Yes Yes we suck.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

But someone with traditional koryu certification is the end authority if you want to know if you're doing it "right." Their gendai budo style ranks are irrelevant.
I think that once Dr. Hatsumi passes, this is all going to get rather interesting, of course, since he's allegedly granted menkyo to people quietly, passed on kuden and done all sorts of other things that will, if anything break down people's desperation to have authority over some part of the syllabus, even if many do prefer to cloak it in one form of falsely modest, passive aggressive rhetoric or another.

I hope this is not your way of trying to give anyone an excuse to do things however they feel like?

The fact of the matter is that it can be seen (and felt) if a person's training has involved an unusual amount of sparring, the same way you can "see" if someone is in kamae or not.

It depends on the sincerity of all involved. What do you mean about "stooping?" All I'm saying is that authority is not definitively (much less exclusively) granted through the kyu/dan system.

What I meant was that I don't think Hatsumi is going to lend himself to be uke for anyone sometime in the near future.
And I couldn't care less about dan ranks as indication of a person's skill. This is the Bujinkan after all, trying to impress people by the merits of your rank alone is kind of like bragging about the fact that you eat soup with a spoon. Like I said before, if you have experience with training with many people you eventually learn to see whomever is heading off in a different direction than what others strive for. Besides, good instructors tend to make a name for themselves and that is something that happens regardless of his or her particular style of martial art.

It would depend on the person, the school and the training. Some people require an extended period of acclimatization to the hardships of certain kinds of sparring. Some people have the advantage of instinct, but are slow to adopt technique.

Now this I do agree with.

Sure. The primary danger is that it becomes the sole focus and hinders the ability to decisively respond, and that there is insufficient guidance from instructors about the difference between the exercise and possible engagements. For instance, moving in and out of distance repeatedly is very common in competitive striking, but is not nearly so common in self-defense.

Agreed, and the easiest way to avoid this phenomenon is not to have people start sparring right away but to wait until they've been training for so long so as to have at least some control of their bodies.

Even so, replying on an uke who responds as expected instills at least as many bad habits, unless you are training to look good at an embu.

Of course, that's many times not the case even if you're simply practicing kata.

In fact, pretty much *every* method has flaws if it is used in isolation, and as I said to Don Roley several pages ago, that's not the way to go.

Agreed, it's all about choosing between limitations. And as Hock Hochheim likes to say, "you can't learn to swim for the first time in a tsunami".

 

[Don Roley]

I'm curious if either of you could tell me what your little spat about sparring/not sparring has to do with Technopunk's original post about elitists in the Bujinkan...

Shouldn't that be Japan elitists? Obviously he is talking about things I have been saying here and elsewhere.

And I am not afraid to say that I stand by everything I have said on the matter. There are large gaps in the knowledge base of 99 percent of the Bujinkan people out there. Despite this, they do better than a lot of arts and dojos out there. But they could be so much better. This art has so much potential. You look at guys like Noguchi, Oguri, etc and you can't help being amazed.

But the art was marketed in the west by Hayes, who really was not that experienced at that time. He did his best, but everyone makes mistakes. And some of these mistakes are the standard for what I see.

We need to be looking more at what Hatsumi and his senior teachers are doing. Nimravus once said that he planned on moving like the Japanese eventually. I said it then and I will say it again- to move like that at some point you need to start today.

Instead of building up new techniques, we need to look at the quality of everything we do from the ground up. We need to challenge what we believe about the most basic things we do. The basics are important, yes? And it is not the things we know we are bad at that we need to worry about, but rather the things we don't know are bad.

And yet people show up to Japan wanting to be be shown new stuff instead of having the stuff they think they know checked for accuracy.

Again, the stuff you see in the typical Bujinkan dojo is better than most stuff out there. But it is not all it could be. There are things that make it different from what it originally was. And a small change in direction at the beggining of a journey makes the final destination totally different.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I said it then and I will say it again- to move like that at some point you need to start today.

Start doing what? Doing things I'm still incapable of understanding, much less replicating? And if you need to start today, that would indicate that they're still training with the same degree of intensity they did when they themselves were in their 20's or 30's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the case.

 

[Don Roley]

And if you need to start today, that would indicate that they're still training with the same degree of intensity they did when they themselves were in their 20's or 30's. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that is the case.

That is something that I had a conversation about. One of the older shihan of the Bujinkan said that because they had training in low stances, etc, when they started out they were able to move as well as they did now. They don't go as low as they used to, and they don't need to in order to generate power and such. But those that try to move like the senior Japanese do now without the training the way they did at the beggining are missing the point. And the shihan will show you how you should start moving if you really want to learn.

And this is why I think we should be looking more to what they say and making an honest effort to learn to be better. Not more techniques, but the stuff we need to improve. The basic stuff like ways of generating power and structural form. If we don't understand, we need to start asking. And just because we think we know, does not mean that we do.

We could sit around and tell ourselves how good we are. But does that really help us? If we tell ourselves that we have a lot to learn and that much of what we 'know' is wrong may encourage us to go out and fill these gaps we have. The best training I have gotten has not been in the form of praise, but in corrections of things I did not even know were bad habits.

