:chuckles: That happens to me when I'm nearly asleep in my keyboard. Apologies.
Winning - Important or Irrelevant?
- Thread starter Champ-Pain
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:chuckles: That happens to me when I'm nearly asleep in my keyboard. Apologies.
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Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
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- #102
Kay - perhaps I posted this thread on the wrong section, my bad - but why keep talking about oranges - when the topic is about apples?
I'm posting about the importance of winning at M/A competition, or sports in general - NOT a kill or be killed - battle to the death. There is a BIG difference.
Training to be able to Fight to the Death is Comparable to the Armed Forces?
So... Training with every Approach geared towards being rather Lethal would be...
Good to Know!
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Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #104
I'm making the suggestion that winning in sports is important - and I've made no defamatory statements about those who don't win - I most certainly have not called anyone a loser. I understand that sometimes, on rare occations, some people gain more from a loss than they do from a win. I'm not arguing with such point of view... and I also tell my students "your best effort is ALWAYS good enough for me"... WIN or LOSE.
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Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
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- #105
NOBODY I know trains to fight to the death, although, I suspect most people can do so, if forced into such a situation, without any other choice - whether they train in M/A or not.
It depends on the Style, then.
To be fair, since you Train a Competition Geared Form, you likely associate with Competition Geared People.
I was mainly saying that, because by those Standards, ive never Trained somewere that DIDNT Emphasise being as Effective as Possible. Lethal or Non Lethal. With everything able to be Geared into Lethal at a moments notice.
Which is why it interests Me that Youd Relate that theme to the Armed Forces
Then in competition, why is it important to win?
Is not the most important thing to compete?
@ judochampion - Parents looking to have their kids win are probably prone to going to your school. If I was looking for a school for my kids to learn MA, I'd be put off by an emphasis on winning.
No one's changing their mind here. Look at how many people simply don't participate in sports at all. If we want to see more people participate, I doubt emphasizing the importance of winning is going to encourage a lot of people.
No one's changing their mind here. Look at how many people simply don't participate in sports at all. If we want to see more people participate, I doubt emphasizing the importance of winning is going to encourage a lot of people.
Your words were:
So of all the people that competed in something this weekend, and didn't win.... (fill in the blank).
Go ahead, fill in the blank with your own words.
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Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
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- #110
I'll ask my students during class tomorrow - why it's important to win... I'm pretty sure it has something to do with feeling good about yourself when you win, and the fact that winning is much more fun and enjoyable than losing - under almost every circumstances, with very few exceptions.
If you don't believe it is important to win - why do you feel it is important to compete, at all?
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Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
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- #111
Simple. Better luck next time.
My words were "Losing Sux" with NO reference or mention about those who do so.
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To test yourself against strangers rather than dojo-mates.
OP
Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
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- #113
A test you will try to pass, by winning. No?
mograph
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(in competition, not "the street")
It's all about self-gratification -- getting the dopamine hit.
I get it by performing well. That's primary.
I'd rather lose by performing well, rather than win by performing badly.
In the long run, improving is more important to me than winning. Improving gives me the dopamine hit. I want to be better than I was last time.
If the thought of winning motivates you to perform well, then that's your means to our end.
I interpret Blindside's point of view of the test as: evaluation. Not a binary "win/lose" evaluation, but one more on a continuum of value, comparing current performance to memory of past performance and expectations of future performance.
No attachments.
Mushin.
It's all about self-gratification -- getting the dopamine hit.
I get it by performing well. That's primary.
I'd rather lose by performing well, rather than win by performing badly.
In the long run, improving is more important to me than winning. Improving gives me the dopamine hit. I want to be better than I was last time.
If the thought of winning motivates you to perform well, then that's your means to our end.
I interpret Blindside's point of view of the test as: evaluation. Not a binary "win/lose" evaluation, but one more on a continuum of value, comparing current performance to memory of past performance and expectations of future performance.
No attachments.
Mushin.
And when it comes to sparring we all get far too used to sparring w/ the same people in class and being able to predict their fighting style and what they'll do generally. It's essential if you want to become a better fighter to spar in a tournament (or at least visit another school and spar them there). Winning isn't necessarily the goal, improving is.
Likewise I find that the students who compete have far better looking kata's than those who don't. That's because the incentive to win drives them to practice and fine tune their kata far more than if they're just doing it for class to pass a test. It's like taking the SAT's or something, if you just take them because you have to do you'll do ok... if you take them because you're trying to get into Harvard, you're going to study harder and as a result do a lot better. Competing raises the bar for practice.
