Would Martial Arts created by women fundamentally be better than those created by men?

[Flying Crane]

A female master and style founder? Popular legend has it that in the late 1600's, Shaolin Monk Fist master Fang Zhonggong moved south to Fuzhou and raised and taught his daughter, Qiniang. After her father was killed, she developed the White Crane style. From her > Zeng Chisu > Wang Faodang > Lin Shixian > Pan Yuba > Ryuru Ko, who was one of Higashionna Kanryo's teachers, who, in turn taught Goju's founder, Miyagi Chojun.

Note - Pan Yuba or Ryuru Ko put their own touch on White Crane and thereafter taught "Whooping" Crane. Regardless, modern karate owes much of its origins to the style.

Did Fang Qinang actually exist and become the founder of White Crane? There seems to be historical record of those who carried on her early lineage. True, there is always historical fog, but I see no reason not to go with this story in absence of contradicting evidence and in the name of MA gender diversity.

Calling crane, not whooping crane.

The whooping crane is a specific species of crane, Grus americana, that lives in North America and has never lived in Asia. The Whooping crane gets its name from its particularly loud call. A Chinese method would not have been named Whooping Crane, as they never encountered the species in China. However, it was named Calling crane, after the act of the crane calling out to other cranes.

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Calling crane, not whooping crane.

The whooping crane is a specific species of crane, Grus americana, that lives in North America and has never lived in Asia. The Whooping crane gets its name from its particularly loud call. A Chinese method would not have been named Whooping Crane, as they never encountered the species in China. However, it was named Calling crane, after the act of the crane calling out to other cranes.

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. Back to your regularly scheduled program.

As both "whooping" and "calling" refer to the noise a crane makes, we must give some latitude regarding Chinese-English translation.

There are multiple and varied references on both internet and in books to what has been translated in English as "Whooping Crane" kung fu, despite your ornithological sensibilities.

More importantly, it appears that "Calling Crane" is a separate incarnation of White Crane as my quick Google search turned up a separate lineage path for it from the one I detailed, and both Calling and Whooping exist(ed) as individual entities.

A side by side demo of these two styles would be quite a cacophony, and have much in common with contemporary music.

 

[Flying Crane]

As both "whooping" and "calling" refer to the noise a crane makes, we must give some latitude regarding Chinese-English translation.

There are multiple and varied references on both internet and in books to what has been translated in English as "Whooping Crane" kung fu, despite your ornithological sensibilities.

More importantly, it appears that "Calling Crane" is a separate incarnation of White Crane as my quick Google search turned up a separate lineage path for it from the one I detailed, and both Calling and Whooping exist(ed) as individual entities.

A side by side demo of these two styles would be quite a cacophony, and have much in common with contemporary music.

I believe it is simply a mis-translation into English. It is understandable. But since Whooping crane refers to a specific species that would never have been encountered in China, we must recognize the mis-translation for what it is, even if there are more than one system that has identified itself as Calling crane. Or even Shouting crane.

In a similar fashion, a Chinese martial art would not have been named Rattlesnake style. While snake kung fu does exist, the rattlesnake does not exist in China and the Chinese would have never encountered it prior to immigrating to North America.

 

[Oily Dragon]

This kind of crazy Crane business is always best settled by examining the hanzi.

A teacher and I were discussing whether something was "singing" or "screaming" crane the other day while discussing Wing Chun lineages.

When in doubt you just bust out the old manuals that don't need the English.

 

[Flying Crane]

This kind of crazy Crane business is always best settled by examining the hanzi.

A teacher and I were discussing whether something was "singing" or "screaming" crane the other day while discussing Wing Chun lineages.

When in doubt you just bust out the old manuals that don't need the English.

When dealing with the original language, that will always be the most accurate. When translating into another language, a choice is made as to what term is most accurate and captures the spiritual of the original. Technically, the term Whooping does capture the meaning, but it is a poor choice for the translation because of its specific assignment to a species native to North America and absent from Asia. It implies that the style was based on the behavior of that specific crane species. In that case, a different term is a better translation. Nothing about the original Chinese term demands that the term Whooping be used in English. It is the job of the translator to make an appropriate decision.

The leopard is one of the five animals in Chinese martial arts. The jaguar and cougar are not, and are not resident in Asia. It would be a lazy and poor translation to slip in Jaguar or Cougar instead of Leopard, and I warrant most people familiar with Chinese martial arts would point out a correction if someone used it here in the forums.

