Yes Yes we suck.

[eyebeams]

Not as long as that partner knows what you're intending to do to him/her. That is an unfair advantage people have in training that pretty much never exists IRL.[/qoute] As I said, you cannot practice one technique against resistance effectively. Instead, you train a set of them.

Couldn't care less. There are Bujinkan practitioners weaker than me who could take me out without breaking a sweat.

No, what I mean is that there are BBT practitioners who can actually apply what they know in a full contact environment without needing to use "deadly" techniques. The restriction they endure in this type of training better prepares them for the legal, ethical and circumstantial vicissitudes of the use of force then exclusively practicing single techniques on compliant uke and theorizing about the serious injury that might follow.

When things start going fast, people often confuse their backyard pool with the ocean.

I encourage you to rephrase this in the form of a factual statement instead of a vague metaphor.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As I said, you cannot practice one technique against resistance effectively. Instead, you train a set of them.

And once you change the parameters under which you train that little set of your favorite techniques, everything gets blown to crap. You cannot possibly prepare yourself for every possible threat, which is why we don't focus on the particulars of techniques after a high enough level.

No, what I mean is that there are BBT practitioners who can actually apply what they know in a full contact environment without needing to use "deadly" techniques.

Yes, and your point is?

The restriction they endure in this type of training better prepares them for the legal, ethical and circumstantial vicissitudes of the use of force then exclusively practicing single techniques on compliant uke and theorizing about the serious injury that might follow.

You're forgetting the difference between fighting and self defense. By regularly participating in full contact sparring matches you're programming yourself to voluntarily be there, and by doing so your claims of self defense goes out the window. Also, while these matches may take a while, self defense situations are by definition resolved rather quickly. And by all means, do not forget what the tactics you employ are going to look like to bystanders...

I encourage you to rephrase this in the form of a factual statement instead of a vague metaphor.

Let's not forget that if our Bujinkan membership is supposed to matter in the least, we have to practice how to hurt people while adhering to the principles of this century-old Japanese martial art. Just learning to scrap can be done anywhere, and if you care less about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu than you do about sparring and fighting, I suggest you take a moment to reflect on what good training in the Bujinkan actually is to you.

This also means that before we even start pondering how the usage of sparring might be beneficial to our practice, we have to tackle the fact that the average Bujinkan member has a grasp of kihon worse than crap. If you haven't trained so long so as to have a substantial repertoire, as well as a firm foundation in kihon, you're limiting yourself to the tactics that can be employed in a sparring match, and such limitations is, at least according to my understanding, something Hatsumi encourages people to avoid. If the parameters of the altercation change, if weapons or multiple opponents come into the picture, or if you simply encounter people with different physical attributes than you're used to, the tactics you've relied on up until then may no longer be applicable.

So why do we practice kata, one might ask, if sparring matches aren't the closest thing you can get to real combat? Well, those who practice kata are in my experience more familiar with their CHOSEN limitations, than those who advocate sparring are with the limitations they're ignoring in their practice...

 

[eyebeams]

And once you change the parameters under which you train that little set of your favorite techniques, everything gets blown to crap. You cannot possibly prepare yourself for every possible threat, which is why we don't focus on the particulars of techniques after a high enough level.

Well no, everything doesn't really get "blown to crap." People who know how to fight hard under a rules set tend to actually know how to fight without a rules set, too.

Yes, and your point is?

It's that claims that sparring hard under a rules set impede developing self-defense skills are hooey.

You're forgetting the difference between fighting and self defense. By regularly participating in full contact sparring matches you're programming yourself to voluntarily be there, and by doing so your claims of self defense goes out the window.

Under this logic, by playing uke you are programming yourself to passively take a beating, aren't you? Better to apply many approaches and to actually use your brain in a crisis.

Also, while these matches may take a while, self defense situations are by definition resolved rather quickly. And by all means, do not forget what the tactics you employ are going to look like to bystanders...

Using koppojutsu to tear someone's wrist ligaments or rotator cuff doesn't look very nice either. Furthermore, you've fallen into the fallcy that adding one type of training gets rid of another. That's not the case. Adding resistant, semi-freeform opposition does not magically aliminate conventional training.

Let's not forget that if our Bujinkan membership is supposed to matter in the least, we have to practice how to hurt people while adhering to the principles of this century-old Japanese martial art. Just learning to scrap can be done anywhere, and if you care less about learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu than you do about sparring and fighting, I suggest you take a moment to reflect on what good training in the Bujinkan actually is to you.

Training can be about many things: intellectual, athletic, emotional and spiritual. But if the training is ineffective in a fight, all of those other benefits are based on fraud and self-delusion. Nothing good can come of philosophical musings based on a lie.

