Yes Yes we suck.

[Monadnock]

Actually I worked internationally for 8-10 years throughout Europe and Japan and have trained with bujinkan people whose home base of training is in those geographic locations. Are you saying that those in Africa or South America may be different?

I haven't trained in any location outside of the US, nevermind internationally, so I won't make sweeping comments. That's all I was getting at.

WINjutsu.com may have some international schools listed in those areas if you are really interested. I'm guessing that this goes beyond unsatisfactory techniques for you at this point though.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Last time I checked, in the Bujinkan no technique was practiced for the sole purpose of rote memorization. There is a point to it all...unless one is satisfied of course.

 

[beau_safken]

However if the bujinkan wants to withdraw claims that it realisically trains people for combat or self defense then I wouldnt have any objections. Then it just an art and art is in the eyes of the beholder.

Well I mean its kinda along the same lines as saying all people that practice Krav Maga are taking womans self defense. Just because one group has seen a market for their product in one area doesnt mean it applies to all of that art. I look at it like this my friend. Out of 10 schools, 7 will be just enough to the average person's attention, 2 of those are so bad even the average isnt looking and 1 is worth looking at. Those could all be one style or multiple styles...but its all about the flavor. Some are just that...a business and some are their to make sure the art doesnt die off.

So what if maybe some of the Bujinkan schools advertise that it trains people for combat. Don't look for a reason to be offended...just say "Well it might be good for someone else." I would never talk about my martial arts school more than was necessary, as I knew what it was. If someone was interested I would just ask them to call my Guru and let him know if they wanted to see a class. No amount of what I can say will change someone or lead someone to a decision. Martial arts are not really a product or service in the literal sense. Its as you say, all in the eye of the beholder.

I think there have been more than enough references to individual situations about how this or that wasnt combat ready....but honestly man...Let them walk their own path. I always felt good knowing that I am confident in myself not just because of my martial arts training. Mostly because in the end, if comes down to the person's ability to pull the trigger in a sense.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I could be way off base here but dose not the Bujinkan still practice many o their techniques and still teach much of what they do to preserve their history, If that is the cas then if you dont want to learn those aspects of the art then don't study Bujinkan.
If you want to change the way Bujinkan is taught then stay in it long enough to become the GM or go out and buy yourslef a skokeship and have way teach something (by changeing it) and call it something close to bujinkan ( like my way of buju)

 

[Connovar]

The problem is that most people coming off the street looking for self-defense are pretty much clueless. A lot of MA instructors are also clueless. Plus there is the financial pressure to pull students into schools. So people get signed up. They learn some fancy moves against people that dont resist and they feel safe. Its like giving someone a parachute and telling them its there to jump out of a plane, when in reality the chute is just a bunch of rags.

KM is actually one of those 5% whose curriculum is good for self defense. Not perfect but generally inclusive of what is needed. (Bye the way I dont own or teach or even practice KM so this isnt an advertisement)

Even my own favorite system I would not recommend as a primary system for self defense. BJJ is great on the ground, but thats not where you want to be in the street or in combat. It also doesnt utilize striking which is so critical for combat. Its a usefull supplement but on its own its not enough.

MMA has the deficiences in that it doesnt address fighting weapons. It also is most usefull if you are more athletically inclined which many people arent.

The bujinkan has grappling. It has striking. It even offers some hand to weapons training. However much of the hand to weapons training is against ancient weapons so the value is decreased. As I mentioned before the methods of training are deficient as compared to MMA and BJJ methhods IMO.

So I guess I am tough on everyone, but I hate to see people mislead on (even if unintentionally) when it comes to defending one self or ones family. Anyway enough of this, I think I have said my piece and its time to let the dust settle.

 

[Don Roley]

I require any system I practice to show that the techniques and training are effective. The closer this testing is done to real life the better.

But Bujinkan has been tested- in real situations and not competitions. In my role as a traslator for Hiroshi Nagase, I have had several situations where people have used me to translate their thanks to him for teaching things that later helped them survive bad situations.

One of the problems I have with things like competitions is that people think that they are somehow accurate simulations of combat. But I already have talked about how things are different in the following post.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=434473#post434473

A situation where two people are trying to win is not close to reality at all. In a real situation there is usually an attacker, or several and the other side is just trying to survive. Peytonn Quinn has come up with armored assailant scenario training to an advanced degree that does a much better job IMO, but it discards the idea that someone has to win as well as a lot of the things you see in sport- type competition. If you get tangled up with one attacker, another might jump in and nail you from behind. If you take someone to the ground, they may pull a hidden knife. And so on.

The whole idea that you know a fight is coming and you know that there will only be one person and no weapons is a completly wrong way to test if something is good for the street or not. You do that for a long time on a frequent basis and you train yourself to deal with situations as if that was the case.

Hatsumi used to do randori- which is not the same as competition since winning may not be part of the plan. As has been said, this art is not about winning or losing, but of surviving. The problem is that many of his foreign students who only visited him started developing bad habits. I have seen this happen. At times Hatsumi has had people get up in front of the class and demonstrate techniques. Sometimes he tells one side to do something and the other to try to something that counters it with neither side assured of being able to pull it off. I think there are some examples of this on the Daikomyosai tapes involving sword. They should be looked at for an example. In many cases, people using soft, lightweight swords are so eager to "win" the scenario while in front of Hatsumi that they use these swords like the feather- weight things they are for more speed rather than the more slow, but grounded method that would be the only way you could do something with a real sword.

That is not the only thing, just the most demonstratable and availible example. People leave themselves open to attacks that are forbidden due to safety rules. They train themselves to leave open things that can't be taken advantage of in the dojo, but will be taken advantage of on the street.

But of course they "win" in a very demonstratable manner. Having done that a few times myself, I can attest to the fact that it does feel good and does stroke the ego quite a bit. Some people do get rather attached to that ego boost and work, consciously or unconsciously, at getting better at sparring more than street combat. And since they drop things that can't be used in sparring, they do better than those who spread themselves thinner. Just last night we were working on using various things around us to our advantage in fight. How the heck do you introduce that into a competition? It would be worthless training for someone getting ready for the vale tuado and the like.

I do like to test myself in as many ways as possible. I recently gave a friend in my dojo a rubber knife and asked him to try his best to stick me with it. But unless it is a real, violent situation where someone could get hurt or dead, it is only a simulation of combat and does not count in determining the art's effectiveness.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I could be way off base here but dose not the Bujinkan still practice many o their techniques and still teach much of what they do to preserve their history, If that is the cas then if you dont want to learn those aspects of the art then don't study Bujinkan.

It's all about creating attributes and familiarizing yourself with principles. Boxers can take one punch in order to give two in return, that is not an option you want to rely on if weapons, especially bladed ones, are involved. People accustomed to weapons fighting avoid getting too tangled up in one opponent, they stay away from conflicts as much as possible because the consequences may be dire, they always pay attention to the weapon they can't see etc etc etc...see what I'm saying?

One of my best training memories was once during the summer of 2004 when we were practicing bojutsu outdoors, and I had a hard time coordinating a specific attack combo. My teacher then changed the movement a little and had us do that for a while instead (I forget the exact details of what we were doing, but it was some sort of a low staff swing to the knees), and afterwards I found myself not only able to perform the first motion, but I also had learned a way of increasing my number of attacks per shift of body weight.:ultracool

 

[MrFunnieman]

This thread has raised several questions for me and has also prompted several thoughts and after being promted by the computer that I haven't posted for a while, I thought "why not".

Do I need to spend 6 months learning to "properly grip" a sword before I ever swing it...? Does my sanshin have to be flawless before I ever try Shito? Do I have to do Kihon Happo like a 15th dan before I should attempt to use it to save my life? Should I fall on my arms and palms and break my wrists if I should trip becuase my Ukemi is not flawless?

I know that someone (can't find the exact post) said they are studying BBT to survive a situation, not to win or lose. In other posts I have also heard that there are principles behind the kata and that is what needs to understood because it is impossible to have a kata for every conceivable attack. I have also read that there are limits on how you can train because certain types of training will limit how you respond when attacked in real life.

The words combat, self-defense, self-preservation, use of force and art thrown around.

Personally, my motivations for studying martial arts have changed. I recently took time to read several links on Marc "Animal" MacYoung's website and I found the information presented insightful and I hope to use it to keep my eyes open to the "weaknesses" of martial arts. MacYoung does a good job of defining combat, fighting, assault, self-defense and what kind of "defensive" behavior or reaction can land you in jail for assault, manslaughter, or murder. After reading his website I questioned what I was learning and what I could practically use if I were jumped at night by a would be "bad guy". My initial reason for studying BBT was for "survival" and my image of the art was painted by Stephen Hayes. I have trained with him and I feel confident that I know some self-defense. I don't want that anymore and after monitering the ninjutsu threads on MT I don't think I want to ever train in BBT, for various reasons. I don't want to train with Stephen Hayes either. Aikido is more my speed.

When I read the line I quoted from Technopunk, I wondered if historically samurai or ninja spent years perfecting a sword grip before they went into battle? Where the techniques developed in war time or a peacful era? Have we muddled the BBTwe know today with later ideals more in alignment with concepts closer to aesthetics or zen philospohy. If I am in an art that stresses survival and adaptability under pressure I am not sure why it is important to be able to "perfectly" hold a sword. Originally the techniques were used to get through battle. I am sure the techniques were pragmatic in nature. Flashforward to 2006- I have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to defend my life.

Enter martial "art". Art is individualized. I say to Namravus "Forget trying to move like a Japanese". It will never happen. I hope I have inferred correctly that you are of western decent. You will always move like Nimravus. Hatsumi moves like Hatsumi. Takamatsu moved uniquely and I move like Mrfunnieman. Can't escape myself. Everyone talks about making the martial art their own and then compares themself to the head of their lineage or that they are not doing "right". Is there room for personal improvement? Yes. Do I want to move more smoothly or subtly? Sure. Western Culture is different than Eastern Culture. The Japanese have taken things from China and made them their own, surely it's okay for Americans to take Japanese things and Americanize them? It's natural phenomenon.

There was more I wanted to sa, but I have somewhere I need to be in five minutes and my post is already long. To sum things up...

Technopunk: try and check out www.nononsenseselfdefense.com. I found it informative and insightful. Think about what you want from martial arts. Perfection of self, self-defense, cool moves you can never use on people at full speed without going to jail, whatever. Listen to constructive criticism, politely accept compliments, and do what you love doing and forget about the naysayers.

Mrfunnieman

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Personally, my motivations for studying martial arts have changed. I recently took time to read several links on Marc "Animal" MacYoung's website and I found the information presented insightful and I hope to use it to keep my eyes open to the "weaknesses" of martial arts. MacYoung does a good job of defining combat, fighting, assault, self-defense and what kind of "defensive" behavior or reaction can land you in jail for assault, manslaughter, or murder.

:cheers:

When I read the line I quoted from Technopunk, I wondered if historically samurai or ninja spent years perfecting a sword grip before they went into battle?

Zen quote #1: "even on a stone - three years."

Where the techniques developed in war time or a peacful era?

Both.

If I am in an art that stresses survival and adaptability under pressure I am not sure why it is important to be able to "perfectly" hold a sword.

Zen quote #2: "Zen is 7, ken is 3."

Originally the techniques were used to get through battle. I am sure the techniques were pragmatic in nature. Flashforward to 2006- I have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to defend my life.

I know of people who have, machetes etc. are still used throughout the world. You might also want to read my last post in this thread.

Enter martial "art". Art is individualized. I say to Namravus "Forget trying to move like a Japanese". It will never happen. I hope I have inferred correctly that you are of western decent.

Well, I do have some South American Indian blood in me, but mostly you are correct...though I'd say that I probably move like a mixture of four different people at least.

The Japanese have taken things from China and made them their own, surely it's okay for Americans to take Japanese things and Americanize them? It's natural phenomenon.

Assuming you take training in the Bujinkan for granted, sure.

 

[beau_safken]

Good show mrfunnyman.

I also agree completely that questioning your martial art for your own usage is very important. I know for me BJJ would just not work for me...I'm not into a martial art for the pure sense of the "fight". I'm the type that likes to know I have it if I need it. Plus working out is also a nice plus.

One person's temple is another's hell....

 

[MrFunnieman]

I see there is a need to further explain myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnieman
Where the techniques developed in war time or a peacful era?


Both.

My intention for this question was to address the issue of principles or techniques developed out of necessity during wartime versus techniques principles/ concepts developed theoretically during more peacful eras.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnieman
When I read the line I quoted from Technopunk, I wondered if historically samurai or ninja spent years perfecting a sword grip before they went into battle?


Zen quote #1: "even on a stone - three years."

Not into Zen or Koans. Makes no sense. My musing over this subject is more economic. To have decades invested in "proper" techniques to be slain quickly by a more competent opponent would make war very costly. I am not well versed in Japanese History, but I do know that periods of peace were very short in feudal Japan. I am sure the samurai turnover rate was very high- add on top of that- life expectantcy rates pre-twentieth century. How long did the forefathers of BBT really get to train? Into their fifties, sixties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnieman
Originally the techniques were used to get through battle. I am sure the techniques were pragmatic in nature. Flashforward to 2006- I have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to defend my life.


I know of people who have, machetes etc. are still used throughout the world. You might also want to read my last post in this thread

Let me reiterate '"I" have never been threatened by a sword or required to use one to denfend my life' For me- personally-
I did not mean to insinuate that sword techniques are not important. Let me clarify... It would take years to learn how to hold a sword properly...? Is the handle of a 15th or 16th century tachi akin to a 21st century machete? Is the grip the same? What about blade size and shape? Do the physics behind the weight, shape, and steel temper effect the performance or characteristics of the weapon? I am certain you will agree that we are learning a principle or concept behind a kata, so that it can be adapted to various situations. Therefore, why again is it so improtant to emulate perfectly what is happening in Japan. Westerners have poor technique, right? But in reality, technique isn't important, what is important is the principle behind the technique.

I hate to burst any bubbles, but the Japanese do not corner the market on effective martial arts. There is a set limit to the ways a joint can be distorted before it is dislocated or broken. Those concepts have been developed by other cultures throughout the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnieman
Enter martial "art". Art is individualized. I say to Namravus "Forget trying to move like a Japanese". It will never happen. I hope I have inferred correctly that you are of western decent.


Well, I do have some South American Indian blood in me, but mostly you are correct...though I'd say that I probably move like a mixture of four different people at least.

Again clarification required. This was not an implication that race or cultural heritage affects movement. People born and raised in Japan have a unique body language. The same applies to every culture throughout the world.

In college I used to have roommates that were born and raised in India. In highschool I had friends whose families were from India, but they were born and raised in America. Overtime as I met other Indians I was able to discern where they were born and raised because of the unique body language of their home culture. I am sure it is equally easy to spot an American in Paris, without that person saying a word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFunnieman
The Japanese have taken things from China and made them their own, surely it's okay for Americans to take Japanese things and Americanize them? It's natural phenomenon.


Assuming you take training in the Bujinkan for granted, sure.

I try not to assume much. Like Hatsumi, in his benevolent and compassionate nature, is telling us "gyjin" (sp?) the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It makes an "***" out of "u" and "me"
As always Nimravus, it has been fun.

MrFunnieman

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My intention for this question was to address the issue of principles or techniques developed out of necessity during wartime versus techniques principles/ concepts developed theoretically during more peacful eras.

If practicality has been retained up to this day within the nine schools I see no evidence that they would have stagnated all too much during the Edo era.

Not into Zen or Koans. Makes no sense.

Sure it does, but you have to think for yourself. "This stuff cannot be taught. It has to be discovered for yourself."

To have decades invested in "proper" techniques to be slain quickly by a more competent opponent would make war very costly.

Well, that would explain the odd lineage of Togakure ryu...:uhyeah:

I am not well versed in Japanese History, but I do know that periods of peace were very short in feudal Japan. I am sure the samurai turnover rate was very high- add on top of that- life expectantcy rates pre-twentieth century. How long did the forefathers of BBT really get to train? Into their fifties, sixties?

Don't forget that they trained with a degree of intensity pretty much unheard of these days.

I did not mean to insinuate that sword techniques are not important. Let me clarify... It would take years to learn how to hold a sword properly...? Is the handle of a 15th or 16th century tachi akin to a 21st century machete? Is the grip the same? What about blade size and shape? Do the physics behind the weight, shape, and steel temper effect the performance or characteristics of the weapon?

It never occurred to you that one may train with both, did it?

I am certain you will agree that we are learning a principle or concept behind a kata, so that it can be adapted to various situations. Therefore, why again is it so improtant to emulate perfectly what is happening in Japan.

"Perfectly" is a strong word, don't you think? Also, whom are you talking about? Me or someone with the "ugly" patch?

Westerners have poor technique, right? But in reality, technique isn't important, what is important is the principle behind the technique.

Initially technique IS important. Shu ha ri, anyone...?

I hate to burst any bubbles, but the Japanese do not corner the market on effective martial arts. There is a set limit to the ways a joint can be distorted before it is dislocated or broken. Those concepts have been developed by other cultures throughout the world.

Yes, and the minute you put on a black gi you make the choice to do it the Japanese way. If you find that doesn't suit you the door is always open.

Again clarification required. This was not an implication that race or cultural heritage affects movement. People born and raised in Japan have a unique body language. The same applies to every culture throughout the world.

A lot of the shihan who don't speak Japanese do however tend to be able to "listen" with their bodies in order to understand what the Japanese are doing. It seems to be working alright for some of them at least.

 

[MrFunnieman]

"Uncle!", "Uncle!" I give. Your right. I bow to your rapier wit Nimravus.:wah:

To answer Technopunk

So why do we do it?

And, alternatly, if what we are learning "works" for us... if it keeps us alive, helps us get home after a confrontation, keeps our arms from getting broken when we slip on the ice and fall, alerts us to danger and helps us avoid it, and many other examples I can think of...

Do we really suck? Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?

I started because of the super human appeal. Ninjas who could survive and adapt and had a martial system that covered all types of scenarios. Why do I train now? Not for self-defense. More for flexiblity (mental and physical) and I hope to use martial arts -coupled with other disciplines- as a vehicle for self-actualization. I am not worried about being jumped. Why? Because I don't go to places where I elevate my chances of being attacked. Haven't walked down a dark alley by myself, looking lost and as an easy victim in years. I work towards not being rude or impolite to people and I use courtesy as much as possible. I believe these actions reduce the possibility of upsetting someone to the point of physical aggression. Allow me to share one of my most cherished resources and points of reference: The movie Road House.

Dalton: All you have to do is follow three simple rules. One, never underestimate your opponent. Expect the unexpected. Two, take it outside. Never start anything inside the bar unless it's absolutely necessary. And three, be nice.

If somebody gets in your face and calls you a **********, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal.

Dalton: I want you to be nice until it's time to not be nice.

Steve: Being called a ********** isn't personal?
Dalton: No. It's two nouns combined to elicit a prescribed response.
Steve: What if somebody callas my mama a whore?
Dalton: Is she?


Why everyone else is doing it I don't know. I plan on training with the most qualified instructors that are available to me. I guarantee they most likely will not be Japanese, but may travel to Japan from time to time. Don Roley is luck to be so near the source. It is not my priority to train in Japan or with Hatsumi. It obviously is a priority for others. Cool. I am glad there are others who are so serious about their training. I don't feel my training is lacking, but it is not BBT either. It's an X-kan.

Do we really suck? Or is what we are doing just... not the same or not as good as the people we are being compared to?

It would be great if all the Westerners in Japan would take a break and show the rest of us barbarians across the pond how to do it properly. It would be the humanitarian thing to do.

Mrfunnieman

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Funny..."Road House" happens to be my grandmother's favorite flick, that didn't stop her from getting shot at by some psycho years ago while riding in a cab.

I don't feel my training is lacking, but it is not BBT either. It's an X-kan.

It would be great if all the Westerners in Japan would take a break and show the rest of us barbarians across the pond how to do it properly. It would be the humanitarian thing to do.

 

[Bigshadow]

However much of the hand to weapons training is against ancient weapons so the value is decreased.

There are many more lessons to be learned by training with a sword or ancient weapons than what is visible to the eye. I won't elaborate about these lessons as I am still learning them, but I will encourage people to keep training with them. After all this is the martial art of "distance".

If I am in an art that stresses survival and adaptability under pressure I am not sure why it is important to be able to "perfectly" hold a sword.

Don't stop training yet, keep training and the answers will come to you.

Training with ancient weapons is not about learning how to cut with a sword to survive a confrontation on the street. It really doesn't matter if it is a sword, machete, baseball bat, hanbo, 2x4, broom stick, hocky stick, etc. It isn't about cutting, slicing, hacking, whacking, or whatever. There are principles involved that are the REAL lessons to be discovered.

I could be way off base here but dose not the Bujinkan still practice many o their techniques and still teach much of what they do to preserve their history, If that is the cas then if you dont want to learn those aspects of the art then don't study Bujinkan.

I would disagree! Throughout my fairly short amount of training (relative to many), we are not encouraged to be collectors of kata and techniques. It isn't as much about preserving history but about learning and discovering.

Sure it does, but you have to think for yourself. "This stuff cannot be taught. It has to be discovered for yourself."

Great! So true! I have to remember that one!

 

[arnisador]

Road House is showing on one of the movie channels this month. I've set up to tape it for my son. Fun stuff!

 

[tshadowchaser]

we are not encouraged to be collectors of kata and techniques. It isn't as much about preserving history but about learning and discovering.

thank you I understand a little better now

 

[rutherford]

Free VHS copy of Roadhouse for anybody who wants one. But, I've only got 1, you see.

I'm getting rid of most of my tapes by just setting them up free at the local store.