Is Wing Chun the best martial art for women?

[7starmantis]

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[arnisador]

Hmm, thats interesting. Did they say why they aren't offering it anymore?

It looks like he's moved the parts of it that interest people into the JKD part of his program. I gather he still teaches some of the ideas, but not the whole art. I'm going back tomorrow night and will hopefully learn more--I may try to weasal some WC out of him.

I visited the praying mantis school near me twice but at the least they don't keep to their posted schedule of training. With so very many schools in Albuquerque (see this thread), I haven't tried to chase them down. Another praying mantis school had a big article on the front page of yesterday's paper!

 

[SilatFan]

Hello all.



I just came across this thread and I’d like to give my two cents. As far as Mr. Daniel’s question goes about if “Wing Chun is a great if not the best Martial Art to have women?” In my experience (I’m a police officer) I would say no. Let me say that I have had training experience with only two Wing Chun masters. One was a student of Kenneth Chung’s & the other was a student of Ho Kam Ming (sp?). Again both held instructors ranks and owned their own schools. From what I felt from them and from what I felt/saw of their students I don’t feel that they could adequately prepare a women to consistently have a 50/50 chance against a male attacker.



But to be honest no 1 art seems to provide a curriculum that can do that. What does not seem to be understood is that, depending on where you get your statistics from, in 70 – 90% of ALL rapes the victim knows the attacker (date rape, boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, etc, etc….). Also alcohol and/or drugs are a factor is most of these attacks. Being aware of where your drink is, watching when its being prepared, NEVER leaving it unattended, knowing your limits as far as alcohol/drugs goes, not allowing yourself to be isolated from other people that YOU know are some key variables that will help you increase your odds of safety - Punching from a good root not so much.



From a physical/technical aspect I feel that women (and men) should study:

• BJJ: Many of the basic positions that rapes occur in are FIGHTING positions in BJJ (ex: guard & turtle).
• Kali: Understanding weapons and improvised weapons. A 115 lbs women, with a knife, can kill a 250 lbs All American Wrestler very easily if she is educated in the use of that tool.
• Realistic knowledge of where, when and what situations are dangerous (Not the stereotypical “You’re walking alone at 3 AM in an empty parking lot” scenario).
• Basic Striking methods found in systems like American Combatives.

I find that Wing Chun and most other (oh, oh, here I go) “traditional” martial arts just were not made for the needs of women and their self-defense needs. Nor do I think that many of these instructors fully comprehend the issues that women face. But that really only pertains as far as self-defense against rape attacks are concerned. The other benefits that martial arts offer still apply to women as they do men.



Disclaimer: I am a practitioner of BJJ and a couple of SE Asian MA’s in addition to work related training. So maybe I’m also a little biased.

 

[bcbernam777]

and whose 'advertising materials' are you pushing? no offense, its just that everyone's got their own opinions.

personally, i feel that all martial arts that i've been exposed to would be well suited to women, provided they receive good instruction from qualified teachers in that art and are serious about their training. hey, wouldn't that also apply to us guys?

the reason i listed those opposites of 'bcbernam777's points was to agree that wing chun would be a good choice, but that there would be many other equally good choices. i cant think of any art that doesn't in some way follow those four points, or where the four 'opposites' would apply. can you?

pete

Lets look at my post then in more detail


1) It relies on power generated from ground power generated through the correct body structure as opposed to power via the muscular strucure.

No not every martial art generates their energy in this way, and the structure in Wing Chun is still different to the structure that you mentioned in your post, in particular, Tai Chi, who use a 2 sectional body structure as opposed to a single structure, they also have a different centre of gravity than Wing Chun as they have to utilise a centre of gravity that has to deal with the 2 section body structure.

2) Its redirection and soft hands means it can be utilised by a weaker opponant to great effect

Yes this is similar to these other arts, but there are plenty of arts that utilise a more tense energy, although the angles of deflection are different in Wing Chun (note I didnt say better). As for other arts not meeting force for force, are you serious??

3) its effectiveeness in infighting make it perfect also for a smaller fighter.

In my opinion, (now to those who study these arts I mean no offense) bagua, and Tai Chi are circular in their attacks and movments, also the footwork at times cross each other, the attack/defense position of wing chun is straight, in my opinion, a straight line beats a circle, (note there are circles in Wing Chun but these are utilised differently to other circular arts)

4) because of its smoothness it requires the practicioner to learn how to loosen and relax their muscular system, men, in particular larger men have a tougher time with this.

No not all MA's are smooth, or as fluid.

To me Wing chun is the best Martial Art, this is my opinion, which comes after having already studied several different martial arts, and I still think that it contains all that is necessary for effective attack/defense for woman.

 

[ed-swckf]

yup


Define "Self-defence".

Which by the way, physical fighting is a rather small part of.