 

[Cryozombie]

Shouldn't that be Japan elitists? Obviously he is talking about things I have been saying here and elsewhere.

JUST to be clear, Don, YOUR posts are not the ONLY ones I was referring to.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That is something that I had a conversation about. One of the older shihan of the Bujinkan said that because they had training in low stances, etc, when they started out they were able to move as well as they did now. They don't go as low as they used to, and they don't need to in order to generate power and such. But those that try to move like the senior Japanese do now without the training the way they did at the beggining are missing the point. And the shihan will show you how you should start moving if you really want to learn.

I think we're talking past each other here. That is what I agree with, but it's exactly what a whole lot of people can't or don't want to see these days. They try to replicate what the Japanese do without understanding that there is a reason they can do the things they can do.

 

[Henso]

First and foremost, I like to say that I am a novice, having only just passed the godan test at the Diakomyosai on 11/30/05. That having been said, it is my opinion that BBT does not suck, although I am of the opinion that some (western pratitioners) do not compare favourably with either westerners who came before them, and especially not the Japanese!

There are many in America (BBT practitioners) who do not know the sanshin no kata, koshi kihon sanpo, torite goho, ukemi, taihenjutsu, etc, who hold shodan rank and above. This (in my opinion) is due to politically correct sensibilities that force certain instructors to conclude that they must promote, or risk offending the sensibilties of their students. The intrusion of this aspect of western reletavism(politically correct decadence) on a Japanese martial (combat art) results in two irreconcilably opposite forces leading to the dilution of the art.

P.S.

perhaps we should all post digital video of each of us practicing, so that we could determine the reality of the various popular assesments of global BBT standards. This would not only be instrustive to the reality of the assesments, but, would allow those who are self effacing to benefit from the collective knowledge....any takers??

 

[Cryozombie]

perhaps we should all post digital video of each of us practicing, so that we could determine the reality of the various popular assesments of global BBT standards. This would not only be instrustive to the reality of the assesments, but, would allow those who are self effacing to benefit from the collective knowledge....any takers??

I can see about 100 excuses poping up in response to this... "We dont want the frauds to see what we do, they could fool people!"

MY only hangup, as I have considered posting video in the Members in Motion section, is that *I* know were I stand in my training, and i dont need a bunch of internet yahoos comparing me to, I dunno, say, Soke, when I am clearly so far from his skill level its pathetic. But thats exactly what would happen, given the opportunity. Id never hear the end of "Soke doesnt move like that.." "In japan we dont move like that" So its still an Idea in the back of my mind at the moment.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

Well Tchno, if you are interested in TKD, I say go ahead and take it. I'm a taekwondoist but am dabbing in ninjutsu. I personally don't think either sucks. TKD's phenominal and ninjutsu/bujinkan is cool and has great weapons. Don't let people get you down. Lots of people say my core art of TKD sucks, but whoever is low enough to tear on your art sucks worse in my book.

Becky

 

[Cryozombie]

Well Tchno, if you are interested in TKD, I say go ahead and take it. I'm a taekwondoist but am dabbing in ninjutsu. I personally don't think either sucks. TKD's phenominal and ninjutsu/bujinkan is cool and has great weapons. Don't let people get you down. Lots of people say my core art of TKD sucks, but whoever is low enough to tear on your art sucks worse in my book.

Becky

becky,

TKD was the first art I ever studied, and honestly I cant see myself going back to it. I was being a bit sarcastic by suggesting that, based on the number of McDojo's in the TKD arts that are more interested in money than producing quality artists.

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

becky,

TKD was the first art I ever studied, and honestly I cant see myself going back to it. I was being a bit sarcastic by suggesting that, based on the number of McDojo's in the TKD arts that are more interested in money than producing quality artists.

So much for getting one's art dissed. Not all TKD schools are McDojos. Mine wasn't. My instructor only charged $35 a month so one can hardly say he was in it for the money. I'd rather stay with my art in the midst of all this crap talk of "all TKD schools are McDojos". That's a false generalization, just like bujikan and karate gets.

Becky

 

[Shogun]

I don't think Technopunk was trying to say that TKD wasn't good. I think what it sounded like he was saying is he has found what he needs in the Bujinkan, and has no interest in training another art. also, I think what he might of meant is even if he started training Taekwondo again, he would be hard pressed to find a good school where the instrcutor cares more about teaching a quality art, than making money. the amount a teacher charges has nothing to do with trying to make money or not. my Jiu Jitsu instrcutor charges up to $99 a month, depending on which program you take, and we have less that 12 people, while the Karate place down the road has 65 people and they charge 45 a month. but they are being fed mindless crap and paying out the *** for test fees, and getting their blackbelt in 9 months and crap like that. so there ya go.

 

[Cryozombie]

Thank you Shogun, you said pretty much exactly what I meant.

I was not Dissing TKD, I was saying that my experiences with the art (and I will say the same of the 2 years of hapkido I took) left me wanting MORE.

MY TaeKwan do experience was VERY "point" oriented, and we were never allowed to strike to the face, sweep, attack the legs etc. I was once reprimanded for throwing a "mid" level kick and my opponent picked up his leg and blocked it with his thigh... and I did pushups for "kicking below the beltline"

Ahem.

