Thank you for this post. And thank you everyone for your posts as well. It has been interesting and educational.
Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news
- Thread starter andyjeffries
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Thank you for this post. And thank you everyone for your posts as well. It has been interesting and educational.
Not true. You do not need a kkw to compete in local, state, nat qualifier or nationals. The kkw cert is required to compete at wtf world championships, the olympic games and their qualifying events. Truth be told several competitors @bejing in 2008 did not have kkw certs (france and spain).
That is what I was saying only for those elites going for certain events
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
There was some discussion a while back why someone in the US had to be certified by a foreign country represent their own country?
Originally Posted by puunui
Personally, I think it is jeolousy. Sour grapes. It's easy to criticize something that you don't have (Kukkiwon certification) and don't understand (sparring with your arms at your sides). I used to fight against the changes that are facing Taekwondo, but now I just go with the flow. There are just too many wildly successful dojang out there, a lot of them run by seniors, friends, and juniors. They can laugh and joke all they want about Taekwondo's "demise", while the financially successful sabum laugh too, all the way to the bank, in their bentley.
Not all the blame can be put on the greedy instructor willing to compromise priciples. Some of the blame is on the individual, or in some cases the parent(s) that are willing to pay. No one is forcing them. As they say, a fool and his money....
Here we can agree completely.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I can relate to this. Our GM stayed with the kukkiwon for as long a he could but eventually he just had to leave for many of the reasons you stated. He eventually didnt see the point in supporting an org that was making decisions he didnt agree with. I personally dont think the kukkiwon is much better or worse than most large orgs. What I find funny is that many people with kukkiwon certificates think that somehow their rank is of more importance/significance or has more credibility because they have a "kukkiwon black belt". But when I hear about all the kiddie black belts and skip dans and poom belts (which really are just bb anyway) and the fact that anyone over a certain rank can just promote anyone and the kukkiwon will just stamp the cert and the outlandish costs for promotions etc etc , it just makes me wonder what is so special about the kukkiwon. Some here would say Im 'jelous', but realistically I train at a club that does none of the above and actually makes it "harder" to get a black belt so why would I be jelous of not having a cert from an org that has easier standards? I just dont get it. As I say, the kukkiwon is probably no better or worse than a lot of large orgs except they manage to brainwash people into thinking their rank has extra credibility despite being easier to get. Just makes no sense to me at all. Surely the harder something is to get the more credibility it has, and the easier something is to obtain the less credibility it has. At least thats how it works with most other things in life.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Exactly, and a lot of clubs I know of are ceasing their involvment because they are realising that the cert doesnt actually do anything for them. When mum and dad put little johnny into tkd they usually have no idea what the kukkiwon actually is and unless little johnny wants to go to the olympics the cert is of little to no value. I believe our club went through a 'transition phase' where you got our club cert and had the option of also getting a kukkiwon one, eventually no one asked for the kukkiwon one as they didnt see any need for it and it slowly became obsolete.
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
The thing you have to remember is that 30 years ago the Kukkiwon did have credibility. But over the years that credibility has been spread pretty thin. They have no oversight. None. You cant deny it. They have standards, yes, but they are minimal and without oversight they are meaningless. I would love to say that a Kukkiwon black belt meant what it used to mean. But in reality it does not. So you have many of the "old guard" standing their ground and supporting the Kukkiwon because thats what they were taught and its easier to stand by it than to step back and take a real look at what it truly is. I know... Im one of them and I still have a hard time with it.
In todays world you have to take each person that walks in the door and check their ability no matter what they say their certification is. Its unfortunate but true. Like it or not.
In todays world you have to take each person that walks in the door and check their ability no matter what they say their certification is. Its unfortunate but true. Like it or not.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
Very interesting. It seems very strange to me that you need a kukki cert to compete in certain events. As far as Im concerned, if someone shows up to compete, and fights within the ruleset then I couldnt care less where they got their black belt. Again, it stinks of someone trying to make money. As somebody has said previously on this subject, I can go and compete in a number of marathons, get good results and roll up and compete in the olympics, I dont need to be a member of a certain marathon running org, if Im good enough I can compete. Same goes for most sports, not just olympic ones.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
That is almost word for word what my original instructor told me when I asked about the kukkiwon. I remember in primary school I lived in the same street as our GM. I didnt do tkd way back then but everyone in our area knew of our GM and his reputation. I remember he would go back to korea for promotion from the kukkiwon and it was a major thing in our community and he was very proud of his achievment as he obviously held the kukkiwon in high regard. So I can certainly see that "back in the day" the kukkiwon had credibility but as you say, these days its credibility has been spread very thin.