Or do you mean it's primary purpose is to defend against people who physically attack you in a certain way?

Either way, I'm sorry you can't find something more valuable in your training then being able to hurt people.

Well glad to see you are able to jump to all kinds of conclusions about me personally whilst basing them on no facts whatsoever. And all of that creates a very nice smoke screen for you to continually ignore the question asked of you, are you unable to answer the question initially asked? I will quote the original question below if you would like another crack at it without trying to sidetrack a direct question with unfounded nonsense.

"I have to ask, what do you think wing chun is good for? You have already said its no good in the ring for competition fighting and now you are slating its usage in a self defense situation. It seems you don't hold wing chun in very much of a high regard at all."

Regards

 

[ed-swckf]

Not quite.

I stated that Wing Chun is not the best art for learning to fight, It was taken that I meant it had no value, that is not at all what I meant as I believe that no matter what the art any fighting skills are a secondary benefit. In general, most people that train only for learning to fight don't last long.

Actually after you said it wasn't the best art for fighting you have also mentioned that its not really up to much in terms of self defense which you yourself have said only encompasses fighting to fill a small portion of. The question then asked of you was asking what good can you find in wing chun, can you see any plus sides to it, particularly in its area of design, self defense. So what skills does wing chun give you that aid in self defense in your opinion?

But the big problem with self-defence is it is impossible to agree on a definition. There is a difference between a one on one girl fight, a teacher handling a out of control student, being mugged, being raped, dealing with weapons, simply avoiding violence altogether... There is a difference between a stranger, a aquaintance and a violent spouse.

I think its easy to accept the definition to cover all of those and more and be generally agreed upon.

All of those things require very different sorts of training, and looking purely at the physical side of it, very different fighting skills. So... without aiming at anything in particular go for the general stuff, hard contact, aggression, confidence, fitness, comfort with fighting different types of people in different ways.

All of these are acheived through wing chun though as well as a lot of others.

But truthfully, self-defence is far more in your head and frame of mind IMO then any set of physical skills. So focusing on only the physical is looking in the wrong place for the wrong things.

confidence isn't really a physical skill yet you mentioned it as such, however, are you suggesting that wing chun concentrates purely on the physical? I'd say in accordance with my training that all fighting is 10% physical and 90% mental.

 

[ed-swckf]

Personal experience - Not much, read some books on it, seen some videos, played with some non-top level practitioners. Been shown some drills, mainly hand trapping stuff, but I can't say I ever studied it seriously or in depth. My decission not to do so wasn't because of effectiveness, just personal taste. I do believe that for fighting MMA is most effective, (especially if you also play with weapons and ignore the competition centered rules) but that isn't why I do it. It's purely coincidence, that's the training I have the most fun doing, so I do it.

Well wing chun won't fit everyone, like you said its often a matter of tates and you enjoy and have fun with your training. For this reason alone you couldn't lump all women into one art, it has to be something that fits them personally.

I also never said it wasnt't effective, I said it is not the most effective for fighting. Which, all evidence would say, it is not.

what is the most effective, how would you rate wing chun for its effectiveness in this feild and how sturdy is the evidence that supports that.

I also did not say it can't produce good fighters, I'm sure it can. But could they have become better fighters by shifting there training? Probably.

Well if you mean by being open to other arts, i completely agree.

Wing Chun may very well be a superior art, but not if you only look at fighting ability. However, there are many other ways to evaluate a system. I do find it odd that fighting gets so much attention, especially from systems that have other aspects which are just as important as strengths.

What are these other aspects? And do you find that wing chun offers them? However looking at fighting ability alone what is the superior art? Whats the best art out there? Or is that just completely subjective?

I know that there are things that a MMA class will never be able to match compared to many traditional schools. I'm ok with that, I won't get defensive if someone points it out. If someone comes looking for those things I may even point them to a school that does that if I know of one I'm comfortable reccomending.

Thats ok but if you dispute that MMA has the certain weaknesses that it is being accused of then i'm sure you would retort with that dispute especially if recomennding a school isn't a viable option, right?

Why everyone only focuses on fighting and ignores everything else that different systems have to offer is beyond me...

Well its quite funny that you ignored the question that would allow you say what other things wing chun has to offer.

 

[Flying Crane]

click on the user cp link on the top left hand corner of the page (almost top ) to see good and bad rep points.

gotcha. thanks. there's a whole world yet in this forum that apparently i hadn't discovered..

 

[Flying Crane]

Mod. Note.
This is not the area to discuss reputation given, negative or not. If you feel you have been unfairly targeting by negative reputation points, contact a member of the Admin team, otherwise, please keep its discussion out of the thread. If your interested in reputation information please see this thread.

