What constitutes competition?

[drop bear]

I'm not saying not caring about winning, but that they are okay with it. If you enter a competition, some part of you know you may lose, it's not a great feeling, but beyond that competition it won't have a great impact on your life.
For instance, when I was fencing, there were certain schools and fencers where I knew I wasn't going to win against them. I would still try my hardest to win, and be frustrated when I lost, but beyond that day the consequence of losing wasn't all that large.

Yeah. But listening to some joko willnik podcasts he also advocated being ok with dying.

 

[Martial D]

There's a lot of talk on here about the importance/unimportance of competition, but I'm curious how everyone is defining competition. It sounds like a relatively simple answer, but depending on the purpose of competition can determine whether or not it's important. For clarification, when I mention competition here, I'm specifically asking about competition in the terms that it would be a beneficial or necessary part of training.

For example: A UFC santioned fight is competition, I think we can all agree on that. So is a boxing match, or a WTF tournament, or a Naga competition. Some of those can be tournament styled, where you have to win to go on to the next match, others can be a one-set match. I could participate in an amateur boxing match once, and never fight again, regardless if I win or lose.

That brings me to the first issue. If there is no pressure to win, does it count as competition? If I enter a match, with the same plan not to fight again whether or not I win, and if I'm just as happy losing as winning, I just wanted to say that I 'fought', does that count as a competition? To me, this would technically be a competition, but I don't see myself gaining anything special from it.

The second point for me is: how much does your opponent matter in considering something a competition? If I compete in a state tournament in full contact karate or kickboxing, I'm 130 pounds, my opponent is 250, and he wins by virtue of being stronger/bigger than me. Does that still count as a competition for either of us? If I'm a black belt whos been training for 10 years, and enter a tournament with only white belts, who have never done that style, does that still count as a competition? What if there's a significant age difference-if someone decides to allow a 25 year old into a tournament with only 10 year olds, they're competing but would that count as a competition? To me, while these may fit the definition of competition in the general sense, I wouldn't gain the benefit of testing my stuff or being in that adrenaline environment, because beating on a 10 year old or someone that's never thrown a punch doesn't take a whole lot of skill.

Next: In house competitions. If my local school holds a competition for just members of the school, does that count as a competition? It's against the people I spar with all the time, and I only need to be effective against them, not in general. But it could still have that pressure, especially if something rides on it (think the thread where a belt promotion depends on beating someone else from the school during the test).

What about street fights. If I fought in the street against some random person, is that a competition? It's something where I would be actively trying to win, the other person could have any level of skill, train in any level of style without my knowledge, and there are consequences from the loss. If not, what is missing to make it a competition/gain the benefits from one?

Finally: sparring matches. If I spar with someone, from a different style, and we both have every desire to win, does that count as a competition? What if it's a hard contact sparring match, where we both are going for a KO, versus a medium contact sparring match, where we have someone unofficially letting us know who is 'better' in the match?

I guess my question is, what exactly are the benefits of a competition, and do they have to be in a specific 'competition' setting in order to count for it. And are there competitions/people who can compete but not gain that benefit at all?

Me vs you. You vs him. Him vs me. Whatever. If two people are trying to hit each other and not get hit, it's competition.

Seems simple enough to me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Me vs you. You vs him. Him vs me. Whatever. If two people are trying to hit each other and not get hit, it's competition.

Seems simple enough to me.

Then would you consider any sparring match a competition? Or is there a separate level for competition?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah. But listening to some joko willnik podcasts he also advocated being ok with dying.

Not sure who that is, but a quick google states that he's a navy seal. Is that idea (being ok with dying) about being in the military, or about martial arts?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Loss of the competition. If you go into a competition with no intention of competing, you are undermining your development.

So if I view a sparring match as something that I do not want to lose, say I really don't like the other MAist's attitude, or as a black belt it would hurt my pride to lose to a blue belt, is it the same as a competition?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Competition has levels, and the highest level is MMA. The lowest level is probably doing kata for trophies, then tap sparring, etc. Being a real fighter, IMO, requires that you fight in timed rounds for KO so this would eliminate light contact and BJJ/grappling only. But then there are lots of what-ifs. Like if someone competes like 10x a year for years and years with hundreds of matches in BJJ vs. some guy who only fights once and lost in a Boxing match, then never fights again....then who's the real fighter? The BJJ guy will probably destroy this Boxer in a streetfight. Competition fighting is highest in prestige and usually, demonstration of skills.

