Winning - Important or Irrelevant?

[Chris Parker]

?? You are comparing me to the Sensei from Cobra Kai? :BSmeter:

Do my many attempts of correcting my OP, by adding that exactly, in later posts, not count? Several times I posted "competition" winning - NOT kill or be killed in a battle to the death. Yet, those who train to kill, couldn't accept that.

Are you serious, Angel? That's one hell of an edit, compared to what turned up in my email notification there.... and you've come back three and a half weeks later to answer this way? Hmm.

Tell you what, to answer these two smaller posts, the answers are yes, we are (I might note that in your original reply you directed that question at me, although I wasn't the one who made the comparison, as I explained it when you said you didn't get the reference), and secondly, no, that doesn't count. You started a thread, cool, but if it didn't go to exactly what you wanted it to be, telling people that their answers were irrelevant is not a mature response, no matter what you wanted the conversation to be, people did exactly what you asked, which is explain their position and why. You basically said that anyone who wasn't interested in winning must be bad at sports and a loser, and when people such as myself said we don't train in competitive arts, you told us that our opinions were irrelevant.

In terms of you being John Kreese, do you need me to link threads where you talk about demoting 7 and 8 year old kids because of them getting upset at a tournament, crying and walking off? Do you need me to go to threads where you complain about the ungratefulness of students who want to train under someone else? Really?

I do want to address a couple of things in the original reply, though:

I train in old systems where the aim is to kill the other person, end of story. There is no competitive aspect, both the Uchidachi and Shidachi (attacking and defending partners) are trying to kill each other during the training, if it's being done properly. The attacks are designed to kill, and the responces are the same. If that very part is missing, then the training loses it's value and purpose; there is no concept of winning, nor of losing, aside from the idea of losing your life.

Killing the other person is murder, and punishable by long jail terms or death. Ill advised.

You really don't get what I'm talking about, do you?

Now, this is an Embu, a public demonstration, the training is a lot scarier, as if you don't move in time, you get smashed in the head, or get your fingers broken by a solid lump of oak... and the aim is to have it miss you by as little distance and time as possible - but the point here is that this is martial arts training, and in this "winning" is completely irrelevant.

I disagree. The guy getting smashed on the head and getting his fingers broken is clearly the loser. The guy swinging the solid lump of oak is definitely the winner.

No, that's a complete misreading of the situation. For one thing, you're equating being hit or injured with losing, which is not the case at all in this training. So there is no loser or winner here, and if you think there are, you don't get martial arts training.

It's these passive aggressive methods that I'm cautioning you against, Angel. MT is far more stringently moderated than MAP, or other forums, so be careful what you say and how you say it.

Why? Is there no free speech on MT, or is this communism?

No, we just don't put up with as much as others do. Tread carefully, Angel. Free speech doesn't mean you can dictate what people can reply, you know... (oh, irony....)

 

[Champ-Pain]

Chris: I edited post 154, not because I wanted to, but because my internet went down, while typing my reply. By the time I got service again - it appeared that the entire post had been messed up and I didn't want to take another hour retyping it again.


You brought up two members names (MODS) - Which I will not mention. One has never complained about any of my replies to him. I don't see why you feel you have to answer for him. The other is the founder, which I did nothing but compliment him, even after he called me a troll. Again, I don't see why you feel the need to reply for him, either. They both seem like they have the ability to reply for themselves.

I believe winning is important, at all levels. You believe it is irrelevant. We very strongly disagree with each other - and nothing you say will change my opinion. Furthermore, in my opinion, you are just taking advantage of your "high and mighty" position here on MT - knowing full well that you have all the backup in the world, to attack me, without repercaution of any kind. Unfortunately, I don't have your status, and I will be penalized, or worse, banned, for the slightest little things I say, if not in accordance with the mods liking. You question my competence, confidense, and God knows what else... on the internet, NOT to my face. I suppose that makes you a very brave man, in your own eyes. I see you more like a coward, in mine.

With all the respect in the planet, I will continue to defend myself against your attacks on me - regardless who likes it and who doesn't - regardless of the final outcome, whatever it may be.

 

[Jenna]

Can I ask Sir, of the young boys and girls whom you train, maybe they train hard, maybe they put in every effort in competition and yet they lose in a bout or match. How do you react then? If you have pinned your system on winning "at all cost - regardless of the pricetag" then how do you persuade them that just because they have lost that they are NOT losers? Would that eventuality not force to you into hypocracy? Would you tell them that it is ok to lose if they have tried their best? I am just wondering how you deal with such young ones? When you indoctrinate them with the message that they must win at all cost, what happens when they lose?

For what it is worth, I applaud you for working with such young students who need guidance and role models. I just worry about the force with which you deploy your core message.

 

[Carol]

Personally I don't give a flip about drama on other boards, I wanna talk about winning here!

Champ, if you don't mind, your sig caught my eye as well especially where you work with kids. What does winning at all cost regardless of the pricetag mean to you? If I were a parent and my child had (say) an important project due in the morning at school that wasn't quite done, I'd want him doing his homework before he goes to train. I personally wouldn't believe that not doing homework, or not attending school, or not doing their part with family so they can instead shirk responsibilities and train is an acceptable price tag. But...that's me. What do you think?