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Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
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- #116
Maybe I've used the wrong word - when I posted winning is important. I suspect that in the great scheme of things, it's nowhere near the top of important things in a real life scenario. It still remains much more fun and enjoyable to win than it is to lose, at anything. It serves as a motivator, confidense & self esteem builder, gives a sense of worth, puts a smile on our faces, a spring in our walk and lots of other wonderful feelings that make us happy and proud of our accomplishments...
... but I'd rather be one of the Jamaican bob-sled team members that made it to the Olympics, in a puff of smoke, several years ago.
... but I'd rather be one of the Jamaican bob-sled team members that made it to the Olympics, in a puff of smoke, several years ago.
An interesting perspective there, Shima.
I think, as JC has been trying to reiterate, that it depends upon the art and what your aims are in practising that art.
In a sense this loops around to the old sparring-or-kata debate as to which is the better for learning technique i.e. doing the technique full power and full speed but without a literal opponent or doing the technique 'wrongly' but with a resisting opponent.
That competition teaches you to perform the techniques your art improperly (and outright forbids the use of some) cannot really be gainsaid, so the discourse then becomes whether there is something to be obtained from competition that counterbalances that derailing of training. I think (and I don't want to put words in his mouth) what JC is saying that what you get from competition is that the drive towards 'winning' and the transitory fillip of self-esteem that comes from that if you do win encourages you to try ever harder to get that feeling again.
What many of the rest of us have been saying is that that apparent prize is of little value to a martial artist whose aim is not 'sport'. However, in the context of someone who consciously knows that what they are doing is sport and is thus down a very different path than a practitioner who is training for reasons of self-improvement or self-defence, then, on reflection, I think he may have a point.
It's just very alien to my mindset of what martial-arts are supposed to be and so it is harder for me to accept it as valid as compared to holding such a mindset when playing something like table-tennis competitively. It doesn't mean he's wrong but it does mean that, within my terms of reference, I think he's wrong to put winning at the top of the list rather than as a pleasant adjunct to the other things that I feel to be more important about training in a martial art.
EDIT: JC posted whilst I was typing away and I wholeheartedly agree with what he said {post #116}.
I think, as JC has been trying to reiterate, that it depends upon the art and what your aims are in practising that art.
In a sense this loops around to the old sparring-or-kata debate as to which is the better for learning technique i.e. doing the technique full power and full speed but without a literal opponent or doing the technique 'wrongly' but with a resisting opponent.
That competition teaches you to perform the techniques your art improperly (and outright forbids the use of some) cannot really be gainsaid, so the discourse then becomes whether there is something to be obtained from competition that counterbalances that derailing of training. I think (and I don't want to put words in his mouth) what JC is saying that what you get from competition is that the drive towards 'winning' and the transitory fillip of self-esteem that comes from that if you do win encourages you to try ever harder to get that feeling again.
What many of the rest of us have been saying is that that apparent prize is of little value to a martial artist whose aim is not 'sport'. However, in the context of someone who consciously knows that what they are doing is sport and is thus down a very different path than a practitioner who is training for reasons of self-improvement or self-defence, then, on reflection, I think he may have a point.
It's just very alien to my mindset of what martial-arts are supposed to be and so it is harder for me to accept it as valid as compared to holding such a mindset when playing something like table-tennis competitively. It doesn't mean he's wrong but it does mean that, within my terms of reference, I think he's wrong to put winning at the top of the list rather than as a pleasant adjunct to the other things that I feel to be more important about training in a martial art.
EDIT: JC posted whilst I was typing away and I wholeheartedly agree with what he said {post #116}.
OP
Champ-Pain
Blue Belt
- Thread Starter
- #118
You know, sometimes I say something - and it sounds like something else, when interpreted by others. I'm certainly very happy that you understand my point of view, even if you don't agree with it...
... We don't have to agree - only to understand and respect one another.
Sure, if I compete at something I try to win, but the real object is to learn something. I found with my old kenpo school, those students that competed regularly in tournaments generally did better in class, tested better, advanced faster. They didn't have to be winning students, but the experience they got prepping for and competing in tournament paid dividends for the rest of their martial experience.
Enjoying a game/sport/exercise. I enjoy feeling my body work. I enjoy the effort. Don't you enjoy bursts of adrenalin?
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