono. They were the wide obi still worn with formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern judogi and its modern obi, but he still only used white and black belt ranks. The white uniform represented the values of purity, avoidance of ego, and simplicity. It gave no outward indication of social class so that all students began as equals. The black belt with the white gi represents the polarity of opposites, or In and Yo. The student begins empty, but fills up with knowledge.
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Here is another webpage which discusses how rank in the game Go are used to handicap players:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(game)#Ranks_and_ratings
In Go, rank indicates a player's skill in the game. Traditionally, ranks are measured using kyu and dan grades,[46] a system which also has been adopted by many martial arts. More recently, mathematical rating systems similar to the Elo rating system have been introduced.[47] Such rating systems often provide a mechanism for converting a rating to a kyu or dan grade.[47] Kyu grades (abbreviated k) are considered student grades and decrease as playing level increases, meaning 1st kyu is the strongest available kyu grade. Dan grades (abbreviated d) are considered master grades, and increase from 1st dan to 7th dan. First dan equals a black belt in eastern martial arts using this system. The difference among each amateur rank is one handicap stone. For example, if a 5k plays a game with a 1k, the 5k would need a handicap of four stones to even the odds. Top-level amateur players sometimes defeat professionals in tournament play.[48] Professional players have professional dan ranks (abbreviated p), these ranks are separate from amateur ranks
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As I stretch my memory to the very edge, I want to say that my grandfather told me at one point, the judo kyu ranks were white and red belts, followed by dan ranks of black red and white again. The senior red belt dan rank was a double wide red belt (similar to what the professor in CHA3 Kenpo wears) while the 12th Dan double wide white belt was reserved for Professor Kano only. The double wide red and white belts were a returning of the beginning so to speak, and there has been a lot written about that philosophical topic such that I don't really need to get into it here. Later, they went with brown belt and made red belt the single version that we see today and the double white belt has been discontinued once Kano Sensei passed away.
I cannot say for certain if this is what he actually said to me though. I do remember the white and black belts only comment, especially in relation to the game of Go, because my grandfather had a Go set in the house and it was a visually striking reminder of where the rank system came from. So I remember that part. But the other part was probably too much information for a seven year old to absorb and I couldn't relate to red belt because I never saw one at that point. My judo teacher (my grandfather's longtime friend) did have a red/white belt, but not red. So I don't remember that part so good.
But it does make sense that Judo may have originally used a red belt instead of a brown belt for senior kyu holders, especially when you take that subject in conjunction with what GM LEE Won Kuk said about the original Shotokan belt system, which was white, red and black. GM Lee said that the kyu rank colors for Shotokan at the time he studied there was white and red, which was the colors of the Japan flag. This was pre WW II Japan, which was a highly nationalistic and militaristic time, sort of how like Germany was ramping up for WW II. But I am unclear.
When GM Lee returned to he chose the name Chungdo or Bluewaves for his school. Coincidentally, when you add the blue from the Chungdokwan name to the other belt colors of white red and black (the system used by the Chungdokwan) you get the colors of the Korean flag.
But beyond all of that, I would like to say that I am sure that you are very good at your job as an LEO. And I am also sure that you teach a very good 8-24 hour course on self defense and knife defense, especially when geared towards those similarly situated to yourself, which is LEO.
However, I think the expertise that you no doubt have in this area, for whatever reason, does not translate over to other aspects of the martial arts. History for one, or discussions regarding competition under the WTF Rules for another. It is sort of ironic, given your position that sport competition does not translate well into self defense scenarios. I think this has come out mainly in our historical discussions, where I basically force you to stretch to the very limits of your knowledge on the subject.
Once at this point, I guess there are two general ways that you can respond. One is to do what good competitors do, which is to understand the areas that may need work and go do that work, grateful that it was pointed out early, in a tournament of no consequence, rather than at team trials or higher. In this way, we see our "opponent" not as the "enemy" but someone who is assisting us on our journey of self discovery. Probably the best thing that can happen to a competitor is to "lose" a match, because it forces the competitor to look at him or herself realistically and to do an honest self assessment. This is one of the ways that Taekwondo translates into a team sport, because we can learn from even those who are wearing a different color hogu that we are. This is the way that the tournament champion thinks and acts, and I believe that it is the way champions in life also act.
The other way to respond is to become angry resentful and bitter, lashing out and/or laying in wait while plotting your revenge. Some competitors respond this way, but generally they do not go very far, and most probably quit competing, blaming referees, or the rules, or whatever else for their "failure".
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andyjeffries
Senior Master
The amazing thing about go (or baduk as we're on a KMA board) is how well the handicap system works. When I've played on occasions with my 8 year old son (just on a 9x9 board) we find a handicap that works and at that point I can play to the best of my ability and we'll have a fair mixture of wins/losses.
