BLACK Belt

[MountainSage]

Sorry you Canadian TKDers, I forgot to address you folks. I guess I don't see Canada as being International, but it is. Canadian and American would go to their countries respective organizations for certification and requirements for that country.

Mountian Sage

 

[A.R.K.]

My first suggestion to solve the problem is remove TKD from the Olympics; second, only US citizen can hold any office in US TKD organizations, citizens by birth or naturalization; thirdly, create a promotion organization similar to Kikkiwon for the USA. There are few individuals in the USA that have any need to be recognized on the international level for other than ego.

You've got some good ideas here that perhaps we can discuss and expand on. First off, I have a Dan in TKD [Han Moo Kwan as well as one in Hapkido [HoShinDo]. Neither are registered with the Kukkiwon, although they could be as my instructor is a registered Kukkiwon Master. And let me stop and say that no disrespect is intended towards those that are Kukkiwon certified. But after long consideration I came to the conclusion...why do I need their approval/recognition?

I'm not going to teach TKD or Hapkido in and of itself. I'm not interested in progressing up their ladder. And I don't want to donate my $ to Korea for another piece of paper that says the same thing as the one my instructor presented me with. That is merely my humble opinion on this, and again no disrespect meant towards the Kukkiwon or it's members.

And I think part of the problem is what has already been touched on...the need for a school to generate $$$ to be able to remain open. Could I humbly suggest that the best training might be offered in an environment that does not require the generation of $? It would seem that in years past in places such as Okinawa that karate was passed down through families or selected groups and that what was taught was darn fine. Now that has problems of it's own of course but the concept is sound. A small group meeting wherever - church, park, beach, garage, back yard etc and simply training .

I'm all for kids learning early....but not in a day care setting. That is a business not a passion. A way to dump off the kids instead of parenting. Sorry for the soap box approach It just seems that the discipline suffers when the concern is on pretty colored belts and big test fees and sport competitions and this and that etc etc.

Anyway I'd better stop before I really get on a roll. :rofl: Take care.

:asian:

 

[Disco]

Sport TKD is a seperate art. To excell you have to be very athletic, boardering on almost a gymnist. Most of us are not blessed with that kind of talent or body. Understand, these people are the exception. That's why they can attain such lofted status, such as the Army team. Remember, TKD is an Olympic SPORT....

In a "commerical" school, you may not undergo the level of training as that of the elite above, but that is due to the fact that very very few can attain that level. If someone should have that ability, they will surely be asked to step up to an Olympic style training camp. But the TKD training that someone receives in the normal commerical school (if it's not a total MacDojo), is more than adequate. It's up to the individual to push him/her self to attain a level of greater proficiency. I like to use this annology. College graduation - Mr. A has a 4.0 in engineering. Mr.B has a 2.8 in same. When it comes to practical application, many times it's Mr. B who excells. Same can hold true for the martial arts. We have fostered the concept within the martial arts world, that only focuses on staged combat - sport, K1, etc. We have lost site of what real training is there for, self protection. You don't have to be an Olympic medalist or caged fighter to overcome the bad guy.

Now for those that feel that what/how they are training is somewhat lacking, I would suggest that you combine Hapkido / JuJitsu to your background. Some TKD schools with ties to older masters incorporate Hapkido self defense techniques. They intertwine with each other most readily.

If you question your training and abilities, that's good in one respect. You are seeking to better yourself. That's one of the things that makes life worth living. Just don't focus on the wrong aspects of athleticism. It's one thing to do a 360 jump spinning hook kick over a table. It's quite another thing to blow somebodies knee out and put an elbow upside their head, without leaving the ground.
:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

Disco, I believe you and I have had this discussion before. Honestly, a marital art cannot be a sport and a sport cannot be a martial art. The mental and training process needs to be ingrain differently for each one. This can be debated add nausium. Martial arts are about self not self defense, if you go into the martial art with such a narrow vision you will never get the full understanding and effects. It is also difficult to advance in a system that values sport over the martial art. There some random thoughts.

Mountain Sage

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin
he has had to water down his curriculum.

he doesn't have to do anything to water down his cirriculum, it was his choice. why he made the choice, that something you would have to ask him.

 

[Disco]

In all likelyhood, we probably have had this or a similar discussion.
I fully agree on the aspect of a sport not being a martial art and visa versa.

One of the viewpoints I have not commented on in the past but will now, is the ever increasing mindset that the martial arts are for self as you put it. I totally disagree and this is why. Lets go back to the very origins of the arts. Monks were trained for health and self protection. They already knew self, they were monks - spiritial. Martial arts were designed for combat. The farmers invented ways to use their tools as weapons against armed warriors. Now somewhere along the way between then and now, somebody decided to throw into the mix this idea of spiritial enlightenment etc. Perhaps some may / can aspire to that level, but to me that smacks of religion - Buddhism. If the individual should desire to traverse that road, that's their decision and their's alone. Now I'm not saying that the martial arts can't teach you alot about yourself, but almost any sport or physical activity can do that. Run football 2 a day drills, you'll really learn what your made of.