Streetfighting, in general, is usually trash. Some drunk *** gets in your face and you punch him in the nose and he quits & you walk away = 1-0 record. Whoopdeedoo. Getting in that 1st punch usually wins the street fight. If not then just throw 20+ haymakers each and see who's still standing after 30 seconds. Most people will over embellish their streetfighting experiences, esp. the SD crowd. In fighting gyms, you can't bull****. You talk big and many people will challenge you.

There's also the Gym Warrior, which is the person who trains regularly and spars up to KO level but is not interested in competing. They can beat Pro fighters or lose to Amateurs, depends on the day, whatever.

What sparring & competing at the KO power level does is it proves that you're not full of **** to yourself & others....and hiding behind your keyboard spewing bull****. People can talk about how bad*** they were 20 years ago in the ring (or lie about it when they never even fought), but that doesn't mean anything today when they'll get starched due to being scared of going hard as apart of regular training, for whatever reason(s)......like oohhhh I'm a Heart Surgeon and my hands are delicate instruments and I make $1 million/year....can't risk my fingers nor my brain cells...blah, blah....that's fine, so you fear getting hit in the face hard....b/c fear does come back and I see it in dudes who trained/fought 10 years ago, quit then come back....fat, low cardio, slow, etc.....their eyes are full of fear.

So basically, to you whether or not it's a competition is less important, the more important thing is whether or not you train up to KO level consistently? But streetfighting also wouldn't count, since it's generally not a full fight?

In your opinion then, which would be more effective, getting in street fights occasionally, or training a style with medium-level sparring?

 

[drop bear]

Not sure who that is, but a quick google states that he's a navy seal. Is that idea (being ok with dying) about being in the military, or about martial arts?

Military for him. But reflected in martial arts.

I will hunt down the podcast if you want to listen to an hour or so of gab.
148: When Life Laughs At You in Crappy Situations, Stand Up and Don't Let It. "Valleys Of Death", by Bill Richardson

 

[Steve]

So if I view a sparring match as something that I do not want to lose, say I really don't like the other MAist's attitude, or as a black belt it would hurt my pride to lose to a blue belt, is it the same as a competition?

not quite the same. It only works the other way. If you enter a competition and have no intention of competing, it may as well be sparring. And its disrespectful and a waste of everyone's time, includong your own.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Military for him. But reflected in martial arts.

I will hunt down the podcast if you want to listen to an hour or so of gab.
148: When Life Laughs At You in Crappy Situations, Stand Up and Don't Let It. "Valleys Of Death", by Bill Richardson

Thanks. Going to listen it tomorrow on the way in/out of work.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

not quite the same. It only works the other way. If you enter a competition and have no intention of competing, it may as well be sparring. And its disrespectful and a waste of everyone's time, includong your own.

Whats lost then, if you intend to win sparring, and would consider it a huge loss of pride to lose?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Whats lost then, if you intend to win sparring, and would consider it a huge loss of pride to lose?

The problem is if you lose once, lose twice, ... , you may keep losing. You may become a loser for the rest of your life.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's a lot of talk on here about the importance/unimportance of competition, but I'm curious how everyone is defining competition. It sounds like a relatively simple answer, but depending on the purpose of competition can determine whether or not it's important. For clarification, when I mention competition here, I'm specifically asking about competition in the terms that it would be a beneficial or necessary part of training.

For example: A UFC santioned fight is competition, I think we can all agree on that. So is a boxing match, or a WTF tournament, or a Naga competition. Some of those can be tournament styled, where you have to win to go on to the next match, others can be a one-set match. I could participate in an amateur boxing match once, and never fight again, regardless if I win or lose.

That brings me to the first issue. If there is no pressure to win, does it count as competition? If I enter a match, with the same plan not to fight again whether or not I win, and if I'm just as happy losing as winning, I just wanted to say that I 'fought', does that count as a competition? To me, this would technically be a competition, but I don't see myself gaining anything special from it.

