Youngest Kukkiwon "black belt" at age 6 in the news

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have to agree with this, and I know people who will say that Im saying that because Im 'anti kukkiwon' (which Im certainly not, Ive seen some great kukkiwon tkdists), but I hear more and more negative things about the kukkiwon all the time. I can understand people emersed in the kukkiwon system defending it because they are so engrained in the whole thing, but from an outsider looking in, I just dont hear a lot of positives other than the fact that your rank is 'transferable', but if you dont know the kukkiwon curriculum (such is my case), then I dont really see what it offers.

Pretty much the same benefit as rank in any organization. I'm not actually defending the Kukkiwon; simply stating facts. If people are going to rant about the KKW in an online typed format, then they should be accurate in what they are ranting about. If you want to debate the merits of the forms or of the content of the curriculum that is a different story, but that isn't what people are doing. They are leveling criticism and supporting their criticism with what amounts to straw man arguments.

I have the option of getting a kukkiwon certification through my GM but have never really seen the point.

If you don't know the Kukkiwon curriculum, then why do you have the option? And who's curriculum is it? Just curious.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Pretty much the same benefit as rank in any organization. I'm not actually defending the Kukkiwon; simply stating facts. If people are going to rant about the KKW in an online typed format, then they should be accurate in what they are ranting about. If you want to debate the merits of the forms or of the content of the curriculum that is a different story, but that isn't what people are doing. They are leveling criticism and supporting their criticism with what amounts to straw man arguments.


If you don't know the Kukkiwon curriculum, then why do you have the option? And who's curriculum is it? Just curious.

Daniel

We once were kukkiwon, 15-20 years ago (I think, well before I started). Long story short, we are a club stuck in the 'dark ages', basically our GM teaches everything identically to the way he did in the late 60's- early 70's. All I know is that when I watch kukkiwon clubs in my area do a demo it is very different looking to what we do, shorter stances, less punching in sparring, different forms etc. Im always hearing that kukkiwon tkd continues to evolve (which is not necessarilly a bad thing), so I imagine we are doing kukkiwon tkd from 30 or 40 years ago. My GM has decent rank in kukkiwon and his instructors who've been with him for 30 years have a couple of kukkiwon certs from their early days. I asked my instructor (7th dan 32 years training) what the difference between taegeks and palgwes are and he replied "what is a taegek form?". So technically we teach kukkiwon stuff to a degree and have the ability to promote students with kukkiwon certification, but realistically we are really out of the loop so to speak.

 

[mastercole]

Okay Puunui, let's have an open diologue with each other. To begin with, I'm not angry, bitter or resentful towards you. I am frustrated with you and I'll explain why. It seems that in the majority of the threads I've authored, or posts that I've made in response to another’s thread you appear right after with some type of negative reply. My perception is that if I say 'white' you’re determined to say 'black'. I have to date, reached out three separate times to formulate a peace between us. Twice on the open board and once to your email. You never responded via email and the one time on the board you did half-respond was less than favorable. The combination of this and ping-ponging back and forth with you over mostly trivial details gets tiresome.

However...

If this is your way of reaching out a hand in peace and friendship then you'll find an open hand in return. You are entitled to your opinion. But the reverse is equally true; I'm entitled to my opinion. And our respective opinions are based upon our individual experiences. I'm not out to make an enemy and I'm not out to disrespect anyone. But I'm not out to be disrespected either.

You seem to be very knowledgeable on Korean history. That's fine. You also seem to hold the KKW in high regard and perhaps have had a good experience with them. I'm happy that you have. Not everyone unfortunately can say the same. And to be fair, it is not the KKW in-and-of-itself but some....and I repeat some that operate high within its ranks. My instructor is GM Dunn. He is former NYPD and I have the utmost respect for him, his training and his teaching ability. And yes, we have that 'cop-bond' between us.

