No Strength!!!! (or "Stop Sucking!!!")

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

There's a saying in the Special Operations community "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" I live by this motto. It helps me with my movement. Just do it slow, concentrating on the movement only, not the end result AT ALL yet. That will come once you have the movement.

Right there with ya, Ranger-Buddy.
(75th All the Way! Hooah!)

 

[kaizasosei]

So your correspondance is more true than I previously wanted to admit. __________________

thanks. -
i also find interesting what you say about inyo and that martialarts doesnt work if your heart is not true.

j

 

[stephen]

thanks. -
i also find interesting what you say about inyo and that martialarts doesnt work if your heart is not true.

j

This is very true, but not suprising or mystical.

After all, It's hard to get support for the war in Iraq if we're torturing prisioners in abu ghraib.

 

[Seattletcj]

After all, It's hard to get support for the war in Iraq if we're torturing prisioners in abu ghraib.

uhhhh...can we keep naive and lunatic political stuff out of it?

 

[Seattletcj]

Remember to match uke's speed.......Both uke and tori need to move at the *same* speed. And... Uke sets the speed.

This is something that has irked me for a while. I'm not attacking you personally Bigshadow.

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Two people moving at exactly the same speed...will never happen.

Two people moving at exactly the same speed will absolutely ensure more success in the dojo. You will have a much higher chance to "win", or "pull stuff off". If this is your goal, then it is an appropriate way to train.

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
Judoka and boxers with exceptional timing have it....because they practice with real timing !
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

[/rant]

 

[kaizasosei]

i think the above slowness refers to a state of mind and not just speed.

 

[stephen]

uhhhh...can we keep naive and lunatic political stuff out of it?

uhhh, you are REALLY, REALLY missing my point.

Which is okay, just please don't make assumptions.

 

[Seattletcj]

uhhh, you are REALLY, REALLY missing my point.

Which is okay, just please don't make assumptions.

So what is your point?

Sorry, but I can only go on what you actually write.

 

[Shicomm]

it's a tough job to ignore the "bad / stupid / political / ( insert your value here ) talk " but i'll have a try...

Kichigai-no-Okami ; the situation sounds very familiar... and i guess it happens to all buyu at some time...
Sometimes even the best things can 'look' so awfully worse...
I had that feel for a long time when i got to Japan for the 2nd time.
Thinking that training would be a bit easier and more accesable was a very stupid thing to do as it frustrated me more as the days of training went by...
But i kept going and try to get at least the sessions with the teachers that i felt best with.
About 3 weeks later things went a bit better ; i was still sucking like hell ( still do... ) but in some way it just didn't feel 'only bad' ...
It's hard to explain and i guess there were more things involved but what counted the most for me was the fact that i kept training , even when frustrations got really high...

So i guess that's a thing that is indeed tough ( it's like the most sour lemon ever... ) but it has to be...
Gambatte ; just keep going , how mad you get , how bad you feel , how helpless it seems...

There will always be a moment in the future when you'll look back at the past when you can say to yourself ; "it was worth the tough travel here... "

Gambatte kudasai!

 

[jks9199]

:shrug:

This is something that has irked me for a while. I'm not attacking you personally Bigshadow.

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Two people moving at exactly the same speed...will never happen.

Two people moving at exactly the same speed will absolutely ensure more success in the dojo. You will have a much higher chance to "win", or "pull stuff off". If this is your goal, then it is an appropriate way to train.

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
Judoka and boxers with exceptional timing have it....because they practice with real timing !
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

[/rant]

The two partners don't both have to move at the same speed, defining speed as rate of travel. But they do have to move at corresponding paces, or relative rates. If I move at full speed, and you move at half speed... I'm gonna get you everytime. Or, if you move at full speed, and I move at half speed -- I'm gonna "get got" everytime.

If you work with different partners, but each maintain the same ratio or proportional speed or pace, say all at half speed, each person will be moving at different absolute speeds -- but everyone will be on the same proportional scale. So, while my 1/2 speed is quick -- yours is lightning quick (because your full speed is mindbogglingly quick) -- but someone else's is S-L-O-W. Train with each person, and you'll experience each sort of relative speed.

And, gee, that's confusing. :shrug:

I think I'm agreeing with you...

 

[MrFunnieman]

:shrug:

The two partners don't both have to move at the same speed, defining speed as rate of travel. But they do have to move at corresponding paces, or relative rates. If I move at full speed, and you move at half speed... I'm gonna get you everytime. Or, if you move at full speed, and I move at half speed -- I'm gonna "get got" everytime.
And, gee, that's confusing. :shrug:

I think I'm agreeing with you...

I agree too. Moving at the speed of the uke is about sensitivity and your sense of timing. I am sure that is what Bigshadow meant when he stated that you should match the uke speed. If you are not aware of the speed of the attack your are gonna "get got" everytime. Some folks are so focused on what they are doing to the point that they are not receptive to what the uke is doing. The tori should be reading and responding to the uke.