For me, karate means more than just memorizing the techniques, and children don't have the physical body that they will have as adults. Until they do, I don't consider them capable of truly learning or understanding karate, or training to the degree required to achieve a black belt.
Now, I say that, but I didn't have to run three miles. But I did have to battle three trained karate fighters simultaneously. I didn't have to memorize a hundred words in a foreign language. But I did have to memorize over a hundred fighting techniques. I didn't have to break boards or bricks, but we did practice our techniques on the heavy bag with full force and on the body with sufficient force to injure our training partners if they didn't properly protect themselves.
It's hard for me to see how a six year old could earn a black belt in the kind of hard fighting karate that I teach. I don't think he'd be physically, mentally, or emotionally mature enough to handle the training. That's why our child students don't get the same kind of training as our adult students. They are more like students-in-training. They are learning how to learn real karate someday. Honestly, the adult training is so rigorous that I wouldn't feel comfortable subjecting children to it. I try to be careful how much striking and grappling I do with children, especially at more advanced levels of intensity. Their little bodies are still growing and I don't want to cause them life changing permanent injury by stressing their joints or bodies to severely.
It doesn't really matter anyway. There's no standard for "black belt." It only has any real meaning to the instructor who hands it out and the student who receives it. No one else knows what went in to earning it.
I can't say the six year old didn't deserve it. I can say I wouldn't award a black belt to a six year old. I wouldn't award a black belt to anyone who wasn't at least approaching physical maturity. I think that's too important to truly understanding techniques. But that's me.
-Rob
Now, I say that, but I didn't have to run three miles. But I did have to battle three trained karate fighters simultaneously. I didn't have to memorize a hundred words in a foreign language. But I did have to memorize over a hundred fighting techniques. I didn't have to break boards or bricks, but we did practice our techniques on the heavy bag with full force and on the body with sufficient force to injure our training partners if they didn't properly protect themselves.
It's hard for me to see how a six year old could earn a black belt in the kind of hard fighting karate that I teach. I don't think he'd be physically, mentally, or emotionally mature enough to handle the training. That's why our child students don't get the same kind of training as our adult students. They are more like students-in-training. They are learning how to learn real karate someday. Honestly, the adult training is so rigorous that I wouldn't feel comfortable subjecting children to it. I try to be careful how much striking and grappling I do with children, especially at more advanced levels of intensity. Their little bodies are still growing and I don't want to cause them life changing permanent injury by stressing their joints or bodies to severely.
It doesn't really matter anyway. There's no standard for "black belt." It only has any real meaning to the instructor who hands it out and the student who receives it. No one else knows what went in to earning it.
I can't say the six year old didn't deserve it. I can say I wouldn't award a black belt to a six year old. I wouldn't award a black belt to anyone who wasn't at least approaching physical maturity. I think that's too important to truly understanding techniques. But that's me.
-Rob
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I know when I teach kids that they absorb the material very differently to adults. Adults dont just accept anything "because thats the way it is", they want to know why, how, when etc , they want to understand the bio mechanics of what they are learning and want to know why things are done a certain way. Kids tend to just accept things and are less curious as to why? I see this really come into play during self defence techs where adults can generally pool their knowledge together and work out why a tech isnt working or how to improve it, whereas with children if its not working they tend to just ask for help without really thinking it through. Basically, adults can apply the knowledge they've learnt better than kids.
Terry I agree but while some people here are using this as an oportunity to bash KKW and TKD does anyone remember the national news of a monkey Chimpanzee being given a Black Belt in Karate they even showed him training the DoJo with the master who awarded him the belt. Young children can be very cute and proficient on many levels but 8 years old is considered the age of minimal accountability and reason with many stages to age 26 before 8 it can be monkey see monkey do with hopefully all positive outcomes.
Regardless the monkey getting a Black Belt did not reflect on Karate or the organization in general but instead the instructors judgment in seriously considering a monkey a true Black Belt?
