Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Si-Je]

Oh, MJS, I understand why your doing what your doing, and I understand that you train against other stylists to improve your Kempo. I understand you like to study BJJ to add to your fighting knowledge.
I agree with half of what your doing.
I agree with training against or with other stylists. I just don't prefer crosstraining.
Done, there. That's all.
Each to their own.
I just found some cool anti-grappling (whatever you want to call it, we just call it WC ground fighting because the name anti-grappling just riles people all up. As I've learned by chatting on this board. Better to make the PC fupa's on a chat board than with a student.)
And I wanted to share. These weren't online until recently, or I just couldn't find them. Most of these are from Germany, and such and the words "anti-grappling" in search on youtube won't bring them up.
But, that be what their doing.
This is my preference when it comes to ground fighting. And these guys train this stuff on the hard floor to prepare you for the street. ouch.

 

[MJS]

Oh, MJS, I understand why your doing what your doing, and I understand that you train against other stylists to improve your Kempo. I understand you like to study BJJ to add to your fighting knowledge.
I agree with half of what your doing.
I agree with training against or with other stylists. I just don't prefer crosstraining.
Done, there. That's all.
Each to their own.

I do what I do for a number of reasons. Like you, what we do works for us. I enjoy learning. I am in no rush for anything. I'm not a rank whore. When it comes, it comes. Some arts, I'm just interested in training and learning and have no desire to test for rank. If I can take something from someone or from an art, and make my skills better, I'm going to do it, and IMHO, we'd be crazy not to. But hey, if someone doesn't want to, thats their loss, my gain.

I just found some cool anti-grappling (whatever you want to call it, we just call it WC ground fighting because the name anti-grappling just riles people all up. As I've learned by chatting on this board. Better to make the PC fupa's on a chat board than with a student.)
And I wanted to share. These weren't online until recently, or I just couldn't find them. Most of these are from Germany, and such and the words "anti-grappling" in search on youtube won't bring them up.
But, that be what their doing.
This is my preference when it comes to ground fighting. And these guys train this stuff on the hard floor to prepare you for the street. ouch.

The term doesn't rile me up..lol. It just amazes me, how we can have people pretty much agreeing on something, yet someone always finds a way to twist something or totally miss the point of whats being said. Oh well, that happens on forums. Its hard to always type and hope that the people reading will comprehend whats being said. As far as the clips go...I enjoyed them. When I have a bit more time, I plan on watching them again. Like I said, the last few posts seem to find us agreeing, but unfortunately, I still don't think you're seeing that.

Man, 20+ pages and its still a round and round debate. If this thread would only die.....

 

[Si-Je]

I think we do that alot! lol!
We argue but we're saying the same thing, just a different way. Just have a different approach to explaining it.
Communication is such an art, and communicating in this medium takes some doin' too.
You can't hear the inflection, or tone, so sometimes major points in a conversation are missed, or misintrepreted.
The emot's help, but I find that they end up covering my entire post! lol!

As for rank, I've never been big on that. I like WT/WC because it barely has a ranking system. No belts.
I love MA and like learning and training new stuff from new arts too. But, my big "obession" is WC/WT right now. lol!
I've kinda explored alot of the other stuff years ago when I was younger. I'd love to learn Capoerta, but, I'm not flexable like I was at 18. So that's probably out. But, I still think it's cool. I like JJJ and Judo still, but working for a living doing crappy work gave me a lower back injury, so that's pretty much out for me too. That's okay, I've done it before now, it's just time for me to do other style. We are attracted to arts that fit us and our limitations, strengths, mindsetts, and philosophies.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Most definitely...I havent been yet...because I need to invest in better mouth piece...the two i got for walmart don't fit correctly. But I am coming...I didnt want to waste my free class an not have everything so i could spar with some of you all...


I havent forgot....been lazy lately...with the weather and colds...lol...

Yoshiyahu, could you come by the gym and show us some of these techniques? I'm really interested in getting another perspective on anti grappling.