This also means that before we even start pondering how the usage of sparring might be beneficial to our practice, we have to tackle the fact that the average Bujinkan member has a grasp of kihon worse than crap. If you haven't trained so long so as to have a substantial repertoire, as well as a firm foundation in kihon, you're limiting yourself to the tactics that can be employed in a sparring match, and such limitations is, at least according to my understanding, something Hatsumi encourages people to avoid. If the parameters of the altercation change, if weapons or multiple opponents come into the picture, or if you simply encounter people with different physical attributes than you're used to, the tactics you've relied on up until then may no longer be applicable.

Naturally, no method can be explored in isolation. Again, you seem to think that live sparring is two guys going at it without any coaching or feedback, and that MMA style sparring is the only kind of live training possible. Neither of these is true.

So why do we practice kata, one might ask, if sparring matches aren't the closest thing you can get to real combat? Well, those who practice kata are in my experience more familiar with their CHOSEN limitations, than those who advocate sparring are with the limitations they're ignoring in their practice...

No. Kata exist to both teach the fundamentals of the technique, its relationship with other techniques and ways of moving, and to reinforce the ideal successful form of the movement. I don't believe in abandoning kata at all, but kata alone is not as effective as kata with more spontaneous, hard contact methods.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well no, everything doesn't really get "blown to crap." People who know how to fight hard under a rules set tend to actually know how to fight without a rules set, too.

That depends on the threat at hand.

It's that claims that sparring hard under a rules set impede developing self-defense skills are hooey.

It does if you want to approach an approach to totality. "You cannot fight in a pattern because a real attack may be unstructered and disorienting."

Under this logic, by playing uke you are programming yourself to passively take a beating, aren't you?

Not necessarily, for those who do it good, there is a good probability to learn more as an uke than as tori.

Better to apply many approaches and to actually use your brain in a crisis.

We actually train to use our conscious minds as little as possible,

Using koppojutsu to tear someone's wrist ligaments or rotator cuff doesn't look very nice either.

As a matter of fact, correctly used Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu has a tendency to make the exponent look like a total layman, and not a martial artist.

Furthermore, you've fallen into the fallcy that adding one type of training gets rid of another. That's not the case. Adding resistant, semi-freeform opposition does not magically aliminate conventional training.

All training is about being aware of its limitations...

Training can be about many things: intellectual, athletic, emotional and spiritual.

Indeed...sometimes when you train you learn the most about taijutsu, sometimes the most about yourself and sometimes the most about the Bujinkan.

But if the training is ineffective in a fight, all of those other benefits are based on fraud and self-delusion.

But to say whether or not something is effective or not, you have to take into account the person using it, the person(s) he's using it against and the environment in which it all takes place. A sparring match is NOT the end-all proof of what works universally.

Naturally, no method can be explored in isolation. Again, you seem to think that live sparring is two guys going at it without any coaching or feedback, and that MMA style sparring is the only kind of live training possible. Neither of these is true.

Never implied that that was the case, but one of the basic premises for learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is that if you eventually want to move quickly and correctly, you start out by going slowly and correctly. Anyone who suggests it's better to do otherwise is not only naive but also quite unfamiliar with the nature of Bujinkan training.

No. Kata exist to both teach the fundamentals of the technique, its relationship with other techniques and ways of moving, and to reinforce the ideal successful form of the movement. I don't believe in abandoning kata at all, but kata alone is not as effective as kata with more spontaneous, hard contact methods.

Kata in our case is probably more about teaching the fundamentals of Bujinkan Budo taijutsu, and again, if you don't think kata training has spontaneous elements inherent, you're unfamiliar with the nature of the practice of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Kreth]

I'm curious if either of you could tell me what your little spat about sparring/not sparring has to do with Technopunk's original post about elitists in the Bujinkan...
In other words, get back on topic.

 

[eyebeams]

I'm curious if either of you could tell me what your little spat about sparring/not sparring has to do with Technopunk's original post about elitists in the Bujinkan...

It has to do with accusations that Buj practitioners are incompetent martial artists, actually, and that folks are better off with taekwondo (to paraphrase the initial post). The main thing that unites all of the competent Bujinkan folks I've met is that they have actualy trained against dynamic resistance.

In fact, after meeting such people and witnessing their competence firsthand, it surprises me that this is such a controversial topic within this community at all that some consider it to be a slander on their art to even discuss it. That kind of insecurity certainly isn't mine or the Bujinkan's fault, is it?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

What you don't factor into the equation is whether or not what these individuals are doing actually bears resemblance to what is being taught in Japan.

