Yes Yes we suck.

[Dale Seago]

Im the blonde guy on the cover in the corner... Im also Ed's Uke for the Knife to the groin technique.

Ouch.

BTW, I'm finally "out there" on a video as well:

http://www.modernknives.com/issue3.htm

They do have a single-issue subscription rate, and apart from seeing me and a couple of my students doing our thing (yes, they get showcased as well) you can get an idea of what's considered to be "the state of the art" in knife combatives outside the Bujinkan.

I liked the segment we filmed and sent in, at least until I saw it. Nagato & Noguchi, who had copies of my segment already when I showed up for Daikomyosai, didn't disagree with a couple of my own "weak points" I mentioned to them, but they professed to think it was a pretty decent presentation overall.

 

[Kreth]

BTW, I'm finally "out there" on a video as well:

I knew it! Dojo in SF, the kilt, and now this... Ever been to a Turkish bath, Dale?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

I liked the segment we filmed and sent in, at least until I saw it. Nagato & Noguchi, who had copies of my segment already when I showed up for Daikomyosai, didn't disagree with a couple of my own "weak points" I mentioned to them, but they professed to think it was a pretty decent presentation overall.

Sounds cool, Dale. When is your home study course coming out? *ducks*

 

[Don Roley]

By the same token, there are always people that will tell you that if you are not doing what they are, thay you suck. They run rampant on these boards.

I think Martialtalk is one of the better boards for stopping that type of nonsense. I remember when I first got on the internet on AOL there was some moron who changed from TKD to Bujinkan and just had to go over to the TKD section and tell them that they sucked. Everybody from both sections wanted to find out who he really was a strangle him. Here, he would not last long.

There are people inside a system that stand up and say that we can do better. They should be listened to. But there are people who have some sort of issues that cause them to trash anything out of there own art. I figure they are projecting their own fears onto others. I may not study another art, but I feel secure enough to not need to tear them down to build up my own self image. There are entire boards set up that do nothing but trash people that don't train the way they do. I consider them pretty sad and pitiful myself.

 

[Cryozombie]

There are people inside a system that stand up and say that we can do better. They should be listened to.

But would you agree that there is a big difference between, "We can and should do better" and "His Movement is not a Perfect clone of *insert Japanese shihan here* Therefore He shouldnt be teaching"

I think that is a HUGE difference.

 

[Kreth]

Some of the non-Japanese shihan shouldn't be teaching...

Did I say that out loud?

 

[Don Roley]

Did I say that out loud?

No, I was throwing my voice.

None of the people I respect would use the term 'perfect' in any sentence regarding their taijutsu. The best we can do is try to improve as much as we can and we are all on different levels of that journey.

But there are some people who don't even try to do what Hatsumi is teaching. Some of them don't know what things like the san shin is or learned it from videos.

There are people that take things from other arts and try to fill the holes in their taijutsu by passing it off as Bujinkan.

If they don't know something, they should try to go to someone who knows and fill that gap. Until then, they should not teach that subject.

But that does not stop a lot of people.

 

[Cryozombie]

None of the people I respect would use the term 'perfect' in any sentence regarding their taijutsu. The best we can do is try to improve as much as we can and we are all on different levels of that journey.

None of them have used the word "Clone" either, but Im fairly confident if you read a lot of stuff in this forum you will see people who, tho they didnt use that "exact language" were saying exactly that.

 

[Koinu]

The only people to worry about saying we suck are Soke and the Shihan.
If they are telling you, you suck you should, 1, feel proud that they take the time and effort to be interested enough in the fact that you do suck. 2, you should heed their advice because if you don't it would be quite silly and I am sure next time they would just smile tell you how good you are, pose for the cuddle me Elmo photo Op and not bother to tell you you suck ever again.
BTW most of us DO suck, some are willing to hear it others only like their ego stroked.

 

[beau_safken]

Hmmm....Well I looked around for these posts on why this art sucks....but couldn't find any? Am I just not really reading the fine print or just sorta confused.

 

[Connovar]

I would suggest reading the three following threads: Bujinkan Is it for me, Being Fit, and Ninjitsu and the Marines. While obviously there is disagreement you will what some of the concerns are about the bujinkan. Read it and make up your own mind. Take care.

 

[Kreth]

The you might want to check out this link and find out where most of the "concerns" come from...

 

[Connovar]

Actually Kreth, my concerns began long before I did JKD or any MMA type activities. My concern began when I had multiple instances where a Godan level or above bujinkan members was unable to counter a full force and fulll speed attack that was already predetermined and pre agreed upon.At that point the light bulb started to go on...

Since then I dont give much credit to rumor, myth etc. I require any system I practice to show that the techniques and training are effective. The closer this testing is done to real life the better. Frankly 95% of the martial arts programs I would avoid because they dont pass the test. The bujinkan happens to be one of them although IMO its one of the worst. This is to bad because really has better potential than most but its just unrealized and unmet.............

 

[beau_safken]

Ahhh this must be something in relation to not only that first UFC match where the ninjitsu guy got demolished but some other stuff.

