Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[MJS]

Can I just point out that Grados students cross train (ie are taught all areas of martial arts)
If you type grappling and grados into youtube, one of his top students actually talks about the need to improve his ground game

I think the whole thing has moved into the 'wing chun needs BJJ' area which is not the point. We are focusing on BJJ too much

Wing chun needs a ground game. If you are happy 'anti grapling' then fine, but your martial art technique will be STRONGER with a good art such as BJJ, Judo or catch wrestling. Rather than trying to make your art 'fit' into an unknown area, learn the basics of an art that is the best at that area

Wing chun is extremely good upright, but it is not flawless

There will be times when you are dragged to the floor or fall to the floor etc. That is undesputable. People are thinking very 2 dimensionally - two fighters at either side of the ring. Of course in that situation it will be hard for a wing chun person to be taken down. I am talking in crowded bars in a streetfight, where there are obstacles, people etc. I have lost count the number of times I have gone to ground unwillingly - and I have good footing and good stancework

Why paint a picture in black and white when you can add other colours?

Good points, and yes, the discussion has taken the BJJ vs. WC debate, however, there've been many times where I've pointed to any grappling art. I guess those posts have gone un-noticed by a few people. For the record, I'm not talking about you.

 

[Si-Je]

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:

I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
Each to their own.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?

 

[Si-Je]

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?

could be very good.
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.

 

[dungeonworks]

I think crosstraining in iron palm or tiger claws would beneficial to WC?


What about you?

I prefer Maple Plank Whitefish or Pork Loin myself.

 

[dungeonworks]

could be very good.
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.

Is there a connection between Eagle Claw and Bak Mei somehow somewhere and Wing Chun? Does either relate to Wing Chun? I saw Eddie Chong mentions Bak Mei on his site but never heard of any Wing Chun relation but some of the videos look like video I seen on Eagle Claw.

 

[MJS]

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:

I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.
But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
Each to their own.

Tell me...in this clip, how much of this is WC anti grappling?

 

[KamonGuy2]

Oh, I just don't agree. But, each to their own.
I'll stick with the anti-grappling. I searched grappling and Sifu Grados and didn't find anything about his student stating that he needs "ground game". Found this cool video though:

It is a muscly black guy - I think it is under 'Grados cage student'
He basically says that he won a fight by submission and yet still has a lot of groundwork to do

I really wish I'd found WC years ago, it would have saved me alot of money, trouble, and time in training.

If you want to train BJJ with your WT/WC, that's all a personal choice. If one just doesn't feel "well rounded" without it, then that's a personal decision. But, don't let folks that promote another art for their own benefit (I'm talking about teachers, professional instructors makeing a living off teaching, etc.) convince you that you just absolutely NEED it. I just encourage folks to make their decision based on how they feel and think about it not on what is popular, or trendy, or what many people are doing for whatever reason.

At Kamon it is done in a very fair way. The class is often divided near the end by Kevin Chan into those who want to stay in one side of the room an work on a bit of technical stuff (chi sao, lok sao) and thoe who want to work on the other side of the room with light sparring
Not everyone enjoys hitting people or getting hit so they have to be eased into it (otherwise people just get scared away). The same is with grappling. We hold seminars regularly for those who want to do it. Indeed, there are many 'old school' thinkers who are adamant they won't get taken down. They get embarrassed when I take them down with ease

But, that's just me, my personality, and may not fit everyone else. I've never been very politiacall correct, trendy, even fashionable (I've still got my metal biker jacket from High school! And wear it often! lol!), and I just hate pop culture, so I'm just a little more rebellious than some.
But, if you've come to that ultimate conclusion that your gonna mix BJJ with your WC/WT, then there you go. Do what you think is best for you. Doesn't mean I'll agree with you, and that doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Just opinion.
But, I'm not going to be convinced that that choice just needs to be made by me, that my fighting technique needs something other than WC/WT. I've got a different point of view, had different experiences, and have different knowledge.
Each to their own.

People again are making the mistake of focusing on BJJ. The point is that you need SOMETHING for when you do go to ground. And you will go to ground at some point in your life. Whether its by tripping over, being thrown over, being dragged down or being knocked to the ground

If you are on the ground and you have a really good spring kick (a kick from the floor) then great. If you know how to grapple then great. If you are a really good puncher when you're on the floor then great. The point is that you do need something that works and works well for when you are in that position

I can tell you now that Kevin Chan's stance is one of the best I have ever seen. So good that he easily stops me (who is three times his bodyweight)pushing him. He would be one of the hardest people to take to the floor, and yet he trains and promotes grappling arts. He dosn't need to - he could make lots of money by keeping to just wing chun. Indeed he has lost students who were too afraid to grapple or didn't like physical contact.