Perhaps the terminology "Martial Arts" is misleading. Arts implies a softer more esoteric value. Mabey it should read "Martial Ways" for: related to or suited for war.

I applaud you, if you have desired and found an alternate value for your training which enhances your outlook on humanity. For all my almost 40yrs within the arts, I have never found anyone that walked into my or other schools seeking spiritial enlightenment or looking to find an understanding of self. I want to learn - teach me self defense, is what they ask.
:asian:

 

[MountainSage]

Disco I must agree with you points of information, yet do not be mistaken that I am looking for spiritual enlightenment. The need for war skill have become less necessary over time. I agree that most people do come into your and other schools to learn self-defense, yet how many truely need it or do they believe or are lead to believe there is a need. I read or was told that on average a person will need to defend themselves from a true assault twice in a lifetime, that at much. On the other hand life sneak up and slaps you down daily. Why not train for everyday life not the two attacks, ie learn to breath correctly, move correctly, control the inner demon stuff. We're getting of track here and I'm driv'in the train. The issue is how to fix modern TKD not how we as individuals see martial arts training. That is opinion and what we need is concrete and doable solution. Remember Kikkiwon TKD is not recognized as a martial art by the Korean Government.

Mountian Sage

 

[A.R.K.]

This is why I prefer to call a martial 'self defense' style/system a discipline and a martial 'sport' style/system an art.

:asian:

 

[Disco]

Training for everyday life as you pointed out is very valid and indeed needed. All the aspects you pointed out are all very desireous. As far as someone being attacked on the average of twice in their lifetime, I have reservations. Statistics are/can be misleading. People who live in not so rural areas are subject to more hostile enviroments.

As for fixing TKD. I'm affraid that there is no fix available. With it's admission to the olympics, it has become big business. Greed has successfully reared it's ugly head. The commerical school owners, especially the Korean's will not submitt to having their income reduced.

As for having an American Kukkiwon, we already have one. The AAU has their own TKD branch and issue's rank certifications. The problem there is that they want way to much money. Right now there is a big power struggle going on between the USTU, the new USTW and the AAU. All centered around the Olympics and money. I just recently found out that my former Korean Grand Master left the USTU and went to the new USTW. I further learned that he has now become attached with the AAU. That unto itself tells me that something very big and political is coming down the pike. But reguardless of who has control of America's TKD, I fear nothing will change except were you get your next promotion from.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and comments......:asian:

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by tarabos
he doesn't have to do anything to water down his cirriculum, it was his choice. why he made the choice, that something you would have to ask him.

You are correct, my SBN didn't have to water down his curriculum at all. However, remember what has been posted around this site many times over, the majority of people don't have the Nads or can stomach really hardcore intense MA training.

If the SBN were to teach our Art the way he was trained, I'd venture to guess that he'd lose the majority of his students and income. At my dojang there are just a few hardcore practitioners who I believe would be able to hack the more difficult and intense, all out balls to the wall self-defense combat TKD training.

I agree with A.R.K. in that ideally, one of the best ways to learn the proper concepts and techniques, especially here, is in a small selected group meeting in a garage, backyard, park, church rec room, etc., etc., without having to worry about paying large overhead fees. IMHO you're better off if you're in a situation where you're training with only those practitioners who want to be there and want to learn the more effective style of our Art.

I better shut this down before I go on a longer rant...

 

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Disco

It's one thing to do a 360 jump spinning hook kick over a table. It's quite another thing to blow somebodies knee out and put an elbow upside their head, without leaving the ground.
:asian:

Yup, and if I were unforntunate enough to become involved in a street scrap, one of the last kicks I'd think about performing would be any type of 360. #1 I'm too damn slow, and #2 I wouldn't want to leave the ground because that makes slow guys like me much more vulnerable to get blasted...

You do what works best to save your *** in those types of situations... :asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

In response to the original post: Do not be fooled into thinking that because someone was born and raised in Korea, and practiced Tae Kwon Do there, he was any good or has legitimate credentials. It all depends on what kind of school and Instructors he had access to. A Korean-born Instructor who practiced at a neighborhood dojang in Korea and entered a few low-level tournaments before coming to America is going to be a crappy Instructor over here.
I was lucky. Our GM trained at the Chung Do Kwan headquarters in Korea under the CDK Head, and part of the elite University-Korean Army team. Our prtactice was hardcore but WTF. Unfortunately, most people will not have access to this type of training. Even he said 95% of Tae Kwon Do in Korea and America is junk, especially around military bases (in Korea).
I don't really know what to say to you. My advice is just keep practicing and maybe look for a different school until you find one you feel comfortable with.