 

[Cryozombie]

It has to do with accusations that Buj practitioners are incompetent martial artists, actually, and that folks are better off with taekwondo (to paraphrase the initial post).

If thats what you got out of my post, you misread or misundertood.

 

[Bigshadow]

Technopunk... I think many have already hashed out alot of things. However, the only thing I can think of to say is if people try to compare different martial arts it is like comparing a framing hammer with a sledge hammer. Both are hammers, but each type of hammer is for a different purpose. Furthermore, some hammers are more versatile than others. Just keep going.

Hang in there!

 

[eyebeams]

What you don't factor into the equation is whether or not what these individuals are doing actually bears resemblance to what is being taught in Japan.

Oh, that? You'll never know unless you're issued Menkyo anyway. Getting neurotic over who is learning the "true" Bujinkan-linage traditions is so much hot air unless you have a direct connection to somebody with a Menkyo level rather than Gendai Budo kyu-dan affectations that the soke doesn't particularly care about anyway.

This never fails to boggle my mind. The Menkyo system is the only thing that ensures an official approval of the techniques of a koryu lineage. I'd assume that as far as Dr. Hatsumi is concerned, it casts no aspersions on the Bujinkan arts whatsoever if nobody outside the Menkyo system has any idea what they're doing. X-Kan shenanigans, Toshindo versus hombu-hardliners, none of them can claim any special position without the support of someone with a real license saying that one thing is good, and another thing is bad.

 

[eyebeams]

If thats what you got out of my post, you misread or misundertood.

Asking a question does not always entitle one to the answers they would like to hear.

Here's the thing: I know competent Bujinkan martial artists. They are competent by more than the internal standards of their organization/branch/club. They are just good -- and good in a multifacetted sense, not just in terms of their koppo or koshi or weapons. What these people all have in common is previous or current experience with various kinds of free fighting. They compare favourably with practitioners of other arts.

I certainly can't help but "misunderstand" anyone who finds this simple observation threatening or insulting.

 

[Cryozombie]

I certainly can't help but "misunderstand" anyone who finds this simple observation threatening or insulting.

Haha.

Yeah.

I found you neither.

 

[eyebeams]

Haha.

Yeah.

I found you neither.

I have no doubt that you conduct yourself with extraordinary confidence.

 

[Cryozombie]

I have no doubt that you conduct yourself with extraordinary confidence.

Thank you. I appreciate the compliment.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Oh, that? You'll never know unless you're issued
Menkyo anyway.

Actually, it's very simple to tell. If you have the experience, that is.

Getting neurotic over who is learning the "true" Bujinkan-linage traditions is so much hot air unless you have a direct connection to somebody with a Menkyo level rather than Gendai Budo kyu-dan affectations that the soke doesn't particularly care about anyway.

Sure. The most obvious characteristic trait of the Japanese is their fondness of giving people straight answers.

This never fails to boggle my mind. The Menkyo system is the only thing that ensures an official approval of the techniques of a koryu lineage. I'd assume that as far as Dr. Hatsumi is concerned, it casts no aspersions on the Bujinkan arts whatsoever if nobody outside the Menkyo system has any idea what they're doing. X-Kan shenanigans, Toshindo versus hombu-hardliners, none of them can claim any special position without the support of someone with a real license saying that one thing is good, and another thing is bad.

I seriously have no idea where you're going with this.

What these people all have in common is previous or current experience with various kinds of free fighting. They compare favourably with practitioners of other arts.

I certainly can't help but "misunderstand" anyone who finds this simple observation threatening or insulting.

Well, it does speak somewhat of your ignorance regarding Bujinkan shihan. I know of several excellent practitioners who have never practiced any other martial art over a continuous period of time.
Even so, Hatsumi, Nagato and many other shihan fit into your description of these skilled people you've encountered. So why is it that they don't emphasize regular sparring practice?

 

[eyebeams]

Actually, it's very simple to tell. If you have the experience, that is.

I'd have to know what Dr. Hatsumi's inka looks like, and to be honest, I only have a very rough idea of what a densho looks like -- so I agree!

Sure. The most obvious characteristic trait of the Japanese is their fondness of giving people straight answers.

That's kind of my point, actually.

I seriously have no idea where you're going with this.

Arguments about what's authentic don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the word of a license holder.

Well, it does speak somewhat of your ignorance regarding Bujinkan shihan. I know of several excellent practitioners who have never practiced any other martial art over a continuous period of time.

It has nothing to do with cross-training. It does have to do with a certain kind of training, though.

Even so, Hatsumi, Nagato and many other shihan fit into your description of these skilled people you've encountered. So why is it that they don't emphasize regular sparring practice?