 

[KamonGuy2]

MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?

 

[Hagakure]

The above link it to a video with a great camera angle my point is based from....that point being that BJJ and WC/T can easily flow together. They both are designed for the smaller fighter to be a step more equal to a larger and likely stronger opponent. This video shows a simple sweep by Rener Gracie to off balance and reverse position from an attacker that has you fully mounted. This technique here has trapping (not WC/T, but not all that different is the intent of the trap), not just with hands but legs as well.

In my opinion, I think BJJ would be a great addition to Wing Chun/Tsun and not all that difficult for the 'Chunner to grasp whilst staying to the 'Chun principles in most cases.

My former Wing Chun sifu combines both of these arts very well I believe. He's studied Wing Chun for around 20 years, and has over the last 10 or so incorporated BJJ very nicely. When in a Wing Chun class with him, he only ever touched on the Wing Chun, (that's what he was being paid for) but he was open enough to occassionally suggest "BJJ moves" in some circumstances.

 

[MJS]

MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?

Thanks. I think its safe to say that we're all passionate about the arts that we study. Myself, I like to give credit, where credit is due. In other words, if something is Arnis or BJJ, I don't try to mislead someone into thinking that its Kenpo. While I do try to use my base art, I don't have any issues with admitting that it may not have as good an asnwer as BJJ. So, while I try to stick to Kenpo, if I was doing a takedown defense, if things start to go south, I have no issues with switching to BJJ.

I don't understand why people are in this mindset that they can look outside the box, and that if Master so and so said it'll work, then it must. I wish that people would humble themselves a bit and open their eyes to the fact that sometimes, it necessary to admit that A is lacking so we may need to look at B for the solution. As I said in a recent post here, if BJJ is what it takes to get me out of the jam, because Kenpo isn't working, who the hell cares. If it works I'm going to use it.

As you said, there are many aspects from BJJ that can be applied standing. People hear BJJ and right away, assume that it must be done on the ground. That IMO, shows the lack of understanding. There are a few things that can be done from an upright position. May need to modify it slightly, but it'll still work.

As I also pointed out in another post, if we look at some of the top MMA guys today, such as Chuck, we'll see a wonderful display of him avoiding a takedown. He's using concepts from grappling to aid him. And as far as people saying that they'll never go down....well, must be nice to be able to predict the outcome of things. I mean, I'm sure people never thought they'd get taken down by Royce, yet thats exactly where they landed.

If plan A fails, we better have a plan B, C, D, and E to fall back on.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.kungfulifestyle.com/

Takedowns, Grappling and anti take downs are apart of wing chun...check out the link above...

Anyway...if your intent is take someone to ground then eventually you might accomplish that. If there goal is to get off the floor quickly then they probably will. If there goal is to knock you out before you can take them down. Then they probably will..The issue is you have to practice practice practice...Someone doing take downs every week is going to have an advantage on someone doing anti take downs once a month. An vice versa...Someone sparring wrestlers,strikers and grapplers everyday will have an advantage over someone who only spars people of there style once a week. But this is my opinion. I don't spar every day yet...So I am merely speaking from my own view point of were I want to be. I want to spar atleast five times a week if possible...

Thats my goal.

MJS is making some very good points which seem to be falling on deaf ears.

If I go and train with someone who does Judo and teaches me Judo, I am training Judo

If Emin trained with people who did BJJ and learnt BJJ from them then that is really no different from going to a school and doing BJJ classes
My BJJ training is 30% classwork, 70% training with my friend who is a purple belt

Grappling is grappling. It is no good disguising it as anti grappling or chin na. Chin na is not wing chun. People assert that it is part of wing chun. It is not. No more than escrima is part of wing chun and yet people often include it in their system

Anti-grappling concepts come from BJJ and Judo, simple as that.

