Realistic Training !!

[Bujingodai]

I think there is some short thoughts here
The idea that an opinion outside of the Bujinkan is wrong due to not feeling the totality of the Kan is silly. Not everything works for everyone. I for one have seen some things in the Kan that totally disgust me from some of the most senior people.
Everyones needs are different, there may be less people with real talent where he is to learn from. He may just think the Kan sucks, thats his opinion.
Does it look like he has moved on and has adjusted his thought due to the opposite value of what seems to be MMA, yes.
Do I think that most people don't unravel the value of Ninjutsu til they have been at it a very very long time yes, do I think that you have experienced totality at a decade not too many.
I think there are way too many people that think very much of their ability way too soon. That is a very obvious point if you travel enough and see the quality of the product that is out there.

I do for one believe you need to see what you need to see. If that means going out for your views so be it.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

I think there is some short thoughts here
The idea that an opinion outside of the Bujinkan is wrong due to not feeling the totality of the Kan is silly. Not everything works for everyone. I for one have seen some things in the Kan that totally disgust me from some of the most senior people.
Everyones needs are different, there may be less people with real talent where he is to learn from. He may just think the Kan sucks, thats his opinion.
Does it look like he has moved on and has adjusted his thought due to the opposite value of what seems to be MMA, yes.
Do I think that most people don't unravel the value of Ninjutsu til they have been at it a very very long time yes, do I think that you have experienced totality at a decade not too many.
I think there are way too many people that think very much of their ability way too soon. That is a very obvious point if you travel enough and see the quality of the product that is out there.

I do for one believe you need to see what you need to see. If that means going out for your views so be it.

Thanks for that Post, Dave,
The only place I'll correct you is that I have never said the Kans suck. I asctually like my BJK training. All I say is that, in my opinion, I find randori and pressure testing and resistance work helps, and is what I consider realistic training. Period.

People seem to get defensive when I, or others, say this and then accuse me of hating the BJK.

But this is not the case.
~Nick

 

[Bujingodai]

No means to offense, anyone for that matter. I was being a bit general in my assumption. Much like everyone else does when you experience other things.
I stepped outside the boundries and had some of the best training with some of the best people I could meet.
When some questioned that I offered to pay for a seminar and put them up to witness it, unfortunatly it didn't pan out. BTW invite still open.
I will still train with some of those that the legit schools don't like. Thats my choice. I value both of those paths

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

LOL...that sounds like a comment made by someone who has stepped very little outside the realms of his own style.

You're free to believe that.

But I ask you this. Why do you suggest that?

The PC term is that you need to train with different people to find out if there are others who can offer you more than you're currently getting. The less PC term is that you need to do that in order to learn who sucks and who doesn't.

People have come on here talking about ways to train realistically.

You seem to have a problem with that.

Yes, and here's why.
At the very best, all training is a simulation of an isolated part of reality. It can *NEVER* be compared to the whole of reality itself. For me personally, realism does not compare well with two similarly trained, prepared and/or equipped persons who are determined to find out which one of them is the better fighter given the circumstances they operate under. However well I fare in a sparring match there's no guarantee that that's going to save me from the crackhead I arrested a few weeks ago, who's now come back for me with an axe and tries to ambush me on my lunch break (I'm not making this up, this is something that happened to one of my bosses a few weeks ago). But no matter what techniques you're drilling, you've always limited the scope of their application by heavily modifying the environment in which they're meant to be applied. Or as someone once put it, "there are always more 'if's' than you've planned for".

I never needed to practice randori to find out that the results of your techniques aren't the same when people are uncooperative. I learned that through regular training and interaction with the people participating therein. Nor do I need Matt Thornton, Burton Richardson, Jim Wagner or even Sean Askew to tell me that "there's a lot of brothers out there flakin' and perpetratin' but scared to kick reality". I learned that through observing the people around me.