In any other sport one of you has to "hold back" or the handicaps aren't uniform (e.g. in chess if you take away one of your pieces to handicap yourself against a worse player, it's not a uniform handicap - the piece taken away completely changes your game/strategies available).
Taekwondo sparring, there are guys I beat and guys that beat me. If I suddenly took one of the kicks out of the arsenal the better guy uses, they would likely still win they'd just use different kicks. To make it a fair/even fight one person has to hold back or take it easy on the other person.
I used to enjoy playing go (I was never particularly great, but was the best among a few friends that played) until my most regular playing partner died (not from play go, I hasten to add). It's a great game. I've tried playing against the computer and occasionally against other friends, but we used to enjoy a regular game of go and some bro-time...
Okay Puunui, let's have an open diologue with each other. To begin with, I'm not angry, bitter or resentful towards you. I am frustrated with you and I'll explain why. It seems that in the majority of the threads I've authored, or posts that I've made in response to another’s thread you appear right after with some type of negative reply. My perception is that if I say 'white' you’re determined to say 'black'. I have to date, reached out three separate times to formulate a peace between us. Twice on the open board and once to your email. You never responded via email and the one time on the board you did half-respond was less than favorable. The combination of this and ping-ponging back and forth with you over mostly trivial details gets tiresome.
However...
If this is your way of reaching out a hand in peace and friendship then you'll find an open hand in return. You are entitled to your opinion. But the reverse is equally true; I'm entitled to my opinion. And our respective opinions are based upon our individual experiences. I'm not out to make an enemy and I'm not out to disrespect anyone. But I'm not out to be disrespected either.
You seem to be very knowledgeable on Korean history. That's fine. You also seem to hold the KKW in high regard and perhaps have had a good experience with them. I'm happy that you have. Not everyone unfortunately can say the same. And to be fair, it is not the KKW in-and-of-itself but some....and I repeat some that operate high within its ranks. My instructor is GM Dunn. He is former NYPD and I have the utmost respect for him, his training and his teaching ability. And yes, we have that 'cop-bond' between us.
He was very loyal to his Korean GM who brought him up to 3rd Dan KKW with the proper TIG for each grade. The full details of the story is not mine to tell, suffice it to say that when the Korean GM's brings in a Korean buddy who is a blue belt and instructs you to bring him up to speed on all the forms and then within the year is sitting at the masters table as a 4th Dan...well it strains the relationship. Oh, this Korean gentleman was only 1st Dan KKW, but in the HMK chain of command he was a 4th Dan. So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man. GM Dunn did not bother with having the 5th and up KKW as he was satisfied with GM Davies and his organization. GM Dunn's 8th came from the five original school owners that formed the IKSDA. He didn't want it (and still doesn't) but we asked him to assume this rank since the IKSDA was partly his brain child and as our senior in the arts and in years we felt it appropriate. Call it a peer reviewed promotion. Call it an organizational appointment. But we wanted one central ranking authority and since he's been in the arts overall since the mid-60's, he was our choice. And in full disclosure, we all wanted him to take a 9th in our organization. He wouldn't do it.
Under him I am officially a 6th Dan as of last year. This does not count my prior MA training before GM Dunn. He 'requested' that I continue to be exactly one grade below him since I will be the successor and he didn't want me jumping rank if something unexpected happened to him. I can see this as I've personally seen systems fall apart when the inheritor shoots up unexpectedly upon the passing of a founder. It happened in Uechi Ryu in the early 90's when Kammei Uechi (Kanei's son and Kanbun's grandson) took the reigns. He went from a much lower Dan to 10th in one shot. The result; Uechi Ryu broke into at least 16 different factions because of egos. I said fine as it was important to begin establishing a hierarchy. It wasn't about the rank. I have not physically worn a belt since 2005. Most of my students don't even know what rank I carry in the IKSDA. So I can be accepted and respected as a 7th Dan or not, at the individuals discretion. What matters to me is what I can do and what I can teach. And on that point I stand firm and I'll willingly go on deck with anyone that wants to see what I'm about. That isn't an internet challange and should not be taken as such. That is me saying judge me on what I do and teach and not what I wear.
So there it is and that's the deal.
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
And when everything is said and done if you were or were not certified by the Kukkiwon it would not change what you know or how good you were or were not in any way shape or form. It dosnt change who you are or who you will be.
From my perspective, it is more like you are saying something like the name for front kick in korean is dollyochagi, and I comment that the word is actually apchagi. If you consider that negative, because your opinion is that dollyochagi means front kick, then I guess you are entitled to your "opinion", whereas I am talking about simple facts. What are the original belt colors in judo? The answer is a fact, not an opinion.