In Tibetan White crane, the creation story says that a crane fought with a “mountain ape”. One telling that I saw on a website specified that it was an ape and not a monkey, as apes are bigger and this is more impressive that a crane fought it off. The problem is, there are no apes that live in Tibet or anywhere near. Apes and monkeys are not the same thing. Apes do not have tails, and include gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans, and the lesser apes that are gibbons and siamangs. None of these are native to Tibet. However, the Tibetan Macaque, Macaca thibetana, is a large monkey and is the largest of the macaque species and does live in the region, representing a dangerous and powerful predator of bird eggs and a likely candidate for the encounter in the story. I don’t speak or read any of the Chinese languages nor Tibetan. Perhaps the term in those languages does not make a distinction between monkeys and apes. But when translating into another language like English, it is important to capture that accuracy, because the accuracy does exist in the second language.

Hell, I once saw a website that claimed it was a yeti that fought with the crane.

 

[Oily Dragon]

When dealing with the original language, that will always be the most accurate. When translating into another language, a choice is made as to what term is most accurate and captures the spiritual of the original. Technically, the term Whooping does capture the meaning, but it is a poor choice for the translation because of its specific assignment to a species native to North America and absent from Asia. It implies that the style was based on the behavior of that specific crane species. In that case, a different term is a better translation. Nothing about the original Chinese term demands that the term Whooping be used in English. It is the job of the translator to make an appropriate decision.

The leopard is one of the five animals in Chinese martial arts. The jaguar and cougar are not, and are not resident in Asia. It would be a lazy and poor translation to slip in Jaguar or Cougar instead of Leopard, and I warrant most people familiar with Chinese martial arts would point out a correction if someone used it here in the forums.

In Tibetan White crane, the creation story says that a crane fought with a “mountain ape”. One telling that I saw on a website specified that it was an ape and not a monkey, as apes are bigger and this is more impressive that a crane fought it off. The problem is, there are no apes that live in Tibet or anywhere near. Apes and monkeys are not the same thing. Apes do not have tails, and include gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos, orangutans, and the lesser apes that are gibbons and siamangs. None of these are native to Tibet. However, the Tibetan Macaque, Macaca thibetana, is a large monkey and is the largest of the macaque species and does live in the region, representing a dangerous and powerful predator of bird eggs and a likely candidate for the encounter in the story. I don’t speak or read any of the Chinese languages nor Tibetan. Perhaps the term in those languages does not make a distinction between monkeys and apes. But when translating into another language like English, it is important to capture that accuracy, because the accuracy does exist in the second language.

Hell, I once saw a website that claimed it was a yeti that fought with the crane.

Yeti makes total sense. That's definitely a Himalayan beast, real or imaginary.

More like a bear than ape, but the idea of impressive is what matters most. Crane vs. Mountain Bear, sure thing.

How about southern Mantis?? It's a fighting bug, and still it has mastered the secrets of the universe with respect to its place in life.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeti makes total sense. That's definitely a Himalayan beast, real or imaginary.

More like a bear than ape, but the idea of impressive is what matters most. Crane vs. Mountain Bear, sure thing.

How about southern Mantis?? It's a fighting bug, and still it has mastered the secrets of the universe with respect to its place in life.

If we are going all in on taxonomy, then mantids are not bugs as such. The word bug refers to a certain classification of insects, ie bed bugs, assassin bugs, and the like.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yeti makes total sense. That's definitely a Himalayan beast, real or imaginary.

More like a bear than ape, but the idea of impressive is what matters most. Crane vs. Mountain Bear, sure thing.

How about southern Mantis?? It's a fighting bug, and still it has mastered the secrets of the universe with respect to its place in life.

I did not know there was a bear in Tibet. A brief Google search shows that there is a sub-species of brown bear that does live in the region, and is very rarely sighted. It is thought to be a possible source for “yeti” sightings. That is interesting.

I would steer clear of connecting the yeti to the Tibetan white crane origin story. That moves it openly into the realm of myth; I am of the opinion that the story with a macaque and a crane is a legitimate possibility and could be at least partially historically accurate.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I did not know there was a bear in Tibet. A brief Google search shows that there is a sub-species of brown bear that does live in the region, and is very rarely sighted. It is thought to be a possible source for “yeti” sightings. That is interesting.

I would steer clear of connecting the yeti to the Tibetan white crane origin story. That moves it openly into the realm of myth; I am of the opinion that the story with a macaque and a crane is a legitimate possibility and could be at least partially historically accurate.

I can't think of a CMA origin story that doesn't start with myth of some kind.