I've never said that I don't like to spar, in fact I love it. But I don't make myself the illusion that this or that method is by definition more realistic than the other. And I strive to NEVER try to judge an opponent based on what I myself am capable of and/or prepared to do. I'm not by a long shot what anyone would call "good" at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, in the international sense of the word. I have however experienced firsthand that the training I participate in, for all its limitations, really does produce interesting methods of response. I've accepted the limitations inherent in my own training, but I try not to go around advocating their supposed realism as opposed to everything else.

So to counter all this you a) call fellow practitioners "children"

That term, when I initially used it (although admittedly not the best one to use) referred to beginners, i.e. 9th kyu-ish with only a few weeks or months worth of training.

by what you "ASSUME" to know of them,
their training and their abilities.

I think there's been some misunderstanding here.

b) You suggest that I should try other BJK instructors (but if you say that randori and pressure testing is not the norm...and it is what I enjoy...so then why would I do that?

I did make the (perhaps faulty) assumption that you were interested in learning as much about Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as possible. Personally, I don't see much of a reason to stay within the Bujinkan if sparring is your main point of interest, except in cases like yours in which you've already found a dojo you're obviously more than satisfied with. But as for me, if I wanted more sparring as opposed to better understanding of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, I would look to another style.

My opinion that randori and pressure testing is beneficial will change when I go to another sensei who just trains kata because....

I'm not saying it will change, I'm saying it might open up doors to new levels of understanding in regards to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I for one have seen some things in the Kan that totally disgust me from some of the most senior people.

Tell me about it...how about being picked apart in front of the whole group by a 15th dan during his Hombu dojo session when you've had two hours of sleep in two days and you're training with a seven foot tall psycho who isn't being cooperative at all?
Funny enough, I'm still training.

do I think that you have experienced totality at a decade not too many.

Totality is a bit of a strong word, don't you think?

 

[saru1968]

if I wanted more sparring as opposed to better understanding of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, I would look to another style.

pretty much how i see it.

What to do something different, fine leave but don't stay and complain that you have to change it..then they do sound like whinging kids..

 

[Bujingodai]

I agree with that. No sense whining.
I still do train BTW. I just chose to taste other varieties and see for myself. I believe, especially being as I have now seen him in the flesh a few feet away Hatsumi Senseis mastery, I just happen to believe that a great deal of his org has fallen away from him. I think he is letting people shoot themselves in the foot so to speak, Judans and above included.

Some of the conversations I had in Japan, or listened to from some respected people turned me right off.
Mind you I had as many positive experiences. I trained with a bunch of people that impressed the hell out of me and I would love to learn from. One guy from Sweden especially, his heart was very good. Even a no one like me could feel that. His Sakki test was second to none.

I am sorry that the 15th dan saw it to express something on you in front of the crowd, maybe that made him feel better to belittle you.

My Sensei (s)has (have) admonished me a number of times, however has always had enough honour to give me some diginity. What he did would make most walk away and you didn't. That is a testiment (sp) to you.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

At the very best, all training is a simulation of an isolated part of reality. It can *NEVER* be compared to the whole of reality itself.

Okay, so to clarify, though unscripted training is closer to a "realistic altercation" then say, merely kata, because it is not the real deal, it is better to avoid it all together?

whatever floats your boat, I guess.

On your comment that one needs to train with different people to find out if there are others who can offer more than one currently getting, yes agreed. But the only place we differ here is you use this thought in the context of the BJK only. I look at a dojo and I don't see a karate school, or a BJK school or a MMA gym. I look at an individual school and I see an instructor and what he has to offer me. I know from my own experiences 9real life and training) if what he is teaching me is rubbish, unrealistic or not.

A good example is 7 years ago while training at one BJK school, the instructor was showing a defence against bear hugs (now this interested me a lot because on two occassions while trying to break up a fight 1) I had witnessed one guy rush up, bear hug another guy and toss him backwards and onto his head, then 2) a time as I had a guy pinned to the floor, one of his friends crash tackled me in a bear hug and tossed me sideways, freeing his mate to join in.)