He was very loyal to his Korean GM who brought him up to 3rd Dan KKW with the proper TIG for each grade. The full details of the story is not mine to tell, suffice it to say that when the Korean GM's brings in a Korean buddy who is a blue belt and instructs you to bring him up to speed on all the forms and then within the year is sitting at the masters table as a 4th Dan...well it strains the relationship. Oh, this Korean gentleman was only 1st Dan KKW, but in the HMK chain of command he was a 4th Dan. So GM Dunn was ranked from 4th (KKW), to 5th,6th and 7th (non-KKW) by GM Andrew Davies who is 7th KKW (and I believe is the highest ranked KKW in GB, or at least one of the very highest). GM Davies has his 8th directly from GM Kim, Bok Man. GM Dunn did not bother with having the 5th and up KKW as he was satisfied with GM Davies and his organization. GM Dunn's 8th came from the five original school owners that formed the IKSDA. He didn't want it (and still doesn't) but we asked him to assume this rank since the IKSDA was partly his brain child and as our senior in the arts and in years we felt it appropriate. Call it a peer reviewed promotion. Call it an organizational appointment. But we wanted one central ranking authority and since he's been in the arts overall since the mid-60's, he was our choice. And in full disclosure, we all wanted him to take a 9th in our organization. He wouldn't do it.


Under him I am officially a 6th Dan as of last year. This does not count my prior MA training before GM Dunn. He 'requested' that I continue to be exactly one grade below him since I will be the successor and he didn't want me jumping rank if something unexpected happened to him. I can see this as I've personally seen systems fall apart when the inheritor shoots up unexpectedly upon the passing of a founder. It happened in Uechi Ryu in the early 90's when Kammei Uechi (Kanei's son and Kanbun's grandson) took the reigns. He went from a much lower Dan to 10th in one shot. The result; Uechi Ryu broke into at least 16 different factions because of egos. I said fine as it was important to begin establishing a hierarchy. It wasn't about the rank. I have not physically worn a belt since 2005. Most of my students don't even know what rank I carry in the IKSDA. So I can be accepted and respected as a 7th Dan or not, at the individuals discretion. What matters to me is what I can do and what I can teach. And on that point I stand firm and I'll willingly go on deck with anyone that wants to see what I'm about. That isn't an internet challange and should not be taken as such. That is me saying judge me on what I do and teach and not what I wear.

So there it is and that's the deal.

Wow I looking around and found this! How does that work, you guys all meet at wing stop or Burger King and decide what DAN everyone is going to be? And when you do decide, does it actually make a difference

 

[puunui]

Not sure why anyone would think this. The Kukkiwon does not take your money directly and the amount that they ask for registration is comparatively negligible. It is instructors and school owners who are taking money from students.

There you go. You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The instructors and school owners who are taking money from students are the ones saying that you do not need Kukkiwon certification, that my own kinkos printed certificate is more "valuable" because I know you my student and therefore I can grade you, that you don't need some expensive certificate from Korea signed by someone you do not know. The people that I know who do not give out Kukkiwon certification to their students do so for mainly three reasons, money, control or inability. Money, because they want to keep the entire promotion fee, control because they do not want their students having Kukkiwon certification and being able to go to another school, or inability to issue Kukkiwon certification because they don't have it. However, often times these instructors are out there busy trying hard to make sure they have their own Kukkiwon certification. That really is the bottom line, money, control and ability issues, irrespective of how they want to blame the Kukkiwon for whatever.

The fact of the matter is that the Kukkiwon is certifying more people today than ever in the US and other countries. We are up to 7 million Kukkiwon poom and dan holders. Just a couple few of years ago it was 5 million. I have the exact numbers somewhere.

If people want to protest and treasure their dojang certificate then that is fine. If people want to criticize, complain and voice their negative "opinion" of the Kukkiwon, they are certainly able to do that as well. Go stand on the top of the mountain and scream if that makes them feel better about the evil nasty good for nothing Kukkiwon.

But I sincerely hope that they don't wake up one day with their faded dojang certificates and realize that they got left behind, bitter and angry that they could have and should have gotten Kukkiwon certification and did not. I know too many terrible tales of woe like that to count. USTC was created in part to try and help people in this boat, but there are so many sad stories out there....