Perhaps I operate from a different cultural and philosophical system than you do. Perhaps we value different things. Perhaps if you wished to make peace then you would be acting in a different fashion than even what you are doing now.
There are no trivial details. Mastery is in the details. Everything is important to everything else, especially if you want to understand things from a big picture perspective. The difference between a beginner and an advanced practitioner is their attention to the details.
It is not reaching out a hand, but rather an attempt to see things from a different perspective. I'll give you a recent discussion I had with a very high Korean born senior who I have become close to over the years. When I first met him, over twenty years ago, he was very formal, and I understood what that meant, and acted accordingly. Ten years after that, I served as his escort during his visit to Hawaii for the US Open. He was very hard on me and would publicly reprimand me for the slightest infraction in front of all the other seniors. I never got upset and took it as it was meant to be taken, which was a learning experience.
But he recently said to me that one of the things that he remembered most was when I was visiting his dojang for something. He entered the room, and I immediately stood up and bowed to him, the only one who did so. This was several years ago and he just brought it up. I said that it was not the junior's place to relax the formality between us, that it was the senior who was in control of that dynamic. I also told him that while I appreciated how relaxed he has become in my presence, I also said that I recognized the difference in our relative positions and that I would never consider him my friend, no matter how friendly he acted towards me. For example, I would never slap him on the back and call him by his first name. I could sense the great appreciation for the deep understanding that I had for his point of view, that I treated him according to his perspective, and not my own American point of view. It was another in a long line of things that bring us closer as far as our relationship goes. I act this way with all my seniors.
You are entitled to your opinions on matters of opinion; however, you are not entitled to present false information as truth, or for that matter, as opinion either.
I am not out to make an enemy either; as to whether you are disrespecting me or whether you are disrespected is your own perception to which I have no control. I will say that at times some have commented that they felt you were being disrespectful to me; my response was that you probably felt the "adrenal dump" of being challenged in a way that you probably never have been challenged before, and was acting on instinct, from your own perspective. I do think that your perspective is changing, at least a little.
Then you need to refocus your comments and speak of the individuals in question and not condemn the Kukkiwon or Taekwondo as a whole, which to tell you the truth, has been your approach up until now. I see this is especially true on your message board. Perhaps there is another approach that you can explore in this regard.
Why would that story, even if true, affect GM Dunn's relationship to his teacher? One of my teachers did almost the same thing, with the exception that I didn't actually teach the person in question. This person went on to all kinds of negative things, or at least he attempted to do so. When I spoke to my teacher about it, asking him why he promoted this loser, my teacher's response was "I don't tell you what to do." After that, I never raised the subject ever again and we continued with our teacher student relationship.
You mean through the World Ildokwan Federation? That is a topic in itself. I met GM Davies' brother in Korea at the Kukkiwon Branch meeting last year or the year before.
I saw GM Kim at the last Taekwondo Hall of Fame gathering. He walked up to me and asked me in Korean whether I saw GM KWON Jae Hwa anywhere. I politely answered in English that I hadn't seen him but if I did, I would tell him that he was looking for him.
Who were the peers, you and James Ray? Are you familiar with Mr. Ray's history as well? There is a story in itself. One of my direct seniors has personal knowledge on that front. I don't know if we need to get into that at the moment.
Successor to what?
In personality driven organizations, that is the normal and expected course, to break up into smaller organizations. The ITF did it, and to a certain extent so did the JKA, first when FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei passed away and then again when Nakayama Sensei passed. You can try and stop it, but I think it is inevitable, unless there is some clear successor that everyone agrees with, like the founder's son or someone like that. Aikido has that dynamic, although it did suffer its own splitting with Tohei Sensei and his Ki Society.
So if and when you teach a class in Kong Soo Do (as opposed to self defense courses), you practice in street clothes?
You actually are being looked at by what you do. When we have our discussions, I look at it from the perspective of learning, of sharpening my perspective by the types of responses I receive. I think one of the issues is that you are looking at it from a different angle. One of my juniors who has been reading my stuff since the very beginning, said that reading my posts is like watching a friday night sparring class, and the ones who get the most upset are the ones who don't take it in that way. I don't know how much friday night sparring class you have participated in, but one of the ideas that everyone understands is that you don't get mad at your partner, especially if you are getting hit. He said that everyone knows that you only get better when you go up against someone who is better than you are, and that these people should be grateful that someone is challenging them, the alternative being no challenge and remaining in the same self imposed prison of ideas, sitting in their small pond. People challenge me all the time, I just take them on one by one, in an effort to get better, clearer and more incisive.
In other words, I write these posts for me, so I improve. Why do you write posts?
Ok.