In a real life scenario you may not do an arm bar or triangle choke purely because your opponents friends can kick you whilst you are in that position. But there are many important aspects in BJJ that are essential for street confrontation.

Sije you seem very sure of yourself and your ability not to get taken down. So I offer you this friendly challenge. If you are ever in the UK, stop by my school and I'll try to take you down and you can use your anti grappling. If I don't get you to the floor I'll buy you a chocolate bar.

When you think of the logistics of a 25 stone guy charging in at a 10 stone person, do you really think that the 10 stone person is going to resist being picked up and dumped to the floor or mowed down?

Seriously?

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Thats a very smart way of looking at things in my opinion.

 

[Si-Je]

Kamon Guy. You and many grapplers always seem to make the same assumption that WC'ers are saying "well never be taken to the ground" because of focus on takedown defense, rooting, and abduction. This is not what I have EVER said.
Sure a grappler may take me down, and you know what? I'll probably allow it and not fight the takedown. That would go against WC principles to fight strength with strength.
If it can be thwarted with simple rooting while punching their head off great, if it can be re-directed by using WC/WT takedown defense then groovy. If not, then you go with it.
But, once on the ground my goals in fighting are the same as in standing. I want to punch, knee, elbow, kick, etc. I use chi sau, sensitivity, entire body, flow, and re-direction of the opponent's force.
I do NOT grab the grappler, I do not wrestler the wrestler, I do not resist against the "joint locks" of the BJJ stylist. I still focus on striking and deflection, and getting up off the ground. You flow with, you re-direct.

If you look at WT ground fighting technique and try to compare it to grappling you'll miss the entire technique. It is a style all to it's own, and is not comparable to grappling. It uses different techniques and different principles. When you work your legs on the ground like you do chi sau with your arms, you'll get it.
But, many people see this stuff online in videos and they can't see past the nose on their face. It's something you really have to feel to understand, just like anything else in WC/WT.

And you know? So what if Sifu Emin studied BJJ and other grappling arts. I take that for what it's worth. He's done the research and work on the anti-grappling, so I don't need to waste money going to another school or training another style from the ground up.
Sure, I'll train with BJJ, grappling, and wrestling guys as much as possible, but I'm not paying dues at their clubs. lol! And this is great training. For rarely do I get to use anti-grappling on someone that fights with the grapplers stiffness, use of brute strength, and mentality. Because as soon as a student comes in that takes that stuff and they get exposed to the anti-grappling they quickly change styles and stop wrestling altogether.

Even the kid we trained that was ON the wrestling team completely stopped using his wrestling in class. And he used the anti-grappling on his wrestling teammates to test it out further. And, guess what? He loved the stuff.
But, like I said, until you work with it you'll not understand it at all. It's like explaining every nuance and movement in chi sau in text online.
I could write a book and understaning would still be lost.

Take what you want, train how you want, crosstrain whatever you feel you need to do. I'm good. I'll just stick with what I'm being taught. It's been proven before my very eyes several times. So, I'm convinced.

p.s. chin na has been apart of WC forever. Oh, and if I ever get to the UK and you can't take me down they you'll owe me a pint! lol!

 

[jarrod]

For rarely do I get to use anti-grappling on someone that fights with the grapplers stiffness, use of brute strength, and mentality.

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

This is getting ridiculous. 22pages and as MJS noted you seem to be speaking the same thing.