 

[Sukerkin]

<snip several lines of testosterone>

With all the respect in the planet, I will continue to defend myself against your attacks on me - regardless who likes it and who doesn't - regardless of the final outcome, whatever it may be.

CP, whilst you might not have a care, you are on both a slippery slope and a losing wicket with that line.

You have a right to your views and you can 'speak' them to whoever will listen and where-ever you want. But just be aware of the most pertinent fact that Free Speach is an ideal that has limits when it comes to internet fora.

For the record, the more you type, the more I do hear the cry of "Kobra Kai!!!!" echoing down the years. So that might tell you that, unless such irony is your aim, you are failing to get your message across in a meaningful sense.

 

[Sukerkin]

Oh and that Enter the Dojo sketch series is wonderful - I chortled most heartily .

 

[Champ-Pain]

Can I ask Sir, of the young boys and girls whom you train, maybe they train hard, maybe they put in every effort in competition and yet they lose in a bout or match. How do you react then? If you have pinned your system on winning "at all cost - regardless of the pricetag" then how do you persuade them that just because they have lost that they are NOT losers? Would that eventuality not force to you into hypocracy? Would you tell them that it is ok to lose if they have tried their best? I am just wondering how you deal with such young ones? When you indoctrinate them with the message that they must win at all cost, what happens when they lose?

For what it is worth, I applaud you for working with such young students who need guidance and role models. I just worry about the force with which you deploy your core message.

I would obviously like for all my students to win all their matches, but that is completely unrealistic. When my students put out a good effort and still lose a match - I high five them, hug them and I tell them "great job - we'll get'em next time".

My signature is just a silly little quote - no more, no less. Most everyone has one - no big deal. I don't really live my life in accordence to "Win at all cost - Regardless of the pricetag". If you'd like, I'll change it, just for you. Please, let me know what you'd like it to be.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Personally I don't give a flip about drama on other boards, I wanna talk about winning here!

Champ, if you don't mind, your sig caught my eye as well especially where you work with kids. What does winning at all cost regardless of the pricetag mean to you? If I were a parent and my child had (say) an important project due in the morning at school that wasn't quite done, I'd want him doing his homework before he goes to train. I personally wouldn't believe that not doing homework, or not attending school, or not doing their part with family so they can instead shirk responsibilities and train is an acceptable price tag. But...that's me. What do you think?

I agree. School is much more important. I ask my students how they are doing in school, on a regular basis... it's important to me, how they do.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
The Mod Team does it's level best not to take sides. As a general rule, we avoid moderating threads where we are involved. That said -- EVERYONE must follow the rules. Bob Hubbard has even received infractions and been suspended...

If you feel that you have been attacked unfairly, in violation of the rules -- please use the RTM button. It's a triangular logo, with an exclamation point inside, at the bottom of each post. Submitting a report generates notice to all Staff. We review the report, and take appropriate action. We rarely disclose the action taken against a particular user publicly.

Personal attacks are against the rules. However, everyone is responsible for what they say, and what they say may be addressed and challenged by others. Just like a conversation at a bar or party, what you're saying to one person may be "overheard" and others may join in the discussion, bringing different points of view and ideas. If you want a private conversation with someone -- use the PM system.

Let's all play nice, and we can all learn something from each other.

 

[Jenna]

I would obviously like for all my students to win all their matches, but that is completely unrealistic. When my students put out a good effort and still lose a match - I high five them, hug them and I tell them "great job - we'll get'em next time".

My signature is just a silly little quote - no more, no less. Most everyone has one - no big deal. I don't really live my life in accordence to "Win at all cost - Regardless of the pricetag". If you'd like, I'll change it, just for you. Please, let me know what you'd like it to be.

If you are saying that the win at all costs is just a strapline then I have no issue at all and again only wish to encourage you to likewise encourage the young students under your care. I like your trailer video btw, it is professionally done.

As to your original question: winning, is it important or irrelevant? I think it is both. And neither.

I do not agree that it is the aim of all competitors is to win (though I am quite ok if my view is not shared universally). I say that the goal of all competitors should be to COMPETE to the very best of their ability. Yes! if they are better than everyone else then they WILL win. However, if there is someone better than they (and they are not afraid of disappointing you or their parents), then they will at least be able to leave with a sense of pride in having given their very best effort. In my mind, there is no defeat in that.

I do not like the idea that there can only be one winner or only one way to win. And if you needed concrete proof, well here it is

[yt]J-GkwIRbLw8[/yt]

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just to interject here: -ALL- members of this site function under the same ruleset. No one is 'above reproach', including myself. Report issues, they will be discussed and dealt with as necessary. No visible action does not mean we did nothing as we prefer not to discuss policy in public. As to free speech, no, it doesn't exist here, or on any forum really. US Constitution doesn't apply here either. We do however allow a great deal of leeway to facilitate the free flow of conversation, as long as it's within our posted guidelines. So, putting it shortly, everyone review the rules, stay within them, and I don't have to pause my latest Scooby Doo marathon and work. Ok, back to the topic.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Oh and that Enter the Dojo sketch series is wonderful - I chortled most heartily .

