Winning - Important or Irrelevant?

[Monroe]

... but I'd rather be one of the Jamaican bob-sled team members that made it to the Olympics, in a puff of smoke, several years ago.

It's always fun to surprise people.

I want to learn and improve, for exercise and self-defence. But I want to enjoy myself in the process. I'm not enjoying myself when I focus on competition. I find the whole thing distracting. In school I was excused from timed exams (for learning disability). I actually completed exams within the time limits regular exams were done. But taking the timer off helped me focus and I eventually learned how to stop focusing the clock and focus on the questions. By college I didn't sign up for my exemption. I can compete, I can test, I don't enjoy it. I like to win, but the stress kills most of the joy. I'd rather enjoy myself than worry about winning. I already tend to put a lot of pressure on myself and worry too much. I don't need more stress.

 

[Carol]

If you don't believe it is important to win - why do you feel it is important to compete, at all?

Competing is fun!!

That's the main reason....everything else is just gravy. Competing demands more, and offers more than just getting out there. There's the discipline of committing to a schedule, and extra motivation for your workouts. As a racer, I'll be ranked and categorized by age and handicap. I get to see if I improve or not.

The big difference between how I compete and how you compete is that you're in an environment that's very....binary. Whether boxing, judo, muay thai, MMA...one person against another. One winner, one loser. Winner advances to whatever comes next, loser ices their bruises knowing the what comes next is to regroup and retry. I think winning means more in that environment. There is certainly more on the line, and its a lot more personal! I don't even get a chance to meet many people in my age bracket, they are scattered around the country. The sport is dominated by younger people.

I like encouraging people to get out on the slopes and enjoy the gorgeous New England countryside. It saddens me when I see ladies my age, and their participation is mostly watching their kids compete. While I wish there were more 40-somethings out there with me, its kind of cool when some of the parents come talk to me and ask me if I have kids racing, and I say no, its just me out there, and I get a chance to say.you can do this too! Racing isn't just for the young and/or super-fit, there's room on the course for people of all ages and fitness levels.

 

[Cyriacus]

Now Ill actually state My Full Opinion, now that I no longer need to withhold it for the sake of Debate.

Id prefer to Win. Not for the sake of Competition, but because I feel that the WILL to WIN is a Factor in maintaining Control. The same Control thatll let you keep resisting whilst youre being choked by someones Shin, and either get them off with Brute Force, or Fight Back as long as you can manage.

Will to Win, or more accurately, Will to Overcome your Opponent; I consider to be Imperative.
In Martial Arts overall.

Competitions are a bit different.
Competitions are Competitive; And Competitors Compete.
Why wouldnt you want to Win, as a Main Goal? Its not like you dont Spar wherever You Train, anyway.
Competitions are designed especially for that Contrast.

So in Short:
In MA: Will To Overcome Your Opponent.
In Sport Bouts: Will To Win.

 

[Chris Parker]

Kay - perhaps I posted this thread on the wrong section, my bad - but why keep talking about oranges - when the topic is about apples?

I'm posting about the importance of winning at M/A competition, or sports in general - NOT a kill or be killed - battle to the death. There is a BIG difference.

Yes, you are. But just because you started the thread that doesn't mean that you can control the direction it takes, nor does it invalidate my perspective on things. The topic is not apples, they are your reference point.

NOBODY I know trains to fight to the death.

Then consider yourself introduced to someone who does.

 

[elder999]

In the first place, there are more than a few of us who train in bladed "martial arts," or in martial arts that don't have a "competitive sport" aspect-many of us train pretty strictly for "self-defense." Interestingly, though, from my perspective, anyway, winning is the most important thing in this kind of training: a win is when you get to walk away, or, best of all, don't have to strive at all to walk away, because there was no contest to begin with.

However, I'm also pretty competitive-I certainly didn't go on JEOPARDY! looking to lose-I wanted to win :lfao: . That doesn't mean that the experience had no value, either-I fulfilled that part of a lifelong dream, just by making the show.

Likewise, while I had some victories in my competitive martial arts days, I'm no athlete-in fact, I'm something of a congenital klutz. What victories I did have came from lessons learned from much more numerous losses. The competitions themselves were fun, though. These days, most of my competition is in races: marathons, triathlons and ultras. I've never really been much of a runner, though-I have deformed feet, not debilitating or crippling, but not the best for running, and a congenital lung defect which is just starting to become somewhat debilitating at this point in my life. I have no hope of ever winning any race-I might win my age group if the right people don't bother showing up, and I've won when there were Clysedale divisions, that is, divisions for those of us who weigh more than 200 lbs., but I've never placed anywhere near the top 50% of all runners-pretty far from it, in fact. In this instance, "winning" is completely irrelevant. Every race finished, especially at distances longer than a marathon, is a win for me.