No thanks.

I understand fully that this is NOT what ALL TaeKwon do schools are about... but I found something that suits me more... and I wouldnt go back to an art where the large majority of schools in my area I have seen conduct themselves in this manner... or, put on the airs of doing so, as viewed by the 40 or so trophys in their windows.

Tournaments, Trophys, points and "rules to the fight". This suits some people really well, and its what they want from the arts. Its just not what I am looking for.
​

 

[Don Roley]

There are many in America (BBT practitioners) who do not know the sanshin no kata, koshi kihon sanpo, torite goho, ukemi, taihenjutsu, etc, who hold shodan rank and above. This (in my opinion) is due to politically correct sensibilities that force certain instructors to conclude that they must promote, or risk offending the sensibilties of their students. The intrusion of this aspect of western reletavism(politically correct decadence) on a Japanese martial (combat art) results in two irreconcilably opposite forces leading to the dilution of the art.

This is the type of thing I am talking about when I rant about the state of affairs in the Bujinkan. Sure, the Japanese don't suck. But if you are teaching and you don't know the Sanshin- you suck.

Worse, how many people think they know the sanshin, but don't? My old teacher was not taught the sanshin by his teacher and later complained about it to us. He did not mention that he learned the sanshin from videos. I know he has taught a lot of people in the Bujinkan and there are a lot of people who are doing some really weird sanshin and other stuff because of him. And he is only one example.

We can get better. But the first thing we need to do is question if what we think we know is actually correct or not. Then we can look to Japan to get the correction we need. Instead of new stuff, we need to look at the old stuff with new eyes.

 

[Henso]

I can see about 100 excuses poping up in response to this... "We dont want the frauds to see what we do, they could fool people!"

MY only hangup, as I have considered posting video in the Members in Motion section, is that *I* know were I stand in my training, and i dont need a bunch of internet yahoos comparing me to, I dunno, say, Soke, when I am clearly so far from his skill level its pathetic. But thats exactly what would happen, given the opportunity. Id never hear the end of "Soke doesnt move like that.." "In japan we dont move like that" So its still an Idea in the back of my mind at the moment.

Ah the hell with what people have to say, we're training to deal with punches, etc, aren't we? Since I liked your idea about posting in the Motion Forum, I took the plunge. I fear however, if I don't make it known here, the true wolves won't show up and I'll have deal deal with only polite compliments.

Have fun, and lets see who else dares to follow suit.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=478029#post478029

 

[Cryozombie]

Henso,

cool, Ill check them out from home... I only have 1 video of me and its Tameshigiri, so not real exciting stuff...

Although if anyone really wanted to see me "in action", you could always Purchase the Ed Martin Knife Defense Seminar DVD from Tengu6... Im on that.

And I am BADDDDD.

 

[Henso]

I've seen you in action, then. Ed is my teacher and I have that video. I will review it when I have a moment.

 

[Cryozombie]

I've seen you in action, then. Ed is my teacher and I have that video. I will review it when I have a moment.

Im the blonde guy on the cover in the corner... Im also Ed's Uke for the Knife to the groin technique.

He is an amazing man, I envy you being able to train with him.

 

[Seig]

Techno,
I know where of you speak. You spent an evening training with Lamont and me, and my students. Lamont and I are from different systems. Did you hear anything negative at all? Don brings up some good points, if I tell you you are good when in fact you suck, you will not improve.
This gets into my personal teaching philosophy (sp?). I came up in the old days when negative reingforcement was the only thing you got from the teacher. Positive reinforcement was an occassional nod of the head, and a rare advancement in rank. Out of the 135 people in my original class when I started formal training, I am the only one still training and the only one that went past second black. Am I guilty of this behavior? To some of my students, yes. I am guilty as hell of that with Tess, even though I don't mean to be. For the most part, I feel and practice that to progress, those in our society need positive and negative reinforcement. I am not saying they need them in equal amounts.

By the same token, there are always people that will tell you that if you are not doing what they are, thay you suck. They run rampant on these boards. That simply is not true. You simply cannot let the negativity of others get to you, it will suck the joy out of your own experience. Keep training, enjoy what you do, and progress with what is available to you. Obviously, you find some value in what you do, or you would not be doing it.

 

[shesulsa]

And, Seig, if I may ask ... part of the instructor reinforcement you mentioned has a lot to do with a student's definition of self, no? I know my teacher will sometimes completely ignore a student for up to a year to see what they're going to do on their own. They often leave, thinking they've fallen out of favor or the teaching sucks or whatever. I've seen other instructors completely tear down nice techniques that a student's been working on diligently for a long time just to see how s/he reacts.

If 'you' (the figurative you, not you Seig) determine who 'you' are and recognize that all 'your' skills will always need work, negative reinforcement will ultimately have no effect other than the reminder of humility. At least that's my gleaning at this point in my training.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that everyone's stuff needs work always and you really can't let that get you down, Techno. Just work it when you can as perfect as possible because it's who YOU are, not who your instructor is or anyone else.

Does that make any sense to anyone else but me? :lol2: