Would Martial Arts created by women fundamentally be better than those created by men?

[Dirty Dog]

As I said, that other bit was specifically addressed to martial d, not anyone else because of his attitude which is why I said this


because this is exactly how he is

I appreciate you answering but it wasn't meant as points for you or anyone else because as you have shown you don't have that 'men are always stronger because they have testicles, women will always be weak because they don't' attitude.

So it's not OK to club you over the head and drag you back to our cave?
Huh...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As I said, that other bit was specifically addressed to martial d, not anyone else because of his attitude which is why I said this


because this is exactly how he is

I appreciate you answering but it wasn't meant as points for you or anyone else because as you have shown you don't have that 'men are always stronger because they have testicles, women will always be weak because they don't' attitude.

I get that wasn't meant towards me, but I wanted to make clear that there is a legitimate argument, and legitimate biological difference that doesn't come from just the men = strong attitude. How that involves trans people is obviously an entirely different story.

 

[Tez3]

I get that wasn't meant towards me, but I wanted to make clear that there is a legitimate argument, and legitimate biological difference that doesn't come from just the men = strong attitude. How that involves trans people is obviously an entirely different story.

However that argument wasn't one I was making. I take it as read there are differences. It is also true though that the differences that were once thought to be huge aren't actually as big as people thought in the past ( and some still do)
Take brains for example. Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains

Remember this, when women couldn't run marathons? Women aren't as fast as men but there's no valid proof they can't run long distances in fact women are excelling at 'ultra' events' now yet it was thought women simply were biologically unable to run ...at all not just distance running.
Kathrine Switzer, The First Woman To Run The Boston Marathon, Was Almost Kicked Out For Her Gender

 

[skribs]

A female kicker is in the NFL right now (Jacksonville I think).

Nope. Jacksonville has a male kicker. When I look up "female kicker NFL", it looks like there were some talks with a soccer player (Carli Lloyd) but I can't find that she's actually in the NFL.

@Tez3 The average man is stronger than the average woman. The strongest men are stronger than the strongest women. The world records for most athletic displays show this, in that the women's categories are almost always slower or of lower weight or reps than mens. The only categories in which women have higher records are when women are competing against women (for example, I read an article about a woman who had more gold medals in world championships than men in a similar event...but she wasn't competing against men to get those medals). There's a big reason why most athletics are divided between men and women, and it has nothing to do with sexism. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Without that division, women's athletics basically wouldn't exist.

 

[jobo]

Nope. Jacksonville has a male kicker. When I look up "female kicker NFL", it looks like there were some talks with a soccer player (Carli Lloyd) but I can't find that she's actually in the NFL.

@Tez3 The average man is stronger than the average woman. The strongest men are stronger than the strongest women. The world records for most athletic displays show this, in that the women's categories are almost always slower or of lower weight or reps than mens. The only categories in which women have higher records are when women are competing against women (for example, I read an article about a woman who had more gold medals in world championships than men in a similar event...but she wasn't competing against men to get those medals). There's a big reason why most athletics are divided between men and women, and it has nothing to do with sexism. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Without that division, women's athletics basically wouldn't exist.

last time this topic came up, some made much the same claim and i challenged him to show that the average women was weaker than the average man, and after a lot of huff and puff, he fail misably and went off in a sulk

are you prepared to back up your claim with DATA

nb to save a false start you specified ALL men are stronger at the average, that would seem to requyire you to consider all 7 billion folk on the ploanet not just anacdotes about peoip0le you have meet

nb it would also help if yoiu state which average your refering to, mean mode medium and how your measuring strengh

 

[Tez3]

So it's not OK to club you over the head and drag you back to our cave?
Huh...

Well..seeing as it's you.. maybe I'll let you try

 

[skribs]

last time this topic came up, some made much the same claim and i challenged him to show that the average women was weaker than the average man, and after a lot of huff and puff, he fail misably and went off in a sulk

are you prepared to back up your claim with DATA

nb to save a false start you specified ALL men are stronger at the average, that would seem to requyire you to consider all 7 billion folk on the ploanet not just anacdotes about peoip0le you have meet

nb it would also help if yoiu state which average your refering to, mean mode medium and how your measuring strengh

First off, I never said "ALL men." The quote is right there.

Second, you already show a lack of understanding of how statistics work. You don't need data on all 7 billion people to come up with statistically significant results.

Women in Combat: Physical Differences May Mean Uphill Battle | Live Science - Men have an average of 26 pounds more muscle mass. Women had 40% less upper body strength and 33% less lower body strength, on average.

https://www.asep.org/asep/asep/JEPonlineOCTOBER2016_Monteiro_Bigio.pdf - study of both athletes and non-athletic folk, found men had an average chest press of 257.1% that of women, and a back squat of 167.1% that of women.

Do men really have more upper body strength than women? - different studies show between 40% and 52% less upper body strength in women

«««Апатоlу Каrliп»»» on Twitter - A graph showing average grip strength by men or women in a variety of countries. In every country, the average female grip strength is about 10-15 kg lower than that of a man.

I could keep going, but study after study show the same thing. It doesn't matter if they go for athletic folk or everyday folk, they find the same thing. If you really want to test 7 billion people, then you're asking for an impossible standard that no statistician would ever consider necessary.

In fact, since it's pretty much common knowledge, I'm going to put the burden of proof on you. Can you provide one study that says the average man is not stronger than the average woman?

 

[Martial D]

As scientists are finding out the differences aren't as nearly as great as people first thought. women also have testosterone, some much more than others, and men have oestrogen and both have more hormones than just those.

What you are showing with your posts proves what Jackson Katz, an expert in gender violence studies, states... "that some men cling to their gender’s generally greater capacity for physical power as justification that “somehow, men are still more entitled to power,” “As women have started competing with men in areas that men had historically excluded them from, some men have retreated into this world where physical size and strength matters even more, because it’s the one area where they continue to hold advantage over women.”

Katz argues that this might help to explain some of the popularity and growth of American football, boxing, MMA and other violent sports. “A man might not be able to understand or articulate this, but the thinking comes down to, ‘Yes, a woman may make more money than me, my boss might be a woman, my wife might have better job than me, but none of them can play football,’” Katz says. He notes, though, that obsession with gladiator-type masculinity tends to be a predominantly American phenomenon."


You sound outraged that women could have the audacity to be strong and able to lift weights, do 'male' jobs etc. It's comedic in this day and age.

Ridiculous shrillery

 

[Martial D]

and women have tes as well, and no its not very different at all

the same exercise will yeld the same results for both sex. at least in terms of strengh and she will most certainly be stronger than the pen pusher

I suppose we live in different realities.

 

[Tez3]

Men, particularly, American men have been the driving force in military might for the USA since it's inception.

To be fair that's not very long lol, there's been a lot of female warriors throughout history.

But to reiterate, the quote I posted was very specifically for one person because it pertains to him and his inabilty to allow woman can be strong, not necessarily as strong as men he just doesn't think women can be strong.

Men, particularly, American men have been the driving force in military might for the USA since it's inception

I should think American men were a driving force in the American military, us Brits certainly weren't . However women as soldiers wasn't unknown.
Women of The Civil War: Wives and Sisters Who Went Onto the Battlefield Dressed As Men

Wartime cross-dressers - Wikipedia

Female warriors weren't unknown throughout history, necessity being the most pressing reason.

Female P Coy pass
the most obvious question here is how the hell the horses know when to pull the cord on their parachutes.......


The thing is though I'm not arguing that women are the same as men or as strong, I'm pointing out the absurdity of one poster's assertion that women cannot be strong...ever.

 

[jobo]

First off, I never said "ALL men." The quote is right there.

Second, you already show a lack of understanding of how statistics work. You don't need data on all 7 billion people to come up with statistically significant results.

Women in Combat: Physical Differences May Mean Uphill Battle | Live Science - Men have an average of 26 pounds more muscle mass. Women had 40% less upper body strength and 33% less lower body strength, on average.

https://www.asep.org/asep/asep/JEPonlineOCTOBER2016_Monteiro_Bigio.pdf - study of both athletes and non-athletic folk, found men had an average chest press of 257.1% that of women, and a back squat of 167.1% that of women.

Do men really have more upper body strength than women? - different studies show between 40% and 52% less upper body strength in women

«««Апатоlу Каrliп»»» on Twitter - A graph showing average grip strength by men or women in a variety of countries. In every country, the average female grip strength is about 10-15 kg lower than that of a man.

I could keep going, but study after study show the same thing. It doesn't matter if they go for athletic folk or everyday folk, they find the same thing. If you really want to test 7 billion people, then you're asking for an impossible standard that no statistician would ever consider necessary.

In fact, since it's pretty much common knowledge, I'm going to put the burden of proof on you. Can you provide one study that says the average man is not stronger than the average woman?

but you do need a % of all races in all countries, you wouldnt try and calculate the average height for the planet just on american studies would you? would you????????

ok lets talk you through it out of those 7 billion what is the strengh for the average women ? how have you elimated selection bias,how have you defined strengh. mean mode or meduim ? and what % were included in the test to give a significant result.?

 

[skribs]

but you do need a % of all races in all countries, you wouldnt try and calculate the average height for the planet just on american studies would you? would you????????

ok lets talk you through it out of those 7 billion what is the strengh for the average women ? how have you elimated selection bias,how have you defined strengh. mean mode or meduim ? and what % were included in the test to give a significant result.?

Can you provide just one study to prove me false?