The defence shown, seemed to rely on the attacker not moving from the spot. Simply walking up and bear hugging you. That would be fine if that was how the instructor was conveying the situation, but he made it sound like the universal method of escaping a bear hug. I asked "how does the tech alter if the attacker continues the motion. IE: if they hug and toss/throw?"

The reply I got was "That doesn't happen"

I am not one to argue with an instructor during his class. So I just waited until after class to discuss privately. He told me that what I had seen was not a bear hug. "You were probably too caught up in the moment to have understood what was happening" he said in a tone that much like you, seemed to brush off my experience. I thanked him for his insight and went home, where I asked my brother (a martial artist of over 30 years) to attack me with a bear hug.

Now note:
*I did not ask my brother to throw me
*I did not ask my brother to toss me sideways
*I did not ask my brother to dump me

But I did ask him to attack me.
Each time he came at me from behind so suddenly and with such brutality, tossing me, dumping me, or throwing me, that every time I ended up on our matts with a throbbing shoulder, head or neck. Not once did the mighty foot stomp technique come into play

At the next time at class, I raised this with the instructor...his comment was "Your brother proabably didn't have you in just a bear hug"

And it was hear that I finished the class, went home and started looking for a new dojo.

Now, had I never been in a real fight, had never done another martial art and had never worked a door in my life, and had just visited 12 BJK schools and all taught that style defence like that (I know now they don't - I'm just trying to make you understand my POV)...I would not have known that his teaching method was crap. I would have thought I was the bomb when it came to bear hug defence.

So when someone trains only with a compliant uke that just stands there in a "mock bear hug" and never tries to throw/dump/toss...how will that student know if his "bear hug defence" actually works.


On the "illusions" of sparring. I don't know a single person that does randori/sparring and that thinks because they do it, they are invincable. In fact, people that spar tend to have a better understanding that every altercation has a different outcome and that there are no guarentees of victory. They have a far greater sense of reality, a comprehension and understanding to accept when techs fail, making it easier to move on to something else.

On leaving the BJK if you like sparring!
Why? There are quite a few people it seems in the BJK that have randori, pressure testing or resistance work or all all three. You just have to locate them.

 

[Rubber Tanto]

pretty much how i see it.

So you feel a person cannot train their taijutsu and train randori?
How so?

What to do something different, fine leave but don't stay and complain that you have to change it..then they do sound like whinging kids..

But I don't care if you change the way you train or not. You can train how you want. But I can have my opinion. Just as you have yours.

I like doing what I do. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating facts or views based on my experience with Martial arts in general.

Do you guys ever read your own posts?
Do you realise that now your argument has almost become "if you don't train the way I train then leave"

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Okay, so to clarify, though unscripted training is closer to a "realistic altercation" then say, merely kata, because it is not the real deal, it is better to avoid it all together?

Only to such an extent that it does not affect your ability to properly learn Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

But the only place we differ here is you use this thought in the context of the BJK only.

Well, what can I say? That is what I want to learn.

The defence shown, seemed to rely on the attacker not moving from the spot. Simply walking up and bear hugging you. That would be fine if that was how the instructor was conveying the situation, but he made it sound like the universal method of escaping a bear hug. I asked "how does the tech alter if the attacker continues the motion. IE: if they hug and toss/throw?"

The reply I got was "That doesn't happen"

Bad instructor, yes. But why do you allow that to prevent you from exploring the rest of the Bujinkan?

Now, had I never been in a real fight, had never done another martial art and had never worked a door in my life, and had just visited 12 BJK schools and all taught that style defence like that (I know now they don't - I'm just trying to make you understand my POV)...I would not have known that his teaching method was crap. I would have thought I was the bomb when it came to bear hug defence.

My opinion is that you're underestimating what can be learnt from spending time around various Bujinkan places. Again, I did not encounter my first uncooperative training partner whilst doing randori.

So when someone trains only with a compliant uke that just stands there in a "mock bear hug" and never tries to throw/dump/toss...

You can do that within kata training as well. Look at what I called "practicing kata in such a way that it feels like randori" in my thread on the subject.