I think the point that Kamon was trying to make was that most WC focuses on close-quarter stand up fighting. Some WC schools have also implemented anti-grapling to the curiculum(as Boztepe for example) and at my school we did groundfighting according to WC principals too for example. But the point is that allthough WC has principals and concepts, that in my opinion, could be applyed to virtualy anything, the WC curiculum in most schools teaches you only how to deal with bridging and close quarter combat. Now, as we all agreed groundfighting is an important aspect of fighting. The question now is how to approach it/how to best train for it. All that people here are saying is that training arts that are in some examples much older than WC and have specialised in groundfighting for all those hundreds of year have some very useful things to offer in the area of groundfighting. Now, I haven't trained any groundfighting art in particular but I wouldn't be suprised if some had a very WC approach to fighting. Afterall, as we said before, inteligent principals such as in WC can be found in many other arts. Especialy the ones that work. Now even if the groundfighting art you would hypotheticly go train isn't completely to your liking I'm sure that once you realy understand WC you can adapt those techniques to your WC way of thinking. For example if BJJ teaches you how to get out of a mess such as when a guy is mounted on your back and then does an armbar, I'm sure it's not such a big problem to adapt that technique so that when you get out of that mess with a good BJJ technique(which would probably be WC in principal anyway) you do thoat strikes and elbows to the face instead of the armbar. As you (or was it your hubbie?) said before; other groundfighting arts have helped you quite a bit to understand the WC approach to groundfighting better.

All I'm saying is that in my case for example we kind of had to look at every situation on the ground and think about what technique in groundfighting would be the msot WC approach to the situation. We didn't realy have a groundfighting curiculum that we could look at. Now an art that specialises in groundfighting, would in my opinion help greatly. And as I said, if it works, it probably is WC(more or less) anyway!

As for the Ebmas groundfighting; from what I trained of it and seen of it it looks fantastic and like something it would realy work! We even tryed it on trained graplers and it worked. One thing that bothers me tho is that this anti-grapling techniques in most cases assume that you'll be lying there on the ground and the grappler will come at you from afar. Or that he will try to take you down from far away instead of from trappying range for example while throwing a few missguiding punches first. I just think that when you end up on the ground for some reason you'll probably have that guy on top of you right away (having you in a screwed situation) and not comming at you from 2 meters away. Now when you're allaeady on the ground in some random screwed up situation all that grapling, BJJ training and ground sensitivity would sure be helpful in my opinion.

It's like saying; no need for a Karate guy to train WC sensitivity, WC trapping, close quarter combat or WC in general as after a Karate guy traines for 25 years his techniques will probably look like WC anyway. Now wouldn't have been helpful if that Karate guy just took WC for 5 years and train on a curiculum that focuses on that kind of stuff instead of in most cases getting there all by himself. Same thing goes for groundfighting arts. They specialise in that kind of stuff instead of most WC schools that don't. Now, Si-Je, you're saying that your school has a great grapling/anti-grapling curiculum allready but as I understand it it's in a huge way thatnks to you Sifus training in grapling arts. I bet if he hadnt your anti-grapling would have sucked Same goes for Boztepe(he trained arts that specialise in groundfighting)

I wanted to say a few other things but this is getting to long as it is allready so I'm gonna stop now.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

Ha, you see! Sounds very WC-ish to me.

 

[Si-Je]

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

 

[Steve]

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

And once again, you've completely missed the point, arguing semantics rather than thinking about the substance.

 

[jarrod]

Ju-Jitsu means "gentle art". As the japanese translation goes. I've got plenty of background in "grappling" dear. If three years isn't enough for you then what is?

three years in one of the hundreds of styles of jujitsu, which is only one of hundreds of styles of grappling, tells me you don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of grappling.

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.

 

[Si-Je]