As I have always said, people forget that whateer art you cross train in, it will only improve your knowledge experience and often skill in the martial arts world

 

[dungeonworks]

Thanks Kamon. At least a handful of people "get" what this thread was meant to be about, 21 pages of posting ago....instead of trying to derail it many times by turning it into WC vs BJJ or trying to discuss wether Catfish style is better than Llama style or Earthworm is compatible with Sea Urchin....

 

[KamonGuy2]

Thanks Kamon. At least a handful of people "get" what this thread was meant to be about, 21 pages of posting ago....instead of trying to derail it many times by turning it into WC vs BJJ or trying to discuss wether Catfish style is better than Llama style or Earthworm is compatible with Sea Urchin....

Or Pirates vs Ninjas - ooo arggghhhh matey

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Ninjas would definately win...

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Not alll branches of Wing Chun practice Eagle claw techniques. Some do.

Some don't...

But Eagle claw is best use on the throat in my opinion....wow...

could be very good.
How about eagle claw? lol!
I had an eagle claw guy snatch my wrist and forearm at the speed of light in the most painful way one time! He was just a little old man, didn't know he'd move that fast. I told him I trained WC (not knowing about the eagle claw and WC thing. lol) and he just snatched me! ouch!
That's pretty neat stuff too.

 

[Si-Je]

Is there a connection between Eagle Claw and Bak Mei somehow somewhere and Wing Chun? Does either relate to Wing Chun? I saw Eddie Chong mentions Bak Mei on his site but never heard of any Wing Chun relation but some of the videos look like video I seen on Eagle Claw.

There may be. All I know is that Eagle Claw and Wing Chun have fought to the death and hated eachother for years. They used to fight on the rooftops in challenge matches all the time (may still they do?)
They could have "stolen" from eachother because of all the fighting with one another. That would make sence, know your enemy.

To MJS: the "sprawl" is not unique to BJJ or MMA. Chinese wrestling does something like this, JJJ we did variants of it, Zapota does it, etc...
The way he pins the guys head with the knees as he punches the ribs is akin to anti-grappling (only you'd chainpunch the back of the head and neck. He's following the rules of the sport by punching the sides of the head.)
The way he's always working to get back to his feet is true to anti-grappling concepts and intention.

I just found another video of him wrestling a guy in a ring. Don't know what that is about, guess he was competing in a wrestling match. He never hits the guy. bummer. painful.
But, until I can find a better example in the ring, he'll have to do.

Here's a WT guy in the yellow shorts.

Love the Russians! The guy in the Green shirt is VT, and fights what looks like a "non-compliant" MMA/MT style attacker. Doesn't get taken down. But...
VT dude needs that Dai Sau, he gets hit with hook punch EVERY time! I like the spinning back kick that led to a takedown. very nice. Make Si-Je happy.

I like this one too. Tell me if you train like this you can't handle the "ring"? And yes, WT/WC has head and neck "throws and takedowns".
The "sleeper choke" or rear pull back choke is not origional to BJJ, grappling or MMA. (why they call it the "rear naked choke" I don't know, not sure if I really want to either. )
It's been around for a loooooooog time. They use some anti-grappling in here too. What you MMA guys like to call "ground and pound." lol! That's exactly what it is.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Can I just point out that Emin Bosteppi is trained in BJJ

Point being that Bosteppi is an advocate/creator of 'anti grappling' but the anti - grappling stuff has stemmed from BJJ, Judo and street training/experience

 

[MJS]

Can I just point out that Emin Bosteppi is trained in BJJ

Point being that Bosteppi is an advocate/creator of 'anti grappling' but the anti - grappling stuff has stemmed from BJJ, Judo and street training/experience

Question for you. Am I safe to assume that there is 'anti grappling' in other WC groups aside from Emins, or is this something just limited to Emin?

 

[MJS]

To MJS: the "sprawl" is not unique to BJJ or MMA. Chinese wrestling does something like this, JJJ we did variants of it, Zapota does it, etc...
The way he pins the guys head with the knees as he punches the ribs is akin to anti-grappling (only you'd chainpunch the back of the head and neck. He's following the rules of the sport by punching the sides of the head.)
The way he's always working to get back to his feet is true to anti-grappling concepts and intention.