In fact, people that spar tend to have a better understanding that every altercation has a different outcome and that there are no guarentees of victory.

In a way, that's true, but in regards to the Bujinkan that has more to do with the generally way too low quality level out there. Hence the need to look around more.

On leaving the BJK if you like sparring!
Why? There are quite a few people it seems in the BJK that have randori, pressure testing or resistance work or all all three. You just have to locate them.

Most of them have one thing in common, as have already been stated - they don't care as much about properly learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Bujingodai]

I agree with both of you.
I find that only after some time do I see why something is done, it is more programming than anything else IMO. Thus can be trained to a degree without sparring.

Hmm, but I also believe in Jissen Keiko. I believe in spontanious attacks and how you'd react to them. Sparring is too sports orientated and if the partner doesn't express their intent enough....your buddies and don't care to hurt.
However I find that if someone is on the spot attacking you, much better result as long as you have enough control to stop it.

 

[Don Roley]

The idea that an opinion outside of the Bujinkan is wrong due to not feeling the totality of the Kan is silly.

It is silly if we are talking about the way things are done in the Bujinkan.

I know folks that do side kicks to the head. I do not do that kick in the Bujinkan. There is a reason they do it and we do not. The same goes for a lot of things.

Looking at other arts has helped expand my way of looking at things. The problem is that if you do not have a base and understand why we do certain things the way we do, you will just end up like one of those Martial arts pirates.

 

[saru1968]

So you feel a person cannot train their taijutsu and train randori?
How so?

I was refering to sparring not randori.



But I don't care if you change the way you train or not. You can train how you want. But I can have my opinion. Just as you have yours.

Opinion are fine but training in a fashion different to advice from seniors at the source can't be good.

I like doing what I do. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating facts or views based on my experience with Martial arts in general.

But i'm talking about BBT...

Do you guys ever read your own posts?
Do you realise that now your argument has almost become "if you don't train the way I train then leave"

No but was the point in training different than advised, i would amend the sentence to if you can be bothered to train correctly as advised by you instructors/peers( the ones that have been before)..then yes go do something else, far too many doing their own thing. I quite like the idea of a fair system.

Putting it simply, if i advised a student not to train in a certain fashion and they disregarded my advice they can go train elsewhere. I think the shift has gone too much towards the 'recieving of the service' than the 'provider level'.

 

[Bujingodai]

I think what I meant there Don, was the notion that any opinion outside training in the Kan was wrong but I even lost my own point.

 

[Seattletcj]

OK, one more time...


strawman....train randori/sparring only
strawman....dont train in the basics
strawman....kata is useless
strawman....bujinkan is useless
strawman....sparring is reality

None of the above are being argued, so there is no reason to argue against them.

 

[saru1968]

OK, one more time...


strawman....train randori/sparring only

OK, One more time....

Sparring is NOT Randori....

Randori is not Sparring.....

Different mindsets...

:mst:

 

[Seattletcj]

OK, One more time....

Sparring is NOT Randori....

Randori is not Sparring.....

Different mindsets...

:mst:

Is this the best argument you could really come up with? LOL

Ok, strawman.... train sparring and /or randori only.

better? :drinkbeer

 

[DWeidman]

OK, One more time....

Sparring is NOT Randori....

Randori is not Sparring.....

Different mindsets...

:mst:

How can you say that? Honestly? The lines on Sparring and Randori are REDICULOUSLY fuzzy. Just because you make them black and white does not mean that the rest of the world sees it that way as well.

-DW

 

[Don Roley]

How can you say that? Honestly? The lines on Sparring and Randori are REDICULOUSLY fuzzy. Just because you make them black and white does not mean that the rest of the world sees it that way as well.

-DW

There are some points on where they are very stark and in contrast.

Sparring seems to imply that both guys are there to win a fight and are competing. Of course, it has been pointed out that this is not the way most violent situations go down. In most situations, the agressor is not there for a fight since he is there to hurt the other guy and he himself can get hurt in a fight. So he uses things like sucker punches and the other guy is not aware he is in a 'fight' until he is being stomped into the ground.