I told this story before but it is worth repeating. There was a gentleman that I met on a trip to Korea once. There were a lot of distinguished people who were part of the tour and also this gentleman who was a very nice likeable person. He was a 40 year practitioner who had a Kukkiwon 2nd Dan but a dojang 7th Dan. We visited all over the place, Kukkiwon, WTF and got all these beautiful certificates whereever we went. You could see it on this person's face how disappointed and disillusioned he was feeling, visiting all these places that were only a picture on a webpage for him previously, meeting those that actually worked at the Kukkiwon and realizing that the Kukkiwon was not an evil place, that it was made up of sincere and very nice people who only wanted to help Taekwondoin understand and grow. You could see it on his face that he felt his dojang 7th Dan, really didn't amount to much, that he could have and should have gotten Kukkiwon certification when he had the opportunity but didn't, that he only had himself to blame for his situation. It took a trip to Korea for him to realize that all his preconceptions were really misconceptions, that he was thinking negative thoughts all these years, for nothing, that the Kukkiwon was there to help him, not hurt him.

Now when I see the seeds of that same story being planted today, I try to help, but what can you do if someone doesn't want help? I guess everyone has to follow their own path, no matter how potentially self destructive it can be, even if they cannot see it at the moment.

But everyday, I care less and less about people like that. Soon I think I won't care at all. After seven and a half years of living in the dark times, a lot of my seniors and friends are thinking this way. Why should we care about other people, especially the disrespectful juniors? And who says we have to be the ones who save the world? After all, we are doing pretty good for ourselves, in a terrible economy that doesn't look like it will ever turn around. That's the main thing, right? Maybe we should just go with the flow and the times and think about ourselves, like so many of our juniors do.

 

[Twin Fist]

The people that I know who do not give out Kukkiwon certification to their students do so for mainly three reasons, money, control or inability. Money, because they want to keep the entire promotion fee, control because they do not want their students having Kukkiwon certification and being able to go to another school, or inability to issue Kukkiwon certification because they don't have it.

you forgot the big one

cuz the kookiejuan is a worthless, waste of time and space that means NOTHING and gives the student NOTHING that they need UNLESS they are interested in competing.


IF they want to compete in Korean Kickboxing, then it MIGHT come in handy

otherwise? waste of space

ANY student can go to any other school, if you are good, your rank gets recognized and accepted, if you suck, it doesnt matter what piece of paper you have, you suck.

 

[andyjeffries]

the kookiejuan is...

Do you think this is being funny? Kukkiwon is a Korean word and making a play on words with it just makes the person look like they're trying to be funny and missing the mark.

It would be similar to saying "you teakwood practitioners...", it's so dreary and unoriginal.

If you have constructive comments to make, I'll happily join in the debate but I literally switch off when someone acts so disrespectfully.

 

[Twin Fist]

yes, i think it is hilarious, cuz the whole idea is friggin kookie as hell.

and the KKW doesnt deserve any respect if they are ok with a SIX YEAR OLD getting a BB

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Actually I have seen just the opposite. More and more people are seeing the Kukkiwon as just an entity that will take your money and send you a piece of paper with nothing behind it. The treasure chest once found is empty so to speak. There is nothing in that piece of paper that will make you better.

Originally Posted by ralphmcpherson
I have to agree with this, and I know people who will say that Im saying that because Im 'anti kukkiwon' (which Im certainly not, Ive seen some great kukkiwon tkdists), but I hear more and more negative things about the kukkiwon all the time. I can understand people emersed in the kukkiwon system defending it because they are so engrained in the whole thing, but from an outsider looking in, I just dont hear a lot of positives other than the fact that your rank is 'transferable', but if you dont know the kukkiwon curriculum (such is my case), then I dont really see what it offers. I have the option of getting a kukkiwon certification through my GM but have never really seen the point.

To begin with, yes there are many people who have spent hundreds and even thousands of dollars for pieces of paper from Korea. They have invested themselves in the KKW. It is their identity and it is a challenge when people say they don't need or want it. They take it personally, which is rather odd. And they will rail against anyone who dares to say so as they feel it diminishes who they are. They are so swallowed up with trying to be Asian that they will turn a blind eye towards unethical business practices i.e. back door and airport promotions as has been seen in this thread. They accept the, 'don't question me' from their Korean GM overlords. The click their heels and bow to the ground before them since that is where their next promotion is coming from. Personally, that sickens me and speaks of very shallow or non-existent integrity.

A KKW certificate is a piece of paper, written partly in a language most don't read and issued by a body that very probably has never actually seen you train or test. They don't know you from Adam but as long as your check clears your qualified. It has no value. The value is in what the person knows and what they can do. If someone desperately needs to spend the money for perceived recognition then more power to them. Why do you think the KKW certs have a sliding scale in expense? Is it a better piece of paper at 2nd Dan? Or is it that they've got you sucked in and can charge just a wee bit more for paper? You decide. You personal instructor's signature on the back of a dinner napkin is worth far more than a foreign bodies piece of paper because he actually knows you and knows your training.

And of course you can't forget that these same people that whine and cry that the KKW is so wonderful are probably the same people that charge a fee on top of the fee for the piece of paper from Korea that you don't really need. So of course their going to be pissed off that someone dare challenge the necessity of a KKW cert. It might take money out of their pockets. And these are the same folks by-and-large that have no problem promoting little children of 6 years old AND EVEN YOUNGER by their own words. They try to make it sound like no big deal. They try to put a philosophical spin on it. They try to legitimize it in anyway possible. The truth is that they've sold out to commercialism rather than stringent standards.

They will try to fall back on, 'well we now have 7 million yada yada'. Well a fool and their money are soon parted. Anyone remember 'pet rocks'. Lot of people had those as well and the funny thing is there worth about the same i.e. a rock and a piece of paper.

There are some great MA'ists here that get it and fully understand it makes no difference what belt you wear or where your cert comes from. They have high standards for themselves and their students. They have morals and integrity. There are also some flagrant sell-outs here that are afraid to speak out on racial discrimination, airport promotions and freely admit they'll promote anyone, of any age as long as the check clears. They seem to go hand-in-hand with the KKW and those high up in that organization. So as someone said recently, you're known by the company you keep. Those people disgust me.

Okay, the sell-outs can now come in and cut-n-paste my post and offer sarcastic remarks.

 

[andyjeffries]

To begin with, yes there are many people who have spent hundreds and even thousands of dollars for pieces of paper from Korea. They have invested themselves in the KKW. It is their identity and it is a challenge when people say they don't need or want it. They take it personally, which is rather odd.

I don't take it personally. If you don't want or need KKW certification, that's your call. I recognise that the KKW hasn't seen me train and I'm happy that my Grandmaster assessed me and decided I'm worth the rank I hold. The Kukkiwon certificate just means if I go to another Kukkiwon club, I'm a closer part of the family than if I had a kwan/dojang rank.

They accept the, 'don't question me' from their Korean GM overlords. The click their heels and bow to the ground before them since that is where their next promotion is coming from. Personally, that sickens me and speaks of very shallow or non-existent integrity.

Remembering you're doing a Korean martial art; then to a certain extent Korean values/behaviour comes in to it. Koreans live in a very heirarchical society. I may ask questions of my Grandmaster (who isn't Korean, but is asian) but not in a "what the hell are you doing" type of way, but in a respectful kind of way. I also speak the same way to my non-asian seniors, so this isn't an attitude towards Koreans.

It also has nothing to do with where my next promotion's coming from (as that's a while away).

It has to do with respect and courtesy.

A KKW certificate is a piece of paper, written partly in a language most don't read and issued by a body that very probably has never actually seen you train or test.

I agree

They don't know you from Adam but as long as your check clears your qualified.

The Kukkiwon operates a Hieararchy of Trust. They don't know me (aside from a few emails and an entry in a database). But they know my Grandmaster and his Grandmaster. There is a chain that they trust people from the top down to act correctly. They aren't certifying that they've seen me, they're certify that somewhere in the chain between me and the top guy there is someone they've seen and they're happy for them to promote others.

I see it as the Kukkiwon doesn't promote people, the instructors do that. The Kukkiwon certifies people that instructors have already promoted. This may not be quite correct (as I think the Kukkiwon forms are recommendation for promotion) but it's a helpful model for my view.

I was going to reply to the rest, but to be honest I'm a bit busy.

The Kukkiwon isn't evil, it's an educational facility that issues certificates. Do you need it, no. Should you complain if others want it, hell no. Should you issue blanket statements, offensive to a large group of those people just because you think differently. I'll leave the answer as an exercise for the reader...

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Remembering you're doing a Korean martial art; then to a certain extent Korean values/behaviour comes in to it.

Is immoral and/or unethical behavior part of the Korean value/behavior system. And to be clear, I'm not saying all Koreans act this way and I've made that clear before. But some do...don't they. That isn't a question, that is a fact so let's be honest about it. And yep, non-Koreans have followed suit which is obvious from comments in this very thread. And since, as you've pointed out, this is a Korean system...I wonder who the non-Koreans learned it from...

The Kukkiwon operates a Hieararchy of Trust. They don't know me (aside from a few emails and an entry in a database). But they know my Grandmaster and his Grandmaster. There is a chain that they trust people from the top down to act correctly.

Interesting. Does this mean the people at the top should be acting correctly as well so that it flows down the chain-of-command? Gosh, has there ever been anything 'incorrect' at the top of the KKW? Anyone splitting with some cash? Going to prison? Mass resignations? Lots of politics? I think that is a legitimate question.

The Kukkiwon isn't evil, it's an educational facility that issues certificates. Do you need it, no.

Correct.

Should you complain if others want it, hell no. Should you issue blanket statements, offensive to a large group of those people just because you think differently. I'll leave the answer as an exercise for the reader...

Blanket statement or legitimate questions and concerns? Let the reader decide for themselves. And let's be very clear. If there is an honest KKW instructor here (and I'm sure we have a bunch of them) that hasn't sold out to commercialism and unethical behavior then I'm not talking to you. Rock on and keep on keeping on. But if I'm chapping the hide of those that turn a blind eye to unethical behavior and then try to justify it with long, flowing arrogant posts...then saddle up and get some vasaline.

Oh, I know I'm opening up myself to their wrath and scorn. I know they'll pick my posts apart. That's what they do. They'll look at my website and see if they can sniff something out to throw on me. Go for it. I went from 6th to 7th in ONE YEAR. Jump all over it. Oh and 'master' Cole we actually met at a Carvel Ice Cream shop.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I'm not questioning anything you do because I don't know a thing about Kong Soo Do aside from it appears to be modified TKD. I also don't care what Dan rank you hold in KSD, and you certainly don't care what I think of your Dan rank in KSD being that you are the first I've heard of it.

Once again, the Kukkiwon does not babysit instructors. To expect them to do so is asinine. The certificate and the belt hold a responsibility as an instructor and some people will not take it seriously. Not my fault, not my problem. My skills and my students speak for me, not preconceptions based on my certificate being KKW.

Interesting dynamic, actually. We as KKW TKDin get looked down on by outsiders/smaller orgs these days. Not too long ago, it was the other way around.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Interesting dynamic, actually. We as KKW TKDin get looked down on by outsiders/smaller orgs these days. Not too long ago, it was the other way around.

Now that is an excellent comment! A some point, a KKW cert DID hold a LOT of value for a LOT of people. At some point it was held as a standard in the MA community. So what changed? Why have Korean GM's left the KKW? Why have non-Korean GM's followed suit? Is it because of inappropriate conduct at the top and within the organization? Again, let the reader decide for themselves.

And AGAIN, if you want to belong to the KKW and promote it to your students and have high standards and wish to do your part to make the KKW better then thumbs up. I'm against those turning a blind eye to unethical behavior and portraying the KKW as something it isn't. Don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's rain. I don't think a man should go from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year with little more than a year and a half total in TKD just because he's Korean and buddies with the Korean GM. That's just me. And before someone says that has nothing to do with the KKW..yes it does. The Korean GM is an 8th Dan in the KKW and held a position in it at the time. He used that to accelerate this individual both within the Kwan and the KKW. And it is a slap in the face of you folks that have busted your butts to do it the right way. And those that know first-hand of such conduct and turn a blind eye...well I'll just leave it there. I've already made my feelings clear. As have a number of people in this thread.