Sifu showed me how to get out of a standing clinch with your back up against a wall using Chun Kiu technique. A little pivot and keeping your arms on top (no underhooking) and palm striking the opponent's sid eof the head. Worked beautifully.
It does seem that alot of anit-grappling technique does focus on "preventative" measures focusing on keeping the opponent away from afar.
But, we train doing chi sau on our backs while the opponent is in a mount position or between the legs too. This helps you stay out of armbars and to get out of them too.
Any ju-jitsu stylist if allowed to "lock out" on you your in big trouble and your chances of getting out at that point are slim. But even when I trained JJJ our counters for getting out of holds were largely "preventative" too. Not hardly did they ever teach you how to escape from a fully braced and locked out joint lock.
But, what Sifu's been showing me uses tan sau to get out of joint locks that art "locked out" that have you in a "submissive" position already. This has blown my mind. Years of training to "submit" when the joint is compromised rather than be broken has been and still is hard to fight against. But the more I train it the more natural it is to get out of those positions. You just have to re-train your thinking, the body will follow the mind every time.
I can't explain it in text. It's too weird. But the fact that I can now escape a full on koto gashie from a standing position without jumping over my whole arm is just amazing to me!
The fact that I can escape the all-time BJJ favorite armbar on the ground is even more awesome! Even after they have you totally flexed. Tan Sau, foreward force and corkscrew the body and your out.
Others like the butterfly guard and the other BJJ grappling guard, I love the WC "guard" (as I call it) for it's simply WC basic stance with abduction. You do this while on your back with an opponent between your legs and their not getting into strike, grapple, choke, or armbar you. Simple as that, I've done it on purple belts. They just can't "pass the guard". Unless they try to go to the side then you "leg chi sau" comes into play.
So, instead of locking my ankles around the guys waiste, I dig my knees into their torso and put my feet shoulder width apart, not touching them, just like when your standing only your feet are in the air. From here you roll them, kick, and are "in guard".
If they try to pry the knees apart (which they always do when they find they can't use their body weight to break through) then their clearly not able to attack you. you hit them, their hands are busy. If not, so what? You flow with your legs, torso, and arms. your arms are free to defend, attack, or whatever you need just like when standing. You roll them over with your legs.
If their too heavy, (or a good wrestler and root under you) you plant those feet at their hips and kick back, or put one foot on their knee (that's on the floor) and the other on the hip. Kick and twist towards the knee side and voila! they roll just great, and your able to get do that WC situp while chainpunching (the ladies in my WC cardio class loved that move! Really gives you a workout).

 

[Steve]

I think she described my grappling in her earlier post. LOL They must grapple much differently in Si-Je's area because the guys I used to roll with would barely be breathing much heavier than at rest while I sucked wind like I was dying!

Si-Je, BJJ guys are all about efficiency and leverage over strength. Please see the first 5 UFC's for various references.

I think it's important to note here that individuals will have varying degrees of skill. Dungeonworks touches on this. I'm better than I was as a white belt. I use much less strength than I used to. I try to stay relaxed. It's what we strive for. I'm not as good at it as some. I'm better than others. I have a long way to go.

Just as someone who trains WC will improve. You can't walk into a WC school and just magically fight like Bruce Lee, but you might not know it listening to the comments in this forum. Whenever Si-Je in particular speaks about WC, it's from the position of ideal circumstances. It's never "I" can do X, Y, or Z using my Wing Chun. Rather, "Wing Chun" can do "X, Y, or Z" or in some cases, "My Sifu can do X, Y, and Z."

On the flip side, whenever grappling is brought up, it's from the worst case scenario: grapplers grunt, have hairy knuckles and only know how to use their strength.

I'm not saying that Si-Je's WC is weak or anything like that. I'm saying that if we're to have a useful comparison of "grappling" and "anti-grappling" that you have to consider grappling and anti-grappling at a similar skill level, be that expert or beginner. You can't compare beginner level grappling to advanced anti-grappling and expect to come to any useful conclusion.

 

[MJS]

statements like this are really insulting, & it also lets me know that you really don't even have a rudimentary understanding of grappling. i know that my school as well as many others i've attended emphasize fluidity of motion & technique over strength. that's what the "ju" in "jujitsu" means, fyi.

i know your mind is made up & that's fine, i just post these bits here & there so that lurkers aren't mis-informed.

carry on.

jf

Yup, this is the point that I've been trying to make all along. I find it soooo amusing how people come on here and say that grappling is all about strength, that it won't work for a smaller person....yet, I posted numerous links to prove that a smaller person CAN do it. Guess those went un-noticed, just like everything else.

Good post though. 2 thumbs up bro!