On a second note, please keep this discussion at a polite and respectful level. This is not the place to single out anyone or post personal attacks. Anyone from any background can post here and are just as welcome to make their opinions known, I expect all of us to respect them and treat them politely. If you have a problem with a specific user, please feel free to use the ignore feature and ignore their posts.

Thank you.

-Adam C-
-7starmantis-
-MT Super Moderator-

my apologies.

 

[ed-swckf]

gotcha. thanks. there's a whole world yet in this forum that apparently i hadn't discovered..

Its ok, its kinda new to me to, never been on a forum with reputation points before, I'm supprised i haven't been putin the minuses yet to be honest.

 

[ed-swckf]

I appologise to anyone who feels my posts are a personal attack on them.

 

[dmax999]

Interesting debate going on, but I have a different viewpoint here.

When I took WC, it was with an EXCELLENT teacher who is basically unknown to the entire MA world (So you'll have to trust me on it). In the school were two women, who were good friends, and they stuck around for well over a year. After the first year in the school there were two groups of students, those who were devestating to spar against, and those that you just knew would never become good fighters. Note: The school focused almost exclusevly on sparring and realistic drills to improve sparring, a WC version of what you might see in a boxing gym (I wish more Kung-Fu schools were like this) Well, the two women put themselves in the "never going to make it" group.

Does this make WC bad? No. Would they have done better with a better teacher? No. It is my belief that they were doomed in any MA for defense, because they didn't put the effort required into it. Without proper effort I believe WC acutally IS more worthless then no training. With the proper effort, I also believe WC is one of the more effective systems.

It depends on the woman far more then the system. If she wants to fight and is willing to put in the work required, you can do a lot worse then WC. If she wants to look "cool" doing Kung-Fu, find a Contemporary WuShu school.

 

[bcbernam777]

Does this make WC bad? No. Would they have done better with a better teacher? No. It is my belief that they were doomed in any MA for defense, because they didn't put the effort required into it. Without proper effort I believe WC acutally IS more worthless then no training. With the proper effort, I also believe WC is one of the more effective systems.

It depends on the woman far more then the system. If she wants to fight and is willing to put in the work required, you can do a lot worse then WC. If she wants to look "cool" doing Kung-Fu, find a Contemporary WuShu school.

Excellent point and one that is raised quite frequently, that there is a symbiotic relationship that goes on to create an effective fighter which is:

Effective MA + Dilligent Student = effective fighter

This relationship cannot simply be overstated. I once said to someone, if I put money on a fighter, I would be putting it on the one who trains 8 hours a day as opposed to someone who trains 1 hour every other day. As Bruce said "then baby you better train every part of your body"

 

[Flying Crane]

Without proper effort I believe WC acutally IS more worthless then no training. With the proper effort, I also believe WC is one of the more effective systems.

I would go a step further than that and say that this holds true for any martial art.

 

[7starmantis]

Effective MA + Dilligent Student = effective fighter

Hmm....my take=
Effective MA + Dilligent Student + Fighting Time + Effective Teacher = Effective Fighter

Just my opinions,
7sm

 

[ed-swckf]

Hmm....my take=
Effective MA + Dilligent Student + Fighting Time + Effective Teacher = Effective Fighter

Just my opinions,
7sm

Yeah thats a little more comprehensive for sure but i think everyone is on the same page in regards to it definitely not being about one element of the equation.

 

[bcbernam777]

Hmm....my take=
Effective MA + Dilligent Student + Fighting Time + Effective Teacher = Effective Fighter

Just my opinions,
7sm

There I go over simplyfying again

 

[dmax999]

I would go a step further than that and say that this holds true for any martial art.

While true enough, I think it holds even greater for WC then any other. I would pity the person who tried using WC who was bad at it. WC puts you in awkward positions and when done improperly can really get you beat badly and quickly.

Non MA people are used to Western Boxing, the Karate Kid, and so on. Many MAs fight in a similar fashion where the basics can be figured out and done to some degree. Americans are not used to seeing WC used for fighting, and unless you actually are good at it, I think you are making defending yourself way harder by trying it.

 

[Flying Crane]

While true enough, I think it holds even greater for WC then any other.

Oh, I dunno man... bad capoeira is REALLY bad!! heh heh

 

[brothershaw]

While true enough, I think it holds even greater for WC then any other. I would pity the person who tried using WC who was bad at it. WC puts you in awkward positions and when done improperly can really get you beat badly and quickly.

Non MA people are used to Western Boxing, the Karate Kid, and so on. Many MAs fight in a similar fashion where the basics can be figured out and done to some degree. Americans are not used to seeing WC used for fighting, and unless you actually are good at it, I think you are making defending yourself way harder by trying it.

To a certain degree dmax has a point, trying to use the positions, strikes etc without good training you probably are doomed, however using the theories you are actually ahead of the game.
Is wing chun the best for women? That depends on how much time they want to put in.