Honorary Black Belts are given for many purposes and BB to people/beginers over 70 who could not possibly perform at the same level of more youthfull students but is still given consideration for effort? Belts hold up pants and certificates are for walls the street determines fact from fiction that said at least I would hope this little 6 year old would be 400% less likely to be a child abducted or abused then the 6 year old that had never trained. Sad to say there are many KKW bb holders of a variety of ages that could be less proficient than this 6 year old but that said it still begs the question of the motivation to advance to Poom at such a young age however Poom is not 1st Dan they must wait untill 15 but if this becomes a norm and time in rank applied then we could start seeing 4th Dan or higher at 15? is this a race to capture market share? Nothing seems to have changed since the early 70's money corupts lots of money absolutely corupts?
mastercole
Master Black Belt
(for some reason I difficultly spacing this, I hope it comes on in readable format)
Since we are looking at very large, public & social Taekwondo organization (s) and their possible negatives, let's look at another hypothetical but possible scenario
I am sure that none of us on this board fall into such a hypothetical category. You don't have to be with the greater Taekwondo movement, but, the question becomes, what are you actually with?
We know that most Asian/Oriental martial arts stress that the individual grow. White belt student grows into black belt student, grows into instructor, coach, trainer, referee or just good senior & mentor, grows into leader within local Taekwondo, then international Taekwondo, within sports, within the community and within the world. Through all this is hopefully the goal to understanding the self and then others, helping others, providing opportunities for other, etc is desirable.
However, let's pretend there are a group of Taekwondo practitioners who spun off from the world's largest, public & social Taekwondo organizations:
Here is their hypothetical situaiton
- made it only part way through Taekwondo growth phase
- did not developed a traditional, respectful, long lasting relationship with their instructor
- though they strive to be a part of the Asian/Oriental martial arts mystic, when they encountered the culture it feels to foreign and awkward, they fail to grasp it or adapt
- their relationship with their instructor and big seniors becomes fractured and ends, in Taekwondo culture this means any relationship in a traditional sense with Taekwondo ends
This creates a problem for this hypothetical group
One, because Taekwondo culture is Korean culture, a culture centered on relationships between junior, senior and peer practitioners. Puunui can tell you that it is amazing how long, and how healthy these relationships can be.
Two, because they now cut off their access to learning more about technique, training, etc, so learning stops where their relationship stops
Here is the sad path this hypothetical group (not naming any group) might follow:
- eventually no one in the greater social Taekwondo world is paying attention to them
- the only relationship they had to the international Taekwondo world, is gone
- they feel outcast from the main stream pubic & social structure of Taekwondo
- now few people actually know them, or even who they are. In a culture where everything is based on who you are related to, they are an unknown entity
- they search out and find a handful of like minded people to cling to, they form a "committee" of all members of the group, usually 4 or 5, like, "The Gang of Five"
- since real learning about Taekwondo stopped, they begin to fabricate everything from history, stories, personal background, training methods and the reasoning behind it all but the fact is, their skills do not advance, regressing over from time being isolated
- they have no goal training at, or, actual experience interacting with the top educators of Taekwondo at public, large populous Taekwondo institutions
- they have no goal training at, or, actual experience at mixing in with the international Taekwondo community at Hanmadang, World Expo, Taekwondo Park, etc
- they have no goal participating in, or, actual experience at a World level WTF event, like World Championships, or the Olympics
- they never understand the value and relationship of international sports and world peace and Taekwondo's role and achievement in that world movement
after time, having never reached their full potential in Taekwondo they begin to turn on their former martial art and it's practitioners, all 80,000,000 of them, they fill with hate and begin to act with hate
This hypothetical group shuns the real world of Taekwondo and recluses into their own sterile world of self created dogma
- they strive for recognition and kudos as the leader of their small, isolated group
- leadership makes repetitious statements on how bad the mainstream and try to get others to repeat it, so they begin to believe it
- their hidden agenda becomes "Isolation, Separation & Alienation" from the mainstream
- they isolate their handful of students from even the general population in their town, teaching them out of their bathroom or garage, or somewhere hidden away from the public eye, indoctrinating them with their hate filled propaganda
- The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the a viable system for change that will solve old problems or the larger organizations ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to indoctrination and propaganda discourage their participation in with the greater pool of people in their activity, and stunts their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader
- the group is no longer accountable to any main stream authority in their martial art
- the group leadership has the special mission of trying to "save" practitioners from the wrongs of the mainstream
- leadership claims connection to older, more traditional roots and values of the past
- the group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society
- they publish their negative assessment of the mainstream group attempting to recruit others with broken relationships
It is important to maintain relationships. With your family, friends, associates, etc.