 

[Blade96]

about the 2010 olympics, The girl who won in female figure skating singles was a teen from Korea. She was beautiful, but the most memorable one was Joannie Rochette, from my country. Heck, I don't even remember the korean girl's name or even what she looks like. But Rochette is different. Her mom died just as she was going to compete. Must have been so hard for her, but she did it anyway. She won an award for that and being such an inspiration to millions. She got bronze btw.

Shows that gold medalists and the so called 'winners' arent always the best known or most memorable. Winning comes in different forms.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I found with my old kenpo school, those students that competed regularly in tournaments generally did better in class, tested better, advanced faster. They didn't have to be winning students, but the experience they got prepping for and competing in tournament paid dividends for the rest of their martial experience.

Agreed. I've found that those same students - not only do better in class, test better and advance faster - they also make those around them (training partners) better as well (in my experience).

 

[Champ-Pain]

(1) But just because you started the thread that doesn't mean that you can control the direction it takes.



(2) Then consider yourself introduced to someone who does.

(1) Nor will I allow you to do so, either... unless your a MOD, then I have no choice.

(2) OK - Mr. - Ninja/Samurai assassin. Nice to meet you.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Winning comes in different forms.

Agreed!

 

[Cyriacus]

(1) Nor will I allow you to do so, either... unless your a MOD, then I have no choice.

(2) OK - Mr. - Ninja/Samurai assassin. Nice to meet you.

Oh, right. Introducing yourself to People who Train to Kill.

...Wheres MY Introduction?

 

[Carol]

Oh, right. Introducing yourself to People who Train to Kill.

...Wheres MY Introduction?

Cyriacus -- notorious for capital(ization) murder ...
*runs for cover*

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

 

[Cyriacus]

Cyriacus -- notorious for capital(ization) murder ...
*runs for cover*

Sorry...couldn't resist...

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

Huggles?

 

[Blade96]

Agreed!

so nice when we agree xD

 

[Chris Parker]

(1) Nor will I allow you to do so, either... unless your a MOD, then I have no choice.

(2) OK - Mr. - Ninja/Samurai assassin. Nice to meet you.

First off, Angel, I wasn't controlling the conversation, I was providing an alternate view of martial arts for the conversation to go in other directions. Secondly, this isn't MAP, I'd recommend against the passive aggressive taunts. You've already been bounced from how many forums for such behaviour?

Kay? Kay.

 

[Carol]

Huggles?

Huggles

 

[Champ-Pain]

First off, Angel, I wasn't controlling the conversation, I was providing an alternate view of martial arts for the conversation to go in other directions. Secondly, this isn't MAP, I'd recommend against the passive aggressive taunts. You've already been bounced from how many forums for such behaviour?<br>
<br>
Kay? Kay.

Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all.

If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.

 

[Sukerkin]

Gentlemen, it might be better if those unpleasant attitudes got themselves tucked away. Past histories between members on other boards is of no interest to us here at MT unless it becomes a cause of behaviour we'd rather not see.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor

N.B. For the benefit of JC, who might not know, when you see a post by either a Moderator or a Mentor that is 'signed' as above, that means it is an 'official voice' being used as opposed to the more usual 'private voice' that we use when posting our own opinions. From a Mentor it is a strong suggestion rather than the more direct instruction it is from a Moderator but one tends to lead to the other if things do not improve.

 

[Cyriacus]

Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all.

If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.

...You do realise that its you who called him a Warrior Assassin, right?

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry, Mark, just gotta deal with this little one first. My apologies.

Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest. You have NO clue what really transpired behind the scenes. Furthermore, it is you who is getting aggressive and taunting me, unsuccessfully, in all your replies to all my posts. Your "warrior assassin" view of yourself is comical to me - so please don't try to bully me here on MT, or anywhere else, it won't work... and I would recommend that you not come around my neighborhood with all that attitude in your pocket, holding that rather large chip on your shoulder. You may have to walk away with neither, if you walk away, at all.