Because they've already done it and are not especially inclined to lead you by the hand to every little thing you must do to become competent.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'd have to know what Dr. Hatsumi's inka looks like, and to be honest, I only have a very rough idea of what a densho looks like -- so I agree!

You honestly don't think I was suggesting that one should look to the densho for general guidelines as to how one's taijutsu should be "like"? If so, you obviously aren't aware of the manner in which they're written...

That's kind of my point, actually.

Which means that accumulated knowledge through persistent training is the only way of coming even close to understanding.

Arguments about what's authentic don't amount to a hill of beans compared to the word of a license holder.

Well, Soke would probably not stoop to that level, but what I was getting at is that the best and most simple way to find out about someone's skill is to be their uke. Something I do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel to be on the receiving end of it. Suffice to say, I've done just that to several people whom I know practice free sparring regularly, and it doesn't compare in the least to being an uke to the Japanese shihan, or even a truly skilled westerner.

It has nothing to do with cross-training. It does have to do with a certain kind of training, though.

After how long a time period of Bujinkan training then, if I may ask?

Because they've already done it and are not especially inclined to lead you by the hand to every little thing you must do to become competent.

So it doesn't tell you anything that both of them have said repeatedly that sparring practice should be used cautiously and not too early due to the high risk it bears with it to instill bad habits?

 

[Shinkengata]

This discussion has taken a considerably productive turn. It's not often that lengthy discussions about politics and lineages hold my attention for more than a few posts.

 

[eyebeams]

You honestly don't think I was suggesting that one should look to the densho for general guidelines as to how one's taijutsu should be "like"? If so, you obviously aren't aware of the manner in which they're written...

Actually, I am aware of their usual contents. That is not my point.

But someone with traditional koryu certification is the end authority if you want to know if you're doing it "right." Their gendai budo style ranks are irrelevant.

I think that once Dr. Hatsumi passes, this is all going to get rather interesting, of course, since he's allegedly granted menkyo to people quietly, passed on kuden and done all sorts of other things that will, if anything break down people's desperation to have authority over some part of the syllabus, even if many do prefer to cloak it in one form of falsely modest, passive aggressive rhetoric or another.

Plus, of course, the curriculum, standards and the identity of the Bujinkan has changed as various political fortunes have waxed and waned and Dr. Hatsumi has exercised his perogative as soke to make adjustments whose full depth is ultimately known to nobody but himself.

And he is well within his rights to do all of these things, from arbitrary rankings to his admitted use of deception and misdirection as a form of traditional teaching. None of these are bad things.

But do they destablize people's claims of what's "good" and "authentic?" Outside of the basic consideration of whether a given method actually works, they definitely do.

Which means that accumulated knowledge through persistent training is the only way of coming even close to understanding.

Understanding the subject of the training, certainly. This is either very limited or very broad, depending on your ability to expand upon recieved knowledge.

Well, Soke would probably not stoop to that level, but what I was getting at is that the best and most simple way to find out about someone's skill is to be their uke.

It depends on the sincerity of all involved. What do you mean about "stooping?" All I'm saying is that authority is not definitively (much less exclusively) granted through the kyu/dan system.

Something I do claim to know about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is how it should feel to be on the receiving end of it. Suffice to say, I've done just that to several people whom I know practice free sparring regularly, and it doesn't compare in the least to being an uke to the Japanese shihan, or even a truly skilled westerner.

After how long a time period of Bujinkan training then, if I may ask?

It would depend on the person, the school and the training. Some people require an extended period of acclimatization to the hardships of certain kinds of sparring. Some people have the advantage of instinct, but are slow to adopt technique.

So it doesn't tell you anything that both of them have said repeatedly that sparring practice should be used cautiously and not too early due to the high risk it bears with it to instill bad habits?

Sure. The primary danger is that it becomes the sole focus and hinders the ability to decisively respond, and that there is insufficient guidance from instructors about the difference between the exercise and possible engagements. For instance, moving in and out of distance repeatedly is very common in competitive striking, but is not nearly so common in self-defense.

Even so, replying on an uke who responds as expected instills at least as many bad habits, unless you are training to look good at an embu. In fact, pretty much *every* method has flaws if it is used in isolation, and as I said to Don Roley several pages ago, that's not the way to go.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I am finding this interesting reading.
I do have one thought on what has been said but pkease don't get side tracked by my thoughts

If an approach cannot be effective under legal, ethical and situational limits on the use of force, then it is weak.

Why I thought martial arts where made for situations that can occure outside of law (war) and ubder whose idea of legal and ethical (yours mine the guy in a hut in uganda). When talking about ethics and legal things =these values differ greatly depending on many things.