I never said that it was limited to BJJ, however, you just listed a few grappling arts yourself, so in essance, you're proving my point for me....that much of the ground stuff that we see, is derived from some sort of grappling art. You will also notice, or maybe not, seeing that I've had to repeat myself more than a few times, that I've mentioned other grappling arts other than BJJ. You seem to harp on that, even though I've mentioned Judo, Sambo and Wrestling.

I've also commented that the 'anti grappling' is not limited to WC either. The 'dirty fighting' that you and I have talked about in this thread, is used in many arts. If we stop and think about it, if we look at the word 'anti' is means something that is against. So, the use of that is to avoid actually grappling. So you're using methods to avoid the takedown, methods to avoid a submission, etc. Watch Chuck Liddell. Amazing how he avoids the takedown. Watch the UFC fight with Maurice Smith and Mark Coleman. Amazing how Smith was not submitted and frustrated the hell out of Coleman. Both fighters, Chuck and Maurice, have ground experience. They're using their grappling knowledge (anti grappling) to avoid the ground and/or a submission. Its really no different than when I use a Kenpo defense to avoid the grappling attack.

I also think that this is pretty interesting. Hmm..looks like Boztepe is not against cross training. He lists TKD, Shotokan, MT, boxing, Turkish freestyle wrestling and Escrima.

I just found another video of him wrestling a guy in a ring. Don't know what that is about, guess he was competing in a wrestling match. He never hits the guy. bummer. painful.
But, until I can find a better example in the ring, he'll have to do.

Here's a WT guy in the yellow shorts.

Love the Russians! The guy in the Green shirt is VT, and fights what looks like a "non-compliant" MMA/MT style attacker. Doesn't get taken down. But...
VT dude needs that Dai Sau, he gets hit with hook punch EVERY time! I like the spinning back kick that led to a takedown. very nice. Make Si-Je happy.

I like this one too. Tell me if you train like this you can't handle the "ring"? And yes, WT/WC has head and neck "throws and takedowns".
The "sleeper choke" or rear pull back choke is not origional to BJJ, grappling or MMA. (why they call it the "rear naked choke" I don't know, not sure if I really want to either. )
It's been around for a loooooooog time. They use some anti-grappling in here too. What you MMA guys like to call "ground and pound." lol! That's exactly what it is.

Interesting clips.

 

[Si-Je]

You still just don't understand what anti-grappling is.
You don't grapple, you don't wrestle the opponent. That would be grappling.
I found this video today, it shows anti-grappling really well.

As for Emin "cross-training", he's been in MA for years. He studied turkish wrestling (well, he's turkish, makes sense.) TKD, Boxing, but those were at different times in his MA training. His self defense is soley based on WT and Escrima, says so in the very wikipedia article you just posted. As for BJJ training, he's said he trains with people that study BJJ. Now do you really think he actually signed up for BJJ classes at some BJJ dojo? With all the history he has with those guys? lol! That would be fun to see!

Here's some guys training to get out of head locks and armbars. Sensitivity training rolling on the floor with the head locks.

This one he punches the guy while he's on his back. Learn to punch from a short range. Has some different takedown defenses using stance, abduction, and footwork. cool video!

teaching you how to defend aganst the "clinch" or front bear hug, pre-emptive strike. They clinch they eat an elbow or two. You don't "clinch" them back, you don't wrestle them back, you strike, you flow, you re-direct. You MMA/BJJ guys can have the underhook position, I want my arms on top so I can elbow/strike the opponent. I'm not looking to hug them back. anti-grappling. From the underhook position you can't strike the head or much of anything. close quarters fighting. anti-grappling, striking at grappling range.

If you want to use BJJ or grappling at this range, that's your cup of tea. I take a striking art, and this flows with and complements my training in WT/WC better than using BJJ. I guess most people don't stay in WC/WT long enough to learn this range, I don't know. I've been studying for what? 3-4 years now and am just getting into this range for striking. (but, I had a pregnancy so a year off training) so, 2-3 years in WT/WC and getting into the good stuff and striking in grappling range.
You can add BJJ to your WC/WT fighting style. I like the anti-grappling.

 

[MJS]

You still just don't understand what anti-grappling is.
You don't grapple, you don't wrestle the opponent. That would be grappling.

