Would you rather win at all costs? Or win correctly?

[drop bear]

It also makes you look cool, hence it's a winning strategy

WWTFD

What would the Fonz do?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is taught (somewhat) in Musashi's school.

"When I turned 30, I looked back on my past victories and saw that I had won not because of superior skill but because my opponents' strategies were lacking. From then on, I pursued the true way... To rely on solely on technique is shallow; the true way is in understanding and perception.”

Having said that, it was a different time when winning meant not dying.

It's a personal question as well - reveals a lot about someone's martial philosophy. What if someone considered winning at all costs was indeed the correct way to win?

There's honour and code to respect, but what's the cost? What's the scenario? Does the cost justify the means and if so/not, it is still considered "correct"?

Interesting topic nonetheless.

My favorite Musashi quote.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

WWTFD

What would the Fonz do?

You are the Fonz, the Fonz is all around us.

 

[isshinryuronin]

To rely on solely on technique is shallow;

I agree with this quote to a certain degree. But like the saying, "Money won't buy happiness" is usually said by someone who is rich, I think Musashi can say this as his technique was very deep. Having plumbed the depths of physical technique, he then concentrated on the metaphysical.

 

[Haruhiko]

Winning because your opponent is lacking in knowledge is not the same as winning because you’re better.

I agree with this quote to a certain degree. But like the saying, "Money won't buy happiness" is usually said by someone who is rich, I think Musashi can say this as his technique was very deep. Having plumbed the depths of physical technique, he then concentrated on the metaphysical.

That's a good point, actually.

He had the fortune of being an exceptionally gifted swordsman, the experience of large scale warfare, but also the upbringing under a master of two schools, Tori Ryū from his father and his grandfather's Enmei Ryū. He was also an early literate, compared to others his age, from the age of at least 8 because he was living in a temple at that stage.

Throw in sixty duels, constant travel, and a proclivity to appreciate and practise other refined non-martial arts, I believe he had reached a state of "what next?"/enlightenment.

It's through that he does away with worldly technique and meditates on the mind and strategy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To rely on solely on technique is shallow; the true way is in understanding and perception.”

Old saying said, "Everythging has counters. Only extreme speed and extreme power will have no counters".

If you have speed and power, your punch combo (technique) such as jab-cross-hook-uppercut should have no problem to knock your opponent down.

 

[HighKick]

You are referring to rules bound competition, so there will always be a degree or parity, or at least several control mechanisms so that you cannot 'win at all costs'.

It is hard to compare the competition environment to most real-world fighting situations. When I was young, me and my 'crew' regularly got into bar fights. It was a rite of passage. Understand, it was in a time when there was some degree of honor to most fights, and you seldom had to worry about a knife, much less a gun being drawn on you. That said, you never knew the other persons 'fighting style', real intent, or how far they were willing to take the fight, so you were wise to always be on-guard.

When I was a LEO, you would measure up an assailant through previous encounters, observation and conversation as much as possible before going hands-on. At that point, my intention was to get the cuffs on and get them in the back of the patrol car as fast as I could, ideally before they could fully process what was going on and have their emotions amp up. Believe me when I say this makes a Huge difference, especially when a person is altered by booze, drugs, or otherwise.
I am a smaller guy (I competed at lightweight in WT). If I was dealing with a big(er) guy and I was on my own, one of my goto's was to do literally jump on their back and ride them in a rear naked choke until they started going out. I was darn good at it and never got thrown. Smashed into a wall or car? Yes, but never let go. Like I said earlier, it was a different time before phone cameras, and you could be (much) more physical. We were a smallish town, so it was not uncommon to be on the road by yourself. You had to learn and be willing to take care of yourself, and pulling your firearm was not your first move. No, we did not have tasers so you learned to do what you had to within the law. A very different mindset from you OP.

I say all this to say, off the mat, there was/is a 'win at all cost' mindset that could save your life. On the mat, unless it was clearly an overwhelmingly out-matched opponent, within the rules, I was going to make sure I would win, if at all possible.

To be Very clear, I never relished in humiliating my opponent.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For me, the perfect victory is when the opponent knows what technique/submissions I am looking to execute, and do their best to fight against, but my technique or execution is too good for them to do anything about it.

This is definitely not a striking mentality.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I recently had a thought sparked by my favourite work of fiction, Baki. I’ve watched the original anime, and watched the modern adaption on the alter arcs of the Manga numerous times. I think i’ve easily rewatched it over 5 times now. I love the fighting scenes, the presentation of different martial arts and their history, and the clashes of different ideologies when two characters duke it out.

Recently in the mangas, a fight has been brewing between two main characters who are completely different in every way. Especially in ideology. One of them believes that a fighter should seek to win every encounter at all costs. In contrast, the other believes that a fight should be won in a manner that is fair to the opponent.