Maybe not. Or maybe so, because not having Kukkiwon certification does limits one's options, and one's student's options. The fact of the matter is that today more so than yesterday, more people are aware of Kukkiwon certification and more people desire Kukkiwon certification than ever. Look at all the crazy things people do to obtain it. For some people, it's like the Treasure of Sierra Madre, they want it, and they want to keep others from getting it. To me, Kukkiwon certification should be available for everyone, that everyone can and should receive it automatically as a consequence of receiving poom or dan level promotions in Taekwondo. It is certainly not some sort of treasure than needs to be horded.
Hi Puunui,
I mentioned early on in one of our ping-pong matches that some very good folks were PMing me with little tidbits about you. Well, the PM's keep coming as does the phone calls. From those folks, and my own personal observations I knew you liked to drop a lot of names. And it was fairly obvious that you were pretty smitten with yourself. But I had no idea how petty you could be until a little research on Dojang Digest. You remember DD don't you Glenn? And all the friends you made.
At any rate, I figured everyone is worth a few opportunities to prove themselves. Unfortunately, you failed to do so. I just don't see you growing out of the need to continually try to get a rise out of people in your posts. And then playing the victim when they call you on it. I just can't respect that level of maturity. Perhaps you simply crave the attention?
So this is in all likelyhood my last response to you. Feel free to keep stalking me from thread to thread. In a way I suppose it is flattering. Hugs and kisses from the Self-Defense Guy.
I believe Twin Fist said it best when he simply stated, "I don't have any use for you".
I mentioned early on in one of our ping-pong matches that some very good folks were PMing me with little tidbits about you. Well, the PM's keep coming as does the phone calls. From those folks, and my own personal observations I knew you liked to drop a lot of names. And it was fairly obvious that you were pretty smitten with yourself. But I had no idea how petty you could be until a little research on Dojang Digest. You remember DD don't you Glenn? And all the friends you made.
At any rate, I figured everyone is worth a few opportunities to prove themselves. Unfortunately, you failed to do so. I just don't see you growing out of the need to continually try to get a rise out of people in your posts. And then playing the victim when they call you on it. I just can't respect that level of maturity. Perhaps you simply crave the attention?
So this is in all likelyhood my last response to you. Feel free to keep stalking me from thread to thread. In a way I suppose it is flattering. Hugs and kisses from the Self-Defense Guy.
I believe Twin Fist said it best when he simply stated, "I don't have any use for you".
No problem. And yes I do remember DD. Where is it now?
I will leave you with this though, we are known by the company we keep.ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
That makes 3 of us. As Ive said before, some people get so high up in an org (not just in MA's but all walks of life), that they are simply not used to people not bowing down to their every word. Suddenly, they come to an open forum where people have their own opinions and theories and these people think that their word is gospel and we should just accept anything they say. The thing that sets apart certain posters (Terry, daniel, earl etc etc), is that while they have years of experience and a heap of knowledge they still respect and take onboard the opinions of other posters. Forums work because everyone can get together and throw ideas around and learn. As soon as someone comes along acting all high and mighty thinking their views and opinions are somehow more valid than others, then the whole balance gets thrown out. But then as I was told on here once - "what would I know, Im only a first dan"
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
Actually I have seen just the opposite. More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it. The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak. There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.
Is that how you feel about Kukkiwon certification? And when you say "empty", do you mean like how the sacred scroll in Kung Fu Panda was empty?
Not sure why anyone would think this. The Kukkiwon does not take your money directly and the amount that they ask for registration is comparatively negligible. It is instructors and school owners who are taking money from students. Fourth dan and higher instructors are invested with the authority to recommend a candidate for promotion. The Kukkiwon does not police their choice because the Kukkiwon is not designed to police schools. There are no 'member schools'; only individuals who hold rank, some of whom are fourth dan or higher and some of whom own schools.
If the Kukkiwon was policing schools, then people would complain that this 'ferrin bunch o' guys I don know from Adam' are telling us Amuricans how to run our schools. How dare they?
And there never was. Anymore than a superbowl ring makes the players on the NFL champion team any better. Hard work, practice, and good instruction make you better. The paper is merely proof of registration.
Daniel
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I have to agree with this, and I know people who will say that Im saying that because Im 'anti kukkiwon' (which Im certainly not, Ive seen some great kukkiwon tkdists), but I hear more and more negative things about the kukkiwon all the time. I can understand people emersed in the kukkiwon system defending it because they are so engrained in the whole thing, but from an outsider looking in, I just dont hear a lot of positives other than the fact that your rank is 'transferable', but if you dont know the kukkiwon curriculum (such is my case), then I dont really see what it offers. I have the option of getting a kukkiwon certification through my GM but have never really seen the point.
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