Let the reader decide for themselves.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If people want to protest and treasure their dojang certificate then that is fine. If people want to criticize, complain and voice their negative "opinion" of the Kukkiwon, they are certainly able to do that as well. Go stand on the top of the mountain and scream if that makes them feel better about the evil nasty good for nothing Kukkiwon.

What I don't understand is why they feel the need to protest at all. I have dojang certs that I treasure for personal reasons. They are not better than an organizational certificate, and for those who have organizational certificates, I am am happy for them.

Why should I rant against the Korean Kumdo Association, the World Haedong Gumdo Association, or the International Hankumdo Federation? I like what I do and how our program is set up; good fit for me. If the others are not my cup of tea or if I simply am not involved with them for whatever reason, then I simply will do what I do and be happy for those for whom those orgs are a good fit.

The fact is that sometimes, people need to break off, go independent, or whatever term they choose to use. For those who feel led in a different direction, be happy in your new direction. But also, they should respect that not everyone feels led in a different direction.

When I shifted my focus from taekwondo to kumdo and hapkido, I did not feel that those who continue to focus on taekwondo are somehow missing the boat, being took, or choosing a lesser path.

I'm happy in my chosen direction. I am happy for you in your chosen direction. And I am happy for Kong Soo Do in his chosen direction.

Daniel

 

[TaekwondoDad]

Oh and 'master' Cole we actually met at a Carvel Ice Cream shop.

Getting a bit personal? I don't think anyone who has met, knows or knows of Master Cole would ever see a reason for master to be in quotes.

There really seems to be a lack of courtesy and respect coming from one side of the argument. I had thought courtesy and respect were integral parts of TKD, but it seems there are those who consider respect to be "kowtowing to Korean overlords" and just to prove they aren't racist decide to demean everyone else they disagree with while they are at it.

From an outsider's point of view, it seems everything comes down to lineage and both sides are arguing for it and against it. When explaining why they don't need/want the Kukkiwon, people seem to explain how their master or instructor got his rank and why it is valid and the validity this bestows on their own rank. Despite the protestations of being judged on ability rather than a piece of paper, etc., the comments about how one's instructor/master received his rank and the value of an instructor's signature on the back of a napkin all lead to lineage. Does the Kukkiwon not serve as a vital resource for those who use it in as that it confirms lineage? If the need ever came to change dojangs/instructors for my daughter, going to another Kukkiwon school would confirm, at the least, the instructor's Dan ranking and that such ranking was bestowed by another Master registered with the Kukkiwon who earned his rank accordingly?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Getting a bit personal?

Responding in the same manner as he posted to me. So are you suggesting he was getting a bit personal first?

There really seems to be a lack of courtesy and respect coming from one side of the argument

Really? Just one side? Perhaps you need to take off your blinders sir. Or are you completely unbiased in this discussion?

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep this conversation civil. If you do not like what someone has to say, then you can use the "ignore this poster" feature that's part of the vBulletin software.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator

 

[TaekwondoDad]

Responding in the same manner as he posted to me. So are you suggesting he was getting a bit personal first?

Really? Just one side? Perhaps you need to take off your blinders sir. Or are you completely unbiased in this discussion?

I will cede the above are valid points and thank you for your courteous reply.

If I may ask you two questions:

1) are you questioning the validity of Master Cole's rank?

2) Do you deny the Kukkiwon's validity/usefulness in confirming lineage? I am not saying that every master who has a Kukkiwon certificate is above reproach. I don't think this can be said about any organization. Several people seem to agree in other threads that there is a significant amount of fraud among people who open TKD schools. It would seem having a way to verify that someone has the rank they claim and that it was vouched for by someone else who is also verified goes a long way to preventing fraudulent resumes.