Since we are looking at very large, public & social Taekwondo organization (s) and their possible negatives, let's look at another hypothetical but possible scenario
I am sure that none of us on this board fall into such a hypothetical category. You don't have to be with the greater Taekwondo movement, but, the question becomes, what are you actually with?
We know that most Asian/Oriental martial arts stress that the individual grow. White belt student grows into black belt student, grows into instructor, coach, trainer, referee or just good senior & mentor, grows into leader within local Taekwondo, then international Taekwondo, within sports, within the community and within the world. Through all this is hopefully the goal to understanding the self and then others, helping others, providing opportunities for other, etc is desirable.
However, let's pretend there are a group of Taekwondo practitioners who spun off from the world's largest, public & social Taekwondo organizations:
Here is their hypothetical situaiton
- made it only part way through Taekwondo growth phase
- did not developed a traditional, respectful, long lasting relationship with their instructor
- though they strive to be a part of the Asian/Oriental martial arts mystic, when they encountered the culture it feels to foreign and awkward, they fail to grasp it or adapt
- their relationship with their instructor and big seniors becomes fractured and ends, in Taekwondo culture this means any relationship in a traditional sense with Taekwondo ends
This creates a problem for this hypothetical group
One, because Taekwondo culture is Korean culture, a culture centered on relationships between junior, senior and peer practitioners. Puunui can tell you that it is amazing how long, and how healthy these relationships can be.
Two, because they now cut off their access to learning more about technique, training, etc, so learning stops where their relationship stops
Here is the sad path this hypothetical group (not naming any group) might follow:
- eventually no one in the greater social Taekwondo world is paying attention to them
- the only relationship they had to the international Taekwondo world, is gone
- they feel outcast from the main stream pubic & social structure of Taekwondo
- now few people actually know them, or even who they are. In a culture where everything is based on who you are related to, they are an unknown entity
- they search out and find a handful of like minded people to cling to, they form a "committee" of all members of the group, usually 4 or 5, like, "The Gang of Five"
- since real learning about Taekwondo stopped, they begin to fabricate everything from history, stories, personal background, training methods and the reasoning behind it all but the fact is, their skills do not advance, regressing over from time being isolated
- they have no goal training at, or, actual experience interacting with the top educators of Taekwondo at public, large populous Taekwondo institutions
- they have no goal training at, or, actual experience at mixing in with the international Taekwondo community at Hanmadang, World Expo, Taekwondo Park, etc
- they have no goal participating in, or, actual experience at a World level WTF event, like World Championships, or the Olympics
- they never understand the value and relationship of international sports and world peace and Taekwondo's role and achievement in that world movement
after time, having never reached their full potential in Taekwondo they begin to turn on their former martial art and it's practitioners, all 80,000,000 of them, they fill with hate and begin to act with hate
This hypothetical group shuns the real world of Taekwondo and recluses into their own sterile world of self created dogma
- they strive for recognition and kudos as the leader of their small, isolated group
- leadership makes repetitious statements on how bad the mainstream and try to get others to repeat it, so they begin to believe it
- their hidden agenda becomes "Isolation, Separation & Alienation" from the mainstream
- they isolate their handful of students from even the general population in their town, teaching them out of their bathroom or garage, or somewhere hidden away from the public eye, indoctrinating them with their hate filled propaganda
- The leader claims to be breaking with tradition, offering something novel, and instituting the a viable system for change that will solve old problems or the larger organizations ills. But these claims are empty and only used to recruit members who are then surreptitiously subjected to indoctrination and propaganda discourage their participation in with the greater pool of people in their activity, and stunts their ability to examine the actual validity of the claims of the leader
- the group is no longer accountable to any main stream authority in their martial art
- the group leadership has the special mission of trying to "save" practitioners from the wrongs of the mainstream
- leadership claims connection to older, more traditional roots and values of the past
- the group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society
- they publish their negative assessment of the mainstream group attempting to recruit others with broken relationships
It is important to maintain relationships. With your family, friends, associates, etc.