I have always had the latter mindset. To me, a victory in a match, or rolling, in jiujitsu has to be earned correctly, so that there is no room for doubt. I don’t like it when I tap my sparring partner out because I surprised him with a certain submission or move they haven’t experienced before. I remember being in this exact situation when I placed a sparring partner of higher rank than me into a Goth lock (An Americana lock using your legs from the Scarf Hold/Kesa Gatame position). He had never experienced it before and was so surprised that he barely got time to tap to it. It was one of my first times ever tapping him, and he tapped me multiple times almost every time we sparred, but this felt so hollow to me.

I don’t like taking my opponents by surprise. I don’t like winning by points in competition, and I don’t like using moves that are considered “biffy” (over reliant on strength) or “dick” moves. For me, the perfect victory is when the opponent knows what technique/submissions I am looking to execute, and do their best to fight against, but my technique or execution is too good for them to do anything about it.

I find it very important to my identity and being to be as moral and honourable as possible. It’s a core part of me. I think I just internalised the traits of many stoic characters in fiction as I grew up, and associated with the masculine ideal; my favourite example of this is probably Ned Stark, but others include Aragorn, The Predators, Obi Wan Kenobi, Thrall, The Bloodhoofs etc.

What mindset is more beneficial to a competitive athlete or fighter? What about to a martial artist? And what mindset do you hold?

Don't romanticise your martial arts skills. Leave things like that to the movies. This is especially important if you compete. It's not your fault or concern if your opponent cannot figure out your strategy, tactics and skill sets. Maybe your opponent should train harder or train better? Or maybe your opponent should not underestimate you?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

To be Very clear, I never relished in humiliating my opponent.

I had a friend growing up that would whip it out and pee on a defeated opponent. He did it it once at a football game behind the bleachers while a crowd watched. He never started fights but never turned one down either. Not a big guy, but definitely able to get down. I saw him pee on people at least 3 times. I would never do such a thing, I’m not even capable of that stunt. It used to bother me that he would go that far.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

WWTFD

What would the Fonz do?

Wear a lot of leather and avoid directly answering questions about his sexuality?
Wait, that's not right...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There seems to be some confusion regarding different contexts here ...

In a "real" (non-sportive) fight, the key is to win as efficiently and safely as possible using whatever means are legally and morally justifiable in the context. Ivan's ideas about the best way to win really don't apply here in any sense that I can think of.

In a sportive competition, it's okay to have personal preferences about how you win. (For example, by submission rather than points.) But morals and honor really only come into play in the sense of following the letter of the rules, following the spirit of the rules, being respectful towards your opponent, and watching out for the safety of your opponent. There's certainly nothing dishonorable about catching an opponent with a move they haven't seen or winning on points.

Where Ivan is on to something is in sparring for the purpose of learning and improving. If I catch a sparring partner with a technique they've never seen, that doesn't necessarily mean that I've mastered the technique or even that I did it all that well. It might be just dumb luck that they blundered into a danger that they didn't know existed. It's certainly not dishonorable or immoral for me to catch them with a move they don't know. But since my goal is to improve my skill as much as possible, I don't want to rely on that. So after I catch someone with a surprise move, I like to show them how the move works and how to counter it. That way the next time I try the technique on them I will have to set it up and execute it with a higher degree of precision. If your opponent knows the moves you are going to use and they know the counters and you can still pull it off while they try to stop you, then you know you have a certain degree of mastery in what you are doing.

 

[HighKick]

I had a friend growing up that would whip it out and pee on a defeated opponent. He did it it once at a football game behind the bleachers while a crowd watched. He never started fights but never turned one down either. Not a big guy, but definitely able to get down. I saw him pee on people at least 3 times. I would never do such a thing, I’m not even capable of that stunt. It used to bother me that he would go that far.

He would not have been my friend. That is truly a d**k move. No honor in that at all.

 

[HighKick]

There seems to be some confusion regarding different contexts here ...

In a "real" (non-sportive) fight, the key is to win as efficiently and safely as possible using whatever means are legally and morally justifiable in the context. Ivan's ideas about the best way to win really don't apply here in any sense that I can think of.

In a sportive competition, it's okay to have personal preferences about how you win. (For example, by submission rather than points.) But morals and honor really only come into play in the sense of following the letter of the rules, following the spirit of the rules, being respectful towards your opponent, and watching out for the safety of your opponent. There's certainly nothing dishonorable about catching an opponent with a move they haven't seen or winning on points.

Where Ivan is on to something is in sparring for the purpose of learning and improving. If I catch a sparring partner with a technique they've never seen, that doesn't necessarily mean that I've mastered the technique or even that I did it all that well. It might be just dumb luck that they blundered into a danger that they didn't know existed. It's certainly not dishonorable or immoral for me to catch them with a move they don't know. But since my goal is to improve my skill as much as possible, I don't want to rely on that. So after I catch someone with a surprise move, I like to show them how the move works and how to counter it. That way the next time I try the technique on them I will have to set it up and execute it with a higher degree of precision. If your opponent knows the moves you are going to use and they know the counters and you can still pull it off while they try to stop you, then you know you have a certain degree of mastery in what you are doing.

That is a very honorable approach.