If I had a problem with a certain member, for whatever reason, as you appear to have with me - I'd ignore their threads & posts, rather than reply negatively to each and every one of them, as you appear to be doing. You don't like me? So you're making it hard for me to like you? Let it go bro - there are far more important things in life to worry about, than the importance or irrelevance of winning, really. YOU WIN! Kay? Kay.

Angel, I'm not "judging" you for anything here or elsewhere other than your behaviour, examples of which are coming through here. I am advising that you check your responces before you end up the same way here than you have in other places. Lecturing me on "attitude" after your posting history is rather rich, though, don't you think? How many threads have you started about your interactions with other members around the place? Hmm, we'll come back to a few aspects of this...

When it comes to my "warrior/assassin" view of myself, uh, where did you get that from? I train in old systems where the aim is to kill the other person, end of story. There is no competitive aspect, both the Uchidachi and Shidachi (attacking and defending partners) are trying to kill each other during the training, if it's being done properly. The attacks are designed to kill, and the responces are the same. If that very part is missing, then the training loses it's value and purpose; there is no concept of winning, nor of losing, aside from the idea of losing your life. It is this very mindset that is the crucible for development in these arts, giving you a psychologically high-stress situation, much higher than in competitive sports. All I have done is to put forth that as an alternative, which you have simply decided doesn't fit what you want the thread to be about, so you've ignored such comments from myself, Mark, and others.

Tell you what, here's an example of the training I'm talking about:

Now, this is an Embu, a public demonstration, the training is a lot scarier, as if you don't move in time, you get smashed in the head, or get your fingers broken by a solid lump of oak... and the aim is to have it miss you by as little distance and time as possible - but the point here is that this is martial arts training, and in this "winning" is completely irrelevant.

And, if we look at your original post, we see that that's all you really asked about:

I'm always accussed of being over-competitive. I may very well be - I love nothing more than to win, at anything and everything I do. For me, there is no greater feeling in the world than winning, being best, victorious, champion.

Do you believe that winning is important or irrelevant? - Please explain your position. Thanks in advance

You know, that's all I did... I said that, in martial arts training, not competition, it's thoroughly irrelevant, and I explained my position. Your responce was basically "that's not what I'm talking about, so it's irrelevant". My point was that your perspective is rather limited when it comes to martial arts, and the variety that's out there, as well as the variety of reasons that people train, which is evidenced by your posts, so I was providing you with a broader viewpoint. You do get that that's how these discussions work, yeah?

But, of course, it's not just with me. Mark (Sukerkin) made similar comments, and your responce was to dismiss his comments as well:

From the standpoint of Japanese arts, particularly armed ones, winning or losing truly are irrelevant. To consider either of them is to lose mushin.

OK - I understand. Maybe you don't, so I'll say it again.

I'm talking about "SPORTS" winning - none of which is intended to be played / fought to the death.

I gave what I thought to be a great and valid point on winning, bringing a region together (blah-blah-blah), when all else has failed. I guess you don't believe that's ever happened before - I'm making it up?

It's these passive aggressive methods that I'm cautioning you against, Angel. MT is far more stringently moderated than MAP, or other forums, so be careful what you say and how you say it.

Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.

When it comes to controlling the discussion or not, you have tried to do that multiple times, including the above comments to Mark, the same ones to myself, and the following to Bill Mattocks. That is you trying to control the discussion, rather than allow it to move into areas that you are not so versed in, or that could possibly contradict or challenge your take on things. Not the sign of a truly confident person, I must say.

You are obviously a man of principle, no doubt. Keep in mind, I'm only talking about sports winning - nothing else.

I thank and commend you for your service to this great country we live in. It's folks like yourself that make it so great to begin with.

That is you trying to control the discussion, rather than allow it to move into areas that you are not so versed in, or that could possibly contradict or challenge your take on things. Not the sign of a truly confident person, I must say.

Now, I'm thinking. Are those who say it is not important, doing so because they've never been good at competition? - Perhaps it's the, how can something I'm not very good at be important to me, mentality? Maybe fear of the unknown and/or failure, so I won't even compete, to keep myself from failing? I don't know, but sometimes it seems as though, the folks saying that "winning is unimportant" - probably didn't win very often, some may have never won at all.

I'm just saying that those who are on top of whatever world they sit on - will almost always be competitive, proud and often times loud - with few exceptions... and will do whatever possible to win. On the other hand, those who are not very good at sports, whatever sport it may be they participate in, and rarely, if ever, find themselves on a podium receiving an award - will almost always deny the importance of winning (in sport) - with very few exceptions... and in fact, will often avoid competition altogether.