 

[Archtkd]

and wish to do your part to make the KKW better then thumbs up. I'm against those turning a blind eye to unethical behavior and portraying the KKW as something it isn't. Don't pee on my leg and then tell me it's rain. I don't think a man should go from blue belt to 4th Dan in a year with little more than a year and a half total in TKD just because he's Korean and buddies with the Korean GM. That's just me. And before someone says that has nothing to do with the KKW..yes it does. The Korean GM is an 8th Dan in the KKW and held a position in it at the time. He used that to accelerate this individual both within the Kwan and the KKW. And it is a slap in the face of you folks that have busted your butts to do it the right way. And those that know first-hand of such conduct and turn a blind eye...well I'll just leave it there. I've already made my feelings clear. As have a number of people in this thread.

Let the reader decide for themselves.

I think many of us here would agree that the stuff you describe above is very wrong and shouldn't happen. But we can also opine that it's not right to use the sad incident, and maybe many others like it, to conclude and declare that the entire Kukkiwon board, its dedicated teachers, leaders and its certificates are useless. Somewhere in this discussion we have to put things into better perspective by considering the Kukkiwon's reach and area of influece. How many of us here can say they can totally manage the external affairs of a 30-member dojang in their small town, leave alone the affairs of a martial art and sport pursued by millions of people worldwide?


On a more pleasant note, we should agree that the 6 -year old Kukkiwon poom belt holder is Awesome!!!

The little boy has done more for Taekwondo than many of us adults who claim to have "real" blackbelts earned in brutal tests, but have really done nothing significant for the martial art and humanity with those belts. As of the last count, this thread, which is only six days old, had 2,443 views and 172 replies. The discussions, by many knowleadgable adults, have been good, passionate, loud, abrrasve and stupid at times, but in the end they've created lots of publicity for Taekwondo.

While many of us have written bitterly about the percieved demerits of teaching Kukkiwon Taekwondo to young children and recognizing their efforts toward that end, the discussion also has informed others that there are places and opportunity for kids to learn and earn recognition for their efforts.

My son Benjie, for one, is inspired by the story of the six-year old boy. Benjie, despite my inhibitions and reluctance to start him too early, began hanging out at our dojang -- which does not accepts kids younger than seven -- when he was 4 1/2. The bulk of our students are actually adults.

I let Benjie begin training when he was five because he started working out alone at the reception desk area, by copying what the other kids where doing on the training floor. He initially trained once a week, then twice and now shows up three times weekly. He is now 6 1/2, a purble belt (4th Geup), who should be ready for his 1st poom belt testing in 2 years. He is fluid with basic stuff for his rank, forms -- Chon Ji through Yuk Jang --, can break 1/2 inch pine with multiple hand and kicking techniques, and can spar pretty well. His one-step self defense and grab self defense tehniques are still shaky. He, like the other kids 7-10 -- will not be required to do weapons self defense in tests, although he is learning some of the stuff by observing adults and begging some of them to teach him.

Overall, Taekwondo seems to be helping Benjie to become very fit in mind and body, focus at school and become a well disciplined big brother at home. He also is developing good management and people skills. I don't see how that's a bad thing especially when we consider how so many children in this country face ignorance, mental illness, obesity, and tons of other societal problems.

 

[puunui]

Why should I rant against the Korean Kumdo Association, the World Haedong Gumdo Association, or the International Hankumdo Federation?

Is your kumdo based on Hankumdo? I know that your background is in IHF Hapkido, but not made the possible connection to Hankumdo until now.

 

[puunui]

Is immoral and/or unethical behavior part of the Korean value/behavior system. And to be clear, I'm not saying all Koreans act this way and I've made that clear before. But some do...don't they. That isn't a question, that is a fact so let's be honest about it. And yep, non-Koreans have followed suit which is obvious from comments in this very thread. And since, as you've pointed out, this is a Korean system...I wonder who the non-Koreans learned it from...

I went from 6th to 7th in ONE YEAR.

Why is it unethical to go from blue belt to 4th Dan in one year but not unethical to go from 6th to 7th Dan in one year? If you look at the Kukkiwon time in grade requirements, it would take six years to go zero to 4th Dan (if you were promoted to 1st Dan today) and it would also take six years to go from 6th to 7th Dan. Why object on ethical or moral grounds in one situation but then accept rank in another, when the time in grade requirements are exactly the same?