Slippery slope, losing wicket, enter the dojo sketch, chortled most heartedly... I'm sorry, but I don't get it. I'm not allowed to speak my mind and/or defend myself against the negative statements made against me, by other members? Members that question my motives, competence, confidense, ability and so on...

...Oh well.

Winning is important! It always has been, it is now, and it always will be. How important was it for the original colonies, which later became the USA, to send the British back to where they came from, during the revolutionary war? How important was it, when the Americans drove back the evil forces of Japan into a complete and total surrender during WW2? How important was it for the free world to defeat Germany, Hitler and his crazy ideas of domination by white folks?

 

[Champ-Pain]

Just to interject here: -ALL- members of this site function under the same ruleset. No one is 'above reproach', including myself. Report issues, they will be discussed and dealt with as necessary. No visible action does not mean we did nothing as we prefer not to discuss policy in public. As to free speech, no, it doesn't exist here, or on any forum really. US Constitution doesn't apply here either. We do however allow a great deal of leeway to facilitate the free flow of conversation, as long as it's within our posted guidelines. So, putting it shortly, everyone review the rules, stay within them, and I don't have to pause my latest Scooby Doo marathon and work. Ok, back to the topic.

Sir, I agree with what you say on this post, however, some/many of my posts are wrongly misinterpreted, purposely or otherwise, and often taken out of context. I actually speak, understand, read and write in english, fairly well IMHO. So then, why is it so hard for some to understand exactly what I'm saying? Why misrepresent my point of view, opinions and positions and try to make it sound like something other than what I say and/or mean?

 

[Champ-Pain]

I like your trailer video btw, it is professionally done.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Just wanted to make a quick point. This video is now almost 2 years old, and all but 1 of the children on it are still my students at Champion Martial Arts USA - "Where Children Become Champions".

 

[Sukerkin]

Slippery slope, losing wicket, enter the dojo sketch, chortled most heartedly... I'm sorry, but I don't get it. I'm not allowed to speak my mind and/or defend myself against the negative statements made against me, by other members? Members that question my motives, competence, confidense, ability and so on...

Within the limits of behaviour set out within the agreement that you signed when you joined the site, of course you are.

To clarify, I highlighted the part that I was commenting on when I replied above. Whether you intended it or not, the passage intimated that you would persist in behaving as you wished regardless of what anyone else thought or whatever the outcome would be. That was the 'slippery slope' and why it is a 'losing wicket' was eloquently pointed out soon after - the rules apply to everyone, even the chap who pays the bills for the place.

This thread is turning into a classic example of why text-based communication has it's pitfalls when it comes to getting your point across ulls at hair:.

By the way, post #116 was a separate post, distinct from what I had to say in post #115. I'd not seen that web-series before and it was very funny, striking all those cliche points about over-intense MA instructors with accuracy.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Whether you intended it or not, the passage intimated that you would persist in behaving as you wished regardless of what anyone else thought or whatever the outcome would be.

Another misrepresentation!!! What I said was "I will defend myself against those who attack me" - referring to one person, in general. I say one thing - you hear something completely different - purposely or otherwise.

 

[Sukerkin]

I was telling you what I thought your words implied. Misinterpretation, aye maybe so, but not misrepresentation.

I would suggest that it might be the case that what this thread is also showing, as well as the shortfalls of the medium, is that very often what we think we write is not always what others read. I've been in those shoes quite a few times and it's usually not very comfortable, particularly if I've seriously upset someone. "Oh! I didn't mean such-and-such in THAT way!" has been a phrase I have learned to couch in several different fashions so as to avoid repetition :lol:.

 

[Carol]

I agree. School is much more important. I ask my students how they are doing in school, on a regular basis... it's important to me, how they do.

:asian:

That was my impression too. You're...as subtle as a freaking bulldozer but, you also strike me as a coach that really cares about his kids. Unfortunately there are some kids out there that don't have enough of that.

 

[Jenna]

I would echo Carol's sentiment above. You can be how you like with adults online or in the real world, that is up to you. Regarding your young students though, if you abide by the idea of NEVER doing anything that you do not feel will benefit them then I think that is a good thing. It is implicit for me that that idea includes giving them credit for having given their best effort, whether or not they have taken a win on the mats. Good luck, Jenna.

 

[Champ-Pain]

CP, For the record, the more you type, the more I do hear the cry of "Kobra Kai!!!!"

I can't believe I missed this one - so I'll answer to it, now. Your opinion is obvious, by your replies. The thing is that - I would bet my house with everything in it - your opinion would be very different if you actually knew me personally. I'd also bet that we are probably NOT as different as you may believe - and it is quite possible that we have many things in common, despite of our disagreements, here on MT. Perhaps this can be the start of us, both, in understanding one another a little bit better. BTW - I'm probably a whole lot closer to the karate kid's Sensei than the other guy. Believe it or not.