What does that say to you?

When it comes to the above, all it shows is a very shallow take on personal values. I was very good at the competitive side of things, but have no interest in it at all. The implication that it's sour grapes on the part of anyone who isn't good at sports is childish, frankly. You're basically saying that if people don't agree with you, then that just means they couldn't "cut it" in your world... but we'll get to your world in a little bit.

Maybe runners don't trash talk - but just about every top athlete in sports that I'm interested in viewing, do it... in football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, boxing, MMA, UFC, etc. Most brag, many trash talk - it's part of the game - to create interest and bigger audiences on PPV.

BTW: Does Zola Bud and Mary Decker bring back any memories? Lots of trash talking before and after the Olympic race took place... a race that neither of the two won.

In M/A - amateur or pro - winning is important... perhaps more so than in other sports. You win, you get to fight in bigger events, make money, get ads & commercials, become a movie star, etc, etc.

Honestly, I think the biggest clue to your take on things (and your personality here) was in the post on why you value winning... you basically said in four different ways "it feeds my ego". That then comes through in your entire posting style, essentially that if it's not something you're interested in, or something that fits what you want things to be, the discussion to be, or similar, it's not wanted here. Again, not the sign of a confident personality.

Muhamad Ali was the BIGGEST bragger, most cocky & arrogant athlete that ever lived - yet he has always been one of the most beloved, popular and admired athlete, of all time, through out the whole world. just saying

On a different note: I spoke to my young students about this subject, and asked their opinion. Every single one of them (36) said winning is very important to them. Many of them laughed at me - when I presented them with the opposite scenario (irrelevant) - almost to the point of ridicule, for having done so. These are all children between 5 and 8 y/o.

I went as far as to say that it's not about winning, it's about enjoying what you are doing and having fun at it. Their reply... How can you enjoy and have fun - if you don't win? I tend to agree.

Right, "your world". There are a range of threads elsewhere that I could link, but the important thing to recognise here is that you teach kids, teens at the most. Kids are highly malleable, and it's hardly surprising that, given your views, and the way you have treated the kids, that they'd come back with the type of thing that you are saying yourself. You taught them, didn't you? I'd be surprised if the kids you taught didn't come back with a reflection of your values... that's kinda what Mark was getting at earlier when he mentioned the Kobra Kai Dojo (that's a Karate Kid reference, the original, by the way) in the post you referred to as "a lot of rumbling". Essentially, a highly aggressive, and psychologically damaged and damaging instructor guides his students with the mantra "STRIKE FIRST, STRIKE HARD, NO MERCY SIR!!", along with teachings like "We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition: A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy." and "Fear does not exist in this dojo, does it?... Pain does not exist in this dojo, does it?.... DEFEAT does not exist in this dojo, does it?" "NO SENSEI!!!"

Basically, the lesson is that the instructor was consumed by this win-at-all-costs attitude, and he was dragging his students down with him, leading them to be aggressive thugs and bullies. They followed the Sensei's lead, good or bad. And when it comes to yourself, there are a range of less-than impressive credentials that you have put around the place, with you essentially living vicariously through the victories of the 6, 7, and 8 year old kids that you put in competitions... so how important is winning to you, if you don't compete yourself?

Why? My opinion may not be agreed with, by many - but my arguement does have some real merit and valid points. Although not many members of MT agree with my point of view, I assure you, there are many others who do.

BTW: Nothing I've posted is false or made up - and none of it has been shown to be incorrect...

Hmm, nothing false? Are you sure about that?

Don't judge me for what happened at other forums - I quit them, rather than getting fired, as you suggest.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97850

I've been banned at other forums (more than one) for unknown reasons, NO explanation or motive that I can think of... sometimes I was attacked and gangged up on repeatedly by members who did not agree with my views, opinions or ways, often the mods would join in and harrass me as well... and then BAN me.

And that's not getting into the whole "I haven't tried to control the discussion" thing.

Seriously, Angel, my main point is simple. When someone comes in with a perspective or opinion that is contrary to yours, or challenging to yours, take the time to learn and listen, rather than just dismiss it out of hand. And cool that ego, it's doing you no favours.

 

[Champ-Pain]

It appears that I'm saying one thing and you are hearing something else - and taking my comments out of context. I'll let it go. Ego cooled - I'm moving on. Thanks