The second point for me is: how much does your opponent matter in considering something a competition? If I compete in a state tournament in full contact karate or kickboxing, I'm 130 pounds, my opponent is 250, and he wins by virtue of being stronger/bigger than me. Does that still count as a competition for either of us? If I'm a black belt whos been training for 10 years, and enter a tournament with only white belts, who have never done that style, does that still count as a competition? What if there's a significant age difference-if someone decides to allow a 25 year old into a tournament with only 10 year olds, they're competing but would that count as a competition? To me, while these may fit the definition of competition in the general sense, I wouldn't gain the benefit of testing my stuff or being in that adrenaline environment, because beating on a 10 year old or someone that's never thrown a punch doesn't take a whole lot of skill.

Next: In house competitions. If my local school holds a competition for just members of the school, does that count as a competition? It's against the people I spar with all the time, and I only need to be effective against them, not in general. But it could still have that pressure, especially if something rides on it (think the thread where a belt promotion depends on beating someone else from the school during the test).

What about street fights. If I fought in the street against some random person, is that a competition? It's something where I would be actively trying to win, the other person could have any level of skill, train in any level of style without my knowledge, and there are consequences from the loss. If not, what is missing to make it a competition/gain the benefits from one?

Finally: sparring matches. If I spar with someone, from a different style, and we both have every desire to win, does that count as a competition? What if it's a hard contact sparring match, where we both are going for a KO, versus a medium contact sparring match, where we have someone unofficially letting us know who is 'better' in the match?

I guess my question is, what exactly are the benefits of a competition, and do they have to be in a specific 'competition' setting in order to count for it. And are there competitions/people who can compete but not gain that benefit at all?

My normal working definition has two parts:

• Competition. Two people trying to beat each other under some agreed limitation or rule set.
• Formal Competition. A subset of the same, explicitly organized by some body and set up with the intent of one or more “winners”.

There are likely differences, though some are not inherent (better competitors in the latter) and others vary more by individual (impact of an audience).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you don’t care about winning....then you aren’t competing. You are just participating.

Not caring about losing isn’t the same thing as not caring about winning. I’ve never minded losing the same way I enjoy winning. In anything.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The problem is if you lose once, lose twice, ... , you may keep losing. You may become a loser for the rest of your life.

I meant whats the difference between competition and sparring, if either way I very much don't want to lose. I agree, I have no desire to continuously lose.

 

[Buka]

I just wrote a long reply, taking each point from your first post and offering my two cents.....and my laptop ate the f'n thing. F!

I'll try later.

 

[drop bear]

There would essentially be a points system to valid competition.

So yeah you would say competition is one thing. But then you would qualify it.

So if I win the super exclusive my own backyard mma title. It would not be as legitimate as a boxer who wins against a national competition.

 

[drop bear]

I meant whats the difference between competition and sparring, if either way I very much don't want to lose. I agree, I have no desire to continuously lose.

Competition has the expectation that you will put winning first and safety second. Sort of. There is a gray area.

 

[Martial D]

Then would you consider any sparring match a competition? Or is there a separate level for competition?

Of course. Unless you aren't trying to hit and not get hit.

That seems like it wouldn't make for very good training though wouldn't you say?

 

[dvcochran]

There is a big difference between 'not caring' and being OK with losing.
Two examples:
I haven't done any tourney stuff in years, but when I did, I was OK with losing. That's called being a good sport. Or, in the lingo of today, not being a douche canoe.

If the pairing is a big mismatch (last week I sparred with an 8th geup, simply because he was the only adult in a class that happened to be full of kids) then I probably don't care much about winning. Now, you can say that this is because I'm teaching, and that's a valid point. But I have done that (and seen others do that) in non-teaching settings as well. In my HEMA days, I can recall times when I was paired up with someone who had just started. If they came out with a single rapier, I'd come out with nothing but a dagger. Because what mattered wasn't winning, but having a good match.

Sometimes winning really isn't all that important.

Agree, but I don't think I never went into a match already saying it would be OK to lose. If the result was losing and I was OK with my performance then I was OK with losing. If you are thinking that way before the match started, that has to take away some of the mental edge. It could be that day where the better physical opponent was beaten mentally.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

whats the difference between competition and sparring,

In

- sparring, you don't mind to lose because you try to develop new skill.
- competition, you don't want to lose because you try to test your door guarding skill (bread and butter skill).

This is why the sparring/wrestling won't count for your official record. Only the open tournament record will be counted as your official record.