"Yeti" is literally Tibetan for mountain bear, and it's tied to a lot of Tibetan folklore, so it does make sense that it would be referenced in Tibetan styles somewhere.

Then again, there is also the Tibetan Monkey God, Pha Trelgen Changchup Sempa. Another major contender appears!

 

[Flying Crane]

I can't think of a CMA origin story that doesn't start with myth of some kind.

"Yeti" is literally Tibetan for mountain bear, and it's tied to a lot of Tibetan folklore, so it does make sense that it would be referenced in Tibetan styles somewhere.

Then again, there is also the Tibetan Monkey God, Pha Trelgen Changchup Sempa. Another major contender appears!

View attachment 28419

There is certainly a fair bit of likely myth in Chinese martial arts origin stories. I certainly don’t speak Tibetan, but it seems possible that yeti is a term meant for the rare local subspecies of brown bear, and that it took the West some time to make the connection. At the same time, in the common use it is still meant as the legendary humanoid of myth, possibly related to the Abominable Snowman and North America’s Big Foot.

In my opinion, the Tibetan Macaque seems the most likely candidate in the Tibetan Crane story. I believe it is genuinely possible that a lama witnessed that conflict and was able to develop a new approach to training, from insights gained from that experience.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

There is certainly a fair bit of likely myth in Chinese martial arts origin stories. I certainly don’t speak Tibetan, but it seems possible that yeti is a term meant for the rare local subspecies of brown bear, and that it took the West some time to make the connection. At the same time, in the common use it is still meant as the legendary humanoid of myth, possibly related to the Abominable Snowman and North America’s Big Foot.

In my opinion, the Tibetan Macaque seems the most likely candidate in the Tibetan Crane story. I believe it is genuinely possible that a lama witnessed that conflict and was able to develop a new approach to training, from insights gained from that experience.

I have lots of macaque experience, I dare anyone to try their martial arts prowess on even a smaller macaque species. They are fearsome opponents when they turn on you. I knew a crab eater macaque named Frodo who was an absolute terror to everyone in the facility except his keeper. He was able to untwist chain link and escape several times. Each escape was a new crazed criminal style jailbreak in which he raided the office or the animal kitchen and evaded multiple attempts at recapturing him. Just check out the dentition. If that doesn’t scare you, consider that he has 4 hands which he can bring to bear whilst chewing you. It would be a large and determined crane to contend with him. I’m thinking something akin to a cassowary would be more of an even match but those don’t live in Tibet either.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have lots of macaque experience, I dare anyone to try their martial arts prowess on even a smaller macaque species. They are fearsome opponents when they turn on you. I knew a crab eater macaque named Frodo who was an absolute terror to everyone in the facility except his keeper. He was able to untwist chain link and escape several times. Each escape was a new crazed criminal style jailbreak in which he raided the office or the animal kitchen and evaded multiple attempts at recapturing him. Just check out the dentition. If that doesn’t scare you, consider that he has 4 hands which he can bring to bear whilst chewing you. It would be a large and determined crane to contend with him. I’m thinking something akin to a cassowary would be more of an even match but those don’t live in Tibet either.

Oh yeah, macaques are fierce, no doubt! Any monkey can tear you up if it takes it into its head.

Our creation story tells us that the crane ultimately thrust his beak into the macaque’s eye and drove it off. The lama tracked down the macaque and healed it, and kept it as a pet for further study. I have found references in materials not connected to martial arts, that even in the modern day these macaques are sometimes kept as pets in Tibet. The reference that I found said that it was kept chained in the yard, was not a house pet. But apparently it is still done, lending some more credibility to the story.

 

[Oily Dragon]

There is certainly a fair bit of likely myth in Chinese martial arts origin stories. I certainly don’t speak Tibetan, but it seems possible that yeti is a term meant for the rare local subspecies of brown bear, and that it took the West some time to make the connection. At the same time, in the common use it is still meant as the legendary humanoid of myth, possibly related to the Abominable Snowman and North America’s Big Foot.

In my opinion, the Tibetan Macaque seems the most likely candidate in the Tibetan Crane story. I believe it is genuinely possible that a lama witnessed that conflict and was able to develop a new approach to training, from insights gained from that experience.

The Monkey is the origin myth of all Tibetan stories. I'm not sure if the monkey in the Tibetan lore is macaque but it makes sense.

It's Avalokitesvara's monkey, it gets lured by sort of succubus into a devil's bargain, ends up having 6 little monkey children instead of demons destroying the earth.