Think of it as an Elks Lodge you join and stay for the fraternal reasons as well and the many things it has to offer once granted entrance to the facility. Also it gives a direct tie to the origins of the art with support and travel to Korea directly beyond what you get with just a one person perspective. Everyone seems to leave the A out of MA there should be a creative, cultural and artistic side to any indiginous MA and even after all the politics money and other issues asside you get that from a global organization a feeling of belonging more than aaaah your Kung Fu no good. Some people are very lucky to part of a single Dojang or Dojo that gives them all that and others progress to a national or global organization but for me its about family being part of it for better or worse because you love them and they love you. I think the high presure high marketing dojang business only don't get involved or invested in your students beyond a financial interest is a load of crap but in a free market system some one will buy it?
And that is a legitimate issue to discuss. To a certain extent I can understand the 'old guards' view as they've likely spent thousands of dollars on training, promotions, certifications etc in addition to the time in training factor as well. But at the same time, they have also stood by and enabled those in the KKW to do things that many have found questionable. As has been stated by others in this thread, many former KKW instructors have made the decision to go their own way as they felt it was better for their students. They cannot be blamed for this decision.
The urban legend of being a black belt is one that is exceptionally skilled. One that is a 'master' so-to-speak, perhaps not in title but one that knows the system. One that has trained hard above and beyond the norm. But perhaps it is a legend with a basis in fact. Perhaps the term black belt has been so dumb downed, so stripped of meaning that today a 6 year old can take and pass the test. It has been watered down for commercial reasons. Rather than being a hard earned goal that one needs to put real effort into obtaining...it is now just another belt, another testing fee, another means to charge a fee. Yeah, I know that a black belt is just an advance student...its just a low level grade...but that is perhaps just the justification used to allow it to be commercialized. Degrees of a black belt should be just that...degrees of a a BLACK BELT!
Just my thoughts to toss on the table.
OP
OP
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I think that's been the view of non-martial artists over the years, but a lot of Taekwondoin also have started to believe this view of a black belt. I wonder if it's because each generation in certain schools have made the black belt gradings they give harder than the ones they had to perform (you kids today have it so easy, my students won't find it that easy). Then they look around at a wider standard and consider it a dumbing down or watering down. I wonder what a 1st Dan test would have looked like in Korea in the 50s...
I think maybe it's just most people are now on the same page (except for those same groups who intend on making it harder and harder to get to the mythical "kill a person with a single look" black belt) with regard to what a black belt is.
A black belt means you can do all the basics. It doesn't mean you're an expert teacher or can stand on the head of a pencil while fighting ten opponents. It's people making black belt mean something it was never supposed to that are setting the whole martial arts community up for a PR fall when we don't meet that expectation.
Taekwondo is a personal journey - one person's 4th dan level is another's 1st dan.
troubleenuf
Blue Belt
Im not sure its a matter of "standing by" and enabling. Its more a matter of never having had a say in it in the first place. If you were a non-korean black belt training in the system you never had a say in the first place.
My instructor sat down with me one day and told me that the "new" way to train was to get everyone to black belt in a year and "then start training them". He told me this was the way everyone was doing it. So basically yes, their black belts are my color belts. And yes they are still Kukkiwon. They have closed tournaments so their people never have to have to find out how bad they really are by fighting someone who trains they way they should. Its like a mini cult. Closed off from the rest of the martial arts world so that they control what their people know and who they come into contact with. Its amazing to me what they get by with.
My instructor sat down with me one day and told me that the "new" way to train was to get everyone to black belt in a year and "then start training them". He told me this was the way everyone was doing it. So basically yes, their black belts are my color belts. And yes they are still Kukkiwon. They have closed tournaments so their people never have to have to find out how bad they really are by fighting someone who trains they way they should. Its like a mini cult. Closed off from the rest of the martial arts world so that they control what their people know and who they come into contact with. Its amazing to me what they get by with.
I think it is important to maintain relationships within the martial arts, especially one like Taekwondo, which really requires the cooperation of many different groups and many different practitioners. In fact, I have to come the realization that relationships just might be the most important thing in Taekwondo. All of the troubles and challenges that Taekwondo is facing nationally and globally can be traced to a break down in respect, and in relationships.
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