Randori merely means that things are not set. You can have one guy try attacking and the other guy just try to defend and evade. Or you can have one guy try to apply various things and the other guy just try to prevent it. Sparring seems to imply that one guy will 'win' and that mentality is the one that I think Saru is talking about. Randori, as I have done it, really is not about winning. It is about surviving and learning.

And as for Seatle's comments about strawmen, I do not think that they are strawmen for the most part. You do not have to go far to find a comment along the lines of "If you don't try the move in sparring, how do you know you can do it in real life?" Well, if you are making that type of comparison the only conclusion is that you do think that sparring is real fighting. You can even find others saying that maybe it is not real, but it is the closest you can get to real fighiting. (Which of course, having seen Quinn's stuff, I disagree with.)

 

[Rubber Tanto]

RT: So you feel a person cannot train their taijutsu and train randori?
How so?

Saru: I was refering to sparring not randori.

RT: So was I. In fact I have ALWAYS talked about randori (as have others) but you guys seem to keep trying to change that in your arguments. Very strange. I wonder why?

So once again for anyone thats joined this discussion late and can't be bothered reading 30 odd pages...

I have made my examples on MY OPINION on the difference between sparring and randori. To me, randori is a non-scripted exchange where one is a designated attacker and one designated defender. Where the attackers goal is to wear-down, and defeat the defender and the defenders goal is to maintain distance, defence to subdue and nuetrelize. To me, sparring is a non-scripted exchange where each one works to defeat the other.

RT: But I don't care if you change the way you train or not. You can train how you want. But I can have my opinion. Just as you have yours.

Saru: Opinion(s) are fine but training in a fashion different to advice from seniors at the source can't be good.

RT: Again your arguments fall down by changing the original facts. I DON'T train different. I still do my ukemi just like everyone else. I still do my kata training like everyone else. I just have an additional class where I get to try my taijustu against a full resistant oponent.

Thats like saying - we both go for a jog every morning for 6km except on saturdays I do sprinting and long jump, so then you declare that I don't jog, or at best, jog different from everyone else. Whichever way you look at it...I'm still jogging.

RT: I like doing what I do. I'm not complaining. I'm just stating facts or views based on my experience with Martial arts in general.

Saru: But i'm talking about BBT...

RT: So am I - But one cannot ignore their past experience. Like it or not, Hatsumi Sensei and most of the Japanese shihan have backgrounds in other arts (Judo, Kickboxing etc) that had alive training. No matter how they train now, there is a part of their minds that always sees the realistic application of every technique when they apply it. People always point to their current destination but neglect to point out the journey that got them there. Do many of you believe that what they learned before and the way they trained before plays no part in what type of martial artists they are today? This is not a jibe, this is a serious question.

RT: Do you guys ever read your own posts?
Do you realise that now your argument has almost become "if you don't train the way I train then leave"

Saru: No but was the point in training different than advised, i would amend the sentence to if you can be bothered to train correctly as advised by you instructors/peers( the ones that have been before)..then yes go do something else, far too many doing their own thing. I quite like the idea of a fair system.

RT: The bold area is a poor statement. You are trying to imply to those reading that members of the bujinkan who enjoy training randori (noted in bold so that you do not once again confuse it with sparring) are lazy martial artists that cannot be "bothered" to train correctly. A stupid comment if ever I heard one as adding (noted in bold so that you do not once again confuse the word with "changing") additional elements to your training is actually harder work, and in my opinion, just another example of a practitioners pursuit for martial excellence.

Saru: Putting it simply, if i advised a student not to train in a certain fashion and they disregarded my advice they can go train elsewhere.

RT: So to clarify because you have now said that adding anything to your training is CHANGING your training, if you had a student that loved his BBT, but After 3 years of study decided that he was to keep training his BBT as normal but once a week he wanted to take a BJJ class so that he can have really awesome stand up skills (BBT) and really sound ground skills (BJJ) you would ask him to leave?

Simple answer: Yes or No?