Then their 6 kids proliferate, consume, and almost destroy the earth anyway, but the Monkey invents farming so he can feed all the monkeys , and they turned into us.

Mt. Gongpori and the Monkey Cave, Nyingchi, Tibet

There is a legend descended from Tibetan generations about their origin. As the legend tells, Avalokitesvara, a monkey and a Raksasi were separately living on the three hills of a mountain.

www.tibettrip.com

 

[Flying Crane]

I have lots of macaque experience, I dare anyone to try their martial arts prowess on even a smaller macaque species. They are fearsome opponents when they turn on you. I knew a crab eater macaque named Frodo who was an absolute terror to everyone in the facility except his keeper. He was able to untwist chain link and escape several times. Each escape was a new crazed criminal style jailbreak in which he raided the office or the animal kitchen and evaded multiple attempts at recapturing him. Just check out the dentition. If that doesn’t scare you, consider that he has 4 hands which he can bring to bear whilst chewing you. It would be a large and determined crane to contend with him. I’m thinking something akin to a cassowary would be more of an even match but those don’t live in Tibet either.

The macaque would be a worthy adversary to be sure, but cranes are pretty tough and fearless fellows as well. The black-necked crane (Grus nigricollis) is native to Tibet and is a medium sized crane, but looking at behavior patterns found among cranes, they will defend the nest with everything they have got. Cranes in Africa have been known to drive off water buffalo that got too close, they spread out the wings to look big, and will charge while flapping the wings, and jump to attack with the talons.

Biologists studying cranes have noted their fierce determination, and the real danger that their talons represent. A Demoiselle crane (Grus virgo), the smallest species, was recorded to have killed a human caretaker by driving its beak through the man’s eye and into his brain. I found this reference in several books on cranes that I unfortunately no longer possess.

 

[Steve]

Yeti makes total sense. That's definitely a Himalayan beast, real or imaginary.

More like a bear than ape, but the idea of impressive is what matters most. Crane vs. Mountain Bear, sure thing.

How about southern Mantis?? It's a fighting bug, and still it has mastered the secrets of the universe with respect to its place in life.

Yeti sounds right. The most believable of all the theories so far, IMO.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You want to look up what we call a fanny.

Going to have to watch what I say after that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Oh yeah, macaques are fierce, no doubt! Any monkey can tear you up if it takes it into its head.

Our creation story tells us that the crane ultimately thrust his beak into the macaque’s eye and drove it off. The lama tracked down the macaque and healed it, and kept it as a pet for further study. I have found references in materials not connected to martial arts, that even in the modern day these macaques are sometimes kept as pets in Tibet. The reference that I found said that it was kept chained in the yard, was not a house pet. But apparently it is still done, lending some more credibility to the story.

I don’t doubt any of that. Crane beak to the eye is certainly scary. I did have a macaque friend as well, his name was Hinzi. His room mate,( er cell mate is more appropriate for context) was named Spock. Spock was exactly the cellmate you would have nightmares about if you were heading to prison. Once I realized this, I made moves to get Hinzi separate housing. I was forever after Hinzi’s hero and friend. Primates do not belong in captivity.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Going to have to watch what I say after that.

Ask an Aussie what team he is rooting for and watch the reaction. Its even more fun than introducing them as an Englishman, or better yet, a Kiwi. Gasp.

 

[clfsean]

I always pictured a Gibbon as being the ape of legend for us. The insanely long arms and shortish legs are kinda similar to us in keep the feet close to the ground but arms fully extended and moving by yiu lik out through the shoulder. Then when I watch videos of Chan Tai San, his arms look unusually long on his frame.

But in reading over the info you shared on the Macaque ... I can see that one being being no nonsense competitor for the origin story much easier. The gibbon is cartoonish and play like compared to the macaque.

 

[Flying Crane]

I always pictured a Gibbon as being the ape of legend for us. The insanely long arms and shortish legs are kinda similar to us in keep the feet close to the ground but arms fully extended and moving by yiu lik out through the shoulder. Then when I watch videos of Chan Tai San, his arms look unusually long on his frame.

But in reading over the info you shared on the Macaque ... I can see that one being being no nonsense competitor for the origin story much easier. The gibbon is cartoonish and play like compared to the macaque.

Yeah, and the gibbon does not live in the region. It is a tropical and subtropical rainforest fellow, not the cold Tibetan high plateau. They are also not very big, and not very functional on the ground. But they kick *** in the trees.

TheTibetan macaque can weigh over forty pounds. That is a big, powerful monkey.