And you still don't seem to understand that just because I talk about a grappling art, does not mean that in a real fight, I'd spend time looking to roll and trying to find a submission. I've said it before, yet you seem to miss it. The idea of working with a grappler, for me, is to better my Kenpo defenses against a grappler. As I've said many times before, if you look at my defense, it'll still look Kenpo, not BJJ. If I do end up on the ground, my goal is to do what I need to, to get back to my feet. Again, just because I crosstrain in BJJ, does not mean I'm turning it into a BJJ match. I would do just what you see in that clip....you find yourself in the mount...instead of looking for that armlock, punch, kick, stomp, elbow...whatever...and get back up.

Really, I don't know what the issue is here. Not quite sure why you are not getting this.

As for Emin "cross-training", he's been in MA for years. He studied turkish wrestling (well, he's turkish, makes sense.) TKD, Boxing, but those were at different times in his MA training. His self defense is soley based on WT and Escrima, says so in the very wikipedia article you just posted. As for BJJ training, he's said he trains with people that study BJJ. Now do you really think he actually signed up for BJJ classes at some BJJ dojo? With all the history he has with those guys? lol! That would be fun to see!

Fact of the matter is, is that he still crosstrained. He still looked at other arts. Of course, if he didn't find some value in the Escrima, why would he keep training and teaching it? Obviously he sees some value in it, as far as the weapons work goes. As for the BJJ...I never said that he joined a school. Man, you're still missing my point. He, like I, works with BJJ people. He does it probably to improve his 'anti grappling' and I do it to improve my Kenpo takedown/grappling techniques. Its the same thing. For the record, I haven't been to my BJJ gym in quite some time, yet I still get together with guys that grapple and train.

Here's some guys training to get out of head locks and armbars. Sensitivity training rolling on the floor with the head locks.

This one he punches the guy while he's on his back. Learn to punch from a short range. Has some different takedown defenses using stance, abduction, and footwork. cool video!

teaching you how to defend aganst the "clinch" or front bear hug, pre-emptive strike. They clinch they eat an elbow or two. You don't "clinch" them back, you don't wrestle them back, you strike, you flow, you re-direct. You MMA/BJJ guys can have the underhook position, I want my arms on top so I can elbow/strike the opponent. I'm not looking to hug them back. anti-grappling. From the underhook position you can't strike the head or much of anything. close quarters fighting. anti-grappling, striking at grappling range.

If you want to use BJJ or grappling at this range, that's your cup of tea. I take a striking art, and this flows with and complements my training in WT/WC better than using BJJ. I guess most people don't stay in WC/WT long enough to learn this range, I don't know. I've been studying for what? 3-4 years now and am just getting into this range for striking. (but, I had a pregnancy so a year off training) so, 2-3 years in WT/WC and getting into the good stuff and striking in grappling range.
You can add BJJ to your WC/WT fighting style. I like the anti-grappling.

Still missing my point. And really I don't know why, because at this point, it seems like you and I are more on the same page than it seems, yet I still think you're confusing what I'm saying. I simply crosstrain/reference to better my stand up art of Kenpo. Do I make time to just grapple? Sure. But, when I spar with my Kenpo teacher, we gear up and go at it...hard, with contact. He'll try to come in and clinch and I'll put the Kenpo principles to use, as well as use elbows, knees, etc. There are times when, for the sake of the training, I'll let him get me in the bear hug. Knees, elbows...you name it, it is all coming out.

I'm doing the exact same thing that you're suggesting. You're using your WC and I'm using my Kenpo...thats the only difference.

I'll have someone put me in the sidemount. I'll look for ways to use Kenpo. Never said it was easy, but I try. I may fall back on the BJJ escape for a moment, then its right back to the Kenpo.

Please, when you're reading this, take the time to really read and understand what I'm saying. Like I said, we are more on the same page than it seems.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Anti Grappling or Chin Na or what ever else you want to call it has always been apart of Wing Chun. Remember the early Wing Chun fighters fought various styles and people. So they always came up against wrestlers. I have posted some fights between wrestlers on here in the pass. So Wing Chun even before Yip Man has always included techniques for wrestlers and grapplers. In fact WC contains some grappling. We call it Judo(Take Downs) and Chin Na(Wrist and Arm Locks). Anyway the WC terms are different but I sharing words you all know about. But Wing Chun has always included counter to going to the ground before I was born.

But many people have studied other arts before they come to WC so many people have ground experience even before coming to WC. Which could be said about the five elders who created WC. Some wrestling or grappling was probably including then too.

 

[Nolerama]

Yoshiyahu, could you come by the gym and show us some of these techniques? I'm really interested in getting another perspective on anti grappling.