Kichigai-no-Okami, if you are having trouble using too much strength, then take it away. Burn your arms and legs out with intense exercise before training. You will probably not be training so "hot", and you will be unable to rely on strength - it will be drained.

 

[Seattletcj]

LOL.

jks9199, I get what your saying.
Ya, I think we may agree.

:lol:

 

[Bigshadow]

I agree too. Moving at the speed of the uke is about sensitivity and your sense of timing. I am sure that is what Bigshadow meant when he stated that you should match the uke speed. If you are not aware of the speed of the attack your are gonna "get got" everytime. Some folks are so focused on what they are doing to the point that they are not receptive to what the uke is doing. The tori should be reading and responding to the uke.

Thanks, and yes, I was kind of getting at that. Speed is relative and proportionate. However, you subtly pointed out timing. This is integral to moving proportionately to uke's speed. If tori moves late, tori will have to RUSH or go faster than uke to get where they need to be. Uke will appear to be moving too fast, but it simply could be a case of tori moving LATE. If the timing is dead on, the movement will not feel rushed or exceptionally fast, even if the uke attacks fast. Unfortunately, we cannot take each bit out and work on it independently (ie, timing and speed) and both affect each other.

As for my post, it was with regards to training and learning the proper timing and technique. When uke speeds up later, it won't make much difference, unless of course the lesson wasn't fully learned.

 

[Bigshadow]

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Absolutely!

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

Absolutely! However, babies don't start off running when they are trying to move upright. They walk first. So, yes, your right to some degree, but it seems to me you advocate starting one's training at full throttle and I disagree with that. If not, I think we agree more than you initially thought.

 

[Seattletcj]

Absolutely!

Absolutely! However, babies don't start off running when they are trying to move upright. They walk first.

The OP is a shodan.
There should be some kind of foundation to work from there right?
Well, I guess it depends.

So, yes, your right to some degree, but it seems to me you advocate starting one's training at full throttle and I disagree with that. If not, I think we agree more than you initially thought.

well, I never did advocate starting someone full throttle if you read what I wrote, so yes maybe we are in more agreement then I initially thought.

Although there is still a big difference between artificial speed and timing training, and real speed and timing training.

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

It's hard to explain and i guess there were more things involved but what counted the most for me was the fact that i kept training , even when frustrations got really high...

So i guess that's a thing that is indeed tough ( it's like the most sour lemon ever... ) but it has to be...
Gambatte ; just keep going , how mad you get , how bad you feel , how helpless it seems...

There will always be a moment in the future when you'll look back at the past when you can say to yourself ; "it was worth the tough travel here... "

Shicomm,
In all of my frustration, I seemed to have overlooked/forgotten this
simple, basic truth. Seems like at times like this, it seem near impossible to see the forest for the trees unless you......(wait for it).....slow down.....get your heart right....chillllllll. Arigato gozaimasu for helping me to remember that; all of you. Nin= to endure, right? (flicking my thumb on my head)

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

thanks. -
i also find interesting what you say about inyo and that martialarts doesnt work if your heart is not true.

j

True that is, dog. Sho' nuff.

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

The OP is a shodan.

Nidan, actually. But...whatever. I see your point

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

This is something that has irked me for a while. I'm not attacking you personally Bigshadow.

In real life people move at different speeds. Some people are fast. Some people are slow. Body types, mental processing etc.

For learning a technique, sure...slow is better.
There comes a point where this training just hits the ceiling with its artificiality though. Moving at exactly the same speed ?

Two people moving at exactly the same speed...will never happen.

Two people moving at exactly the same speed will absolutely ensure more success in the dojo. You will have a much higher chance to "win", or "pull stuff off". If this is your goal, then it is an appropriate way to train.

I'm not saying full speed here. I'm just advocating looking at real timing instead.
Judoka and boxers with exceptional timing have it....because they practice with real timing !
That does not mean full speed. It means going faster or slower appropriately.

[/rant]

I have a plethora of problems with this. I think the reason is that I always look at going fast ("real time"), instead of, as Brian and the others had stated,slowing down (appropriately, thanks.) and spending more time with the technique(analysis). This is where alot of "gung ho" ninjas begin with problems (especially in kyu levels). Matching (various) speeds with (different) uke is daunting at times, but would serve (tori) better in the long run, with the differences that each uke brings to play. Good stuff.

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

Kichigai-no-Okami, if you are having trouble using too much strength, then take it away. Burn your arms and legs out with intense exercise before training. You will probably not be training so "hot", and you will be unable to rely on strength - it will be drained.

It's funny that you mention that, Funnieman. This is a practice tht I've just taken up. Reminicent of a practice at ESI (bodygaurd school). They make a student shoot and shoot and shoot. If he messes up too much, they make him drag around a truck tire attached to a rope (18-wheeler tire!) while running, have him do x-amount of "laps". Then he stops, stands on the tire (unstable platform on which to shoot), and shoots some more. Do that enough times, and comes back to shoot later, he's in the proper "zone" in which to learn (to shoot/not to shoot/shoot well !), same practice, slightly different end, though. (Or is it?) Thanx for that, brotha.