 

[jobo]

Can you provide just one study to prove me false?

i never made a claim im asking you to back up your claim,

clearly your now having second thoughts that it can be proved

but here you are ive asked twice for your defintion of strengh as you havent bothered to answer, this counts

A scientific study just proved women have more stamina than men

they have the strengh to go for longer

 

[Yokozuna514]

That said, there is a distinctive difference between men and women when it comes to specific sports. I'm certain that the best female basketball player is better than the average NBA player. And I'm also certain that, despite my own interest in basketball and playing it from about 10-18 every day for 2+ hours, that me or the others on my block could beat the people in the WNBA. Simply because those women were more talented then we were. But I'm also certain that they will never reach kobe bryant/michael jordan/lebron james level. There is a certain limit that's a result of biology, and outside of professional sports it doesn't matter in the slightest, but it does give men a distinct advantage in sports. Not an overcomable advantage-as I said the best WNBA players are probably better than the average NBA players, but that advantage still exists. And my assumption is this is true for most sports.

Nice to read that there is another basketball enthusiast on this board but I would respectfully disagree about your comment regarding the best women in the WNBA beating the average NBA player. Even the weakest NBA player has an above average level of skill as they have had to beat out hundreds of thousands of players to get that spot. They only look weaker by comparison to the truly exceptional individuals at the top of the game. Women in the WNBA are also exceptional athletes but there are far less women playing basketball than men. Yes, you do have some exceptional players in the WNBA but I would be very surprised to see them dominate the 'weakest' of the men in the NBA. Basketball is just one of those sports that favours size, speed, athleticism and aggressivity for the ball which seems to appeal to a greater pool of males in comparison to females. If more girls/women played basketball then I would tend to think the cream of the crop would be closer to what the boys/men can produce but for now, all things created equal, the higher level of competition on the men's side certainly produces more and better athletes.

I know the above may seem a little misogynistic but it is not meant to be. I've played basketball all my life and have coached boys and girls for the last 15 years. I've come across some exceptional players in that time and can say that the girls biggest issue is that they do not have enough competition to develop as quickly as the boys. We've tried to give them equal opportunities but they just do not come out in the same numbers. The pathway through and after college is also not as developed as it is for boys. Sadly I wish it were not so but I think it comes down to just not enough girls flowing through the systems to have someone develop pathways that will generate more interest in the sport for them.

Although I do agree that men have an advantage here I am not certain the advantage comes solely from physiology as much as from the Darwinian natural selection from a greater pool of interested and motivated players. I wish I knew what the national statistics were of basketball players that were male and female but based on what I have seen at the regional level it is close to 10 boys for every 1 girl that is interested to play. The field narrows considerably for girls as players reach the age of 14.

Ok, did not mean to derail a MA thread to talk about basketball but I have been trying to find a way to increase the participation rate of girls playing basketball. Heck I would be interested in hearing how to increase the interest of teenage girls playing ANY sport period. Can you tell I have a few daughters and would like to make sure they have someone to play with/against so that they can push themselves to excel ?

 

[skribs]

i never made a claim im asking you to back up your claim,

clearly your now having second thoughts that it can be proved

but here you are ive asked twice for your defintion of strengh as you havent bothered to answer, this counts

A scientific study just proved women have more stamina than men

they have the strengh to go for longer

Because my claim is common knowledge.

In fact, the study you linked confirms it. It says that men are stronger than women. They tired less, but the strength is still in favor of the men.

 

[jobo]

Because my claim is common knowledge.

In fact, the study you linked confirms it. It says that men are stronger than women. They tired less, but the strength is still in favor of the men.

but the ability to endure is strengh and women it seems have more or it so they are stonger, you cant start trying to impose your defintion on the discusion when you were asked repeably to declare it and failed to do so

 

[skribs]

but the ability to endure is strengh and women it seems have more or it so they are stonger, you cant start trying to impose your defintion on the discusion when you were asked repeably to declare it and failed to do so

I identified it at the very beginning. Amount you can lift or how fast you can go.

You've added words to my statements, it's no surprise you missed some, too.

 

[jobo]

I identified it at the very beginning. Amount you can lift or how fast you can go.

You've added words to my statements, it's no surprise you missed some, too.

thats not really a defintion is it?
how fast you can go ? so your including walking speed but not walking distance ?

 

[skribs]

thats not really a defintion is it?
how fast you can go ? so your including walking speed but not walking distance ?

You're impossible to talk to. Back on ignore.

 

[drop bear]

However that argument wasn't one I was making. I take it as read there are differences. It is also true though that the differences that were once thought to be huge aren't actually as big as people thought in the past ( and some still do)
Take brains for example. Neurosexism: the myth that men and women have different brains

Remember this, when women couldn't run marathons? Women aren't as fast as men but there's no valid proof they can't run long distances in fact women are excelling at 'ultra' events' now yet it was thought women simply were biologically unable to run ...at all not just distance running.
Kathrine Switzer, The First Woman To Run The Boston Marathon, Was Almost Kicked Out For Her Gender

The flip side of that coin means that women can compete equally with men in areas that they realistically can't.

E.g.. when we put 100kg transgender athletes in the mix.