Combat effectiveness is all down to the psychology of the end user my friend. If they want the hurt you, they will. If they don't want to hurt you, more than likely they won't. The only reason I can think that a combat system of any sorts wouldn't give you the "If I can use it on the streets" idea, is all up to you. I know some people that could use sport TKD on the streets, and I know some Silat players that couldn't think of using a knife. I don't know if maybe the people you sparred with are adept at their systems or not. Maybe they just weren't cheating enough . Little bite to get out of chokes or thumb in the eye stuff.

I'm also thinking that the reason 95% of the martial arts you refer to don't work for you is simply that. They don't work for you. If you want 100% combat effective martial arts, good luck my friend. We don't live in a war torn society here in the states, so of course we wouldn't have a need for that level of practice. Either way, I think my point is out there.

 

[MJS]

While I do not train in BBT, this very same argument takes place in every art. I see it alot in Kenpo as well. My usual reply is, if you're happy with what you're doing, if you have no interest in said art, if your happy with your current org., why worry how someone else is training.

Connovar, do you currently train in BBT? If you did at one time, and no longer do, or if you never have, regardless of what the case is, why worry about it? If you're not happy with it, that is your choice, but there certainly is no need to bash an art or someone because of a choice that they make.

Just my .02

Mike

 

[Monadnock]

I require any system I practice to show that the techniques and training are effective. The closer this testing is done to real life the better. Frankly 95% of the martial arts programs I would avoid because they dont pass the test. The bujinkan happens to be one of them although IMO its one of the worst. This is to bad because really has better potential than most but its just unrealized and unmet.............

Do you want the art to change, or the way in which it is practiced?

I wouldn't change anything I have seen kata or technique-wise. Maybe you just ran into guys who don't train they way you think you need to train.:idunno:

 

[Kreth]

Actually Kreth, my concerns began long before I did JKD or any MMA type activities. My concern began when I had multiple instances where a Godan level or above bujinkan members was unable to counter a full force and fulll speed attack that was already predetermined and pre agreed upon.At that point the light bulb started to go on...

That was your experience. I've seen high-level blackbelts in the Bujinkan (and many other systems) who would get demolished in a real situation. But I've also seen many Bujinkan practitioners with a high degree of effective skill, so I blame the student, not the system.

The bujinkan happens to be one of them although IMO its one of the worst. This is to bad because really has better potential than most but its just unrealized and unmet.............

Again, your opinion/experience. Others have had a different experience. As has been suggested before, your continual bashing of the Bujinkan is tiresome. Perhaps you'd be happier participating in another area of MT.

 

[Monadnock]

One more thing. The Bujinkan is international in size, so wide brush statements about it don't seem fitting unless you've been around the world a few times...

 

[Connovar]

Ahhh this must be something in relation to not only that first UFC match where the ninjitsu guy got demolished but some other stuff.

Combat effectiveness is all down to the psychology of the end user my friend. If they want the hurt you, they will. If they don't want to hurt you, more than likely they won't. The only reason I can think that a combat system of any sorts wouldn't give you the "If I can use it on the streets" idea, is all up to you. I know some people that could use sport TKD on the streets, and I know some Silat players that couldn't think of using a knife. I don't know if maybe the people you sparred with are adept at their systems or not. Maybe they just weren't cheating enough . Little bite to get out of chokes or thumb in the eye stuff.

I'm also thinking that the reason 95% of the martial arts you refer to don't work for you is simply that. They don't work for you. If you want 100% combat effective martial arts, good luck my friend. We don't live in a war torn society here in the states, so of course we wouldn't have a need for that level of practice. Either way, I think my point is out there.

Actually that Ninja guy actually won the match He was a substitute after the individual who had won the quarter final and semifinal match was injured and unable to continue. I believe the "ninja guy" was one of Robert Bussey's guys if I remember correctly. He didnt use any taijitsu that I could see in the match and was defeated in follow up matches.

No art or system is 100 effective. I said 95 of the systems IMO dont appropriately train people for realistic combat. That is fine as long as you dont advertise yourselves as teaching self defense. This is what gets soccor moms and others killed. Using the wrong tool for the wrong job. Training in art for just sport, exercise or hobby is perfectly fine. My only quibble is when one is talking self defense.

 

[Monadnock]

I wouldn't equate self defense to combat. But that's probably just semantics....well, maybe not.

 

[Connovar]

One more thing. The Bujinkan is international in size, so wide brush statements about it don't seem fitting unless you've been around the world a few times...

Actually I worked internationally for 8-10 years throughout Europe and Japan and have trained with bujinkan people whose home base of training is in those geographic locations. Are you saying that those in Africa or South America may be different?

Bujinkan has some good techniques as I have previously stated. A lot of the ineffective and outdated ones need to culled out or relegated to the museum IMO. Also the training needs some dramatic changes. The ranking system is way out of control with people who have only 25-30 years experience being given ranks of 15th Dan or higher which is just plain silly in my book.

However if the bujinkan wants to withdraw claims that it realisically trains people for combat or self defense then I wouldnt have any objections. Then it just an art and art is in the eyes of the beholder.