Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Si-Je]

I think ya'll are looking too much into Yoshi's questions. He's just asking a question, don't be so defensive.
I wonder sometimes why they train 2 or 3 striking styles and 2 or more "grappling" styles too. But, I guess it's to make sure they have everything covered in the ring.
Since their most likely to fight people with stronger backgrounds in many arts, i.e. judo, BJJ, JJJ, karate, MT, boxing, wrestling, etc.
I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it. Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!

 

[Steve]

It slows the Qi-Gong of the thread! LOL

This truly made me laugh out loud.

 

[MJS]

I think ya'll are looking too much into Yoshi's questions. He's just asking a question, don't be so defensive.

Looking too much?? Sorry, I don't think so. What I do see are a) strawman arguments, b) contradiction, c) repeatedly asking the same question, in some way, in an attempt to discredit what we say and justify what he says.

I wonder sometimes why they train 2 or 3 striking styles and 2 or more "grappling" styles too. But, I guess it's to make sure they have everything covered in the ring.
Since their most likely to fight people with stronger backgrounds in many arts, i.e. judo, BJJ, JJJ, karate, MT, boxing, wrestling, etc.
I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.

So in other words...WC would be able to come out on top of all of those other arts?

Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!

IIRC, wasn't he supposed to have some match at your school with someone? I thought I saw that somewhere in one of these threads.

 

[Si-Je]

The guy never showed. As usual.
He teaches every monday, wensday, and saturday, is always there.
And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.

This is the very core of the thread. BJJ similariaties and contrasts to WC, and the "apparent" need to supplement WC with BJJ.

He askes the questions because he wants to hear your responses, he wants to know why and how you think. You don't have to be so defensive about it. If he's trying to make a point that just like everyone on this thread, as well as this forum. We're here to discuss and make our points, to share information, opinions, facts, and speculate about theory and application.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

I think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it. Still waiting for our "extra cash" to flow in to get Sifu hubbie's medical, and resgistration, and licenseing paid for to get him a ring match. I'm really getting impatient! lol!

Lol me too! Since you say he will only use WC in the cage, can I ask you if he's considering to modify his WC for the cage? Even a little? And if, what does he intend to modify to adapt it to the cage? Could I ask you to PM me when a video is available? Would be grateful.

 

[Si-Je]

We will post the video on publicly and on YouTube.
He's not augmenting WC for the cage, just using more basic techniques same WC just not the nasty stuff. (eye gouging, groin shots, punching to the head and neck, etc.)
They allow enough in the "cage" to use most WC technique.

 

[MJS]

The guy never showed. As usual.
He teaches every monday, wensday, and saturday, is always there.

Hopefully something will work out.

And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.

So, here we see it again....WC being billed as the unbeatable, self defense art.

This is the very core of the thread. BJJ similariaties and contrasts to WC, and the "apparent" need to supplement WC with BJJ.

If you don't want to cross train, don't. Its really that simple, and I'm wondering why this thread has gone on for this long. People either want to do it or they don't.

He askes the questions because he wants to hear your responses, he wants to know why and how you think. You don't have to be so defensive about it. If he's trying to make a point that just like everyone on this thread, as well as this forum. We're here to discuss and make our points, to share information, opinions, facts, and speculate about theory and application.

And the reponses have been given....over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. Show me something that is new here in this thread. Its the same question asked, just worded slightly different. And if you can't see that, if you can't see the strawman argument he's trying to make, then I really don't know what to tell you.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!

And yeah, WC principles can handle all those other styles. IMHO. And in the experience of my Sifu.

So in other words...WC would be able to come out on top of all of those other arts?

think though, and it is still a "theory" that WC could and would be able to handle it.

Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?

 

[MJS]

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!








Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?

Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.

As for WC being used in the ring....I've never heard of any fighter using it, of course I may be wrong. Its usually the mix thats already been listed.

Said it before, I'll say it again...if you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you dont then don't. End of story.

 

[Steve]

Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.

I'll also add that you have a guy in Matt Hughes who took down and defeated Royce Gracie largely because Royce refused to admit that he needed more than BJJ to defeat a well rounded fighter. The whole thing came full circle.

 

[Si-Je]

Sigh...where to start. First, you seem to be under the assumption that a BB means you're unbeatable. I beg to differ. Keep in mind, that you had guys who devoted years to 1 art, get taken down and submitted by Royce in the UFC.

As for WC being used in the ring....I've never heard of any fighter using it, of course I may be wrong. Its usually the mix thats already been listed.

Said it before, I'll say it again...if you want to cross train, fine, do it. If you dont then don't. End of story.

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:

Seal the Deal again in the ring:

 

[Steve]

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:

Seal the Deal again in the ring:

This is interesting. Once again, it goes back to how one trains. One of the main guys on the rival website that you guys don't like to hear about on this one actually trains and instructs kung fu, and has been successful with it in the ring.

I guess I don't know enough about WC to be able to identify it in these videos. The first one looked like a good sprawl and power shots from the top. The second was pretty short... not a lot of time to see it. What am I missing?

 

[MJS]

Great clips! Thanks for posting those!

In the first clip, the only part that looked WC to me, was the beginning. After that, it seemed to me that it was sprawling/grappling positions. The 2nd clip, obviously alot shorter, had more of a WC feel to it.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know that guys training background? Is he just pure WC or has he crosstrained? If I had to guess, I'd say he has a grappling/wrestling background.

 

[jarrod]

this thread is still going? amazing.

fyi, i still like grappling.

jf

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:

Seal the Deal again in the ring:

Hey Si-Je, check this guy out: Wing Tsun in the ring:

Sorry, I couldn't find a shorter video of this fight But check his other fights too. He's an mma fighter(and not a bad one at all) who traines WC and tai chi among other things. In one of the youtube videos I've seen him do tai chi forms and WC. I've seen him do bong saos in the cage too.

And oh yea, being an mma fighter he probably had to combine groundfightind with WC so this is sort of on topic

Oh and check out his home page http://www.samiberik.com/hunsite.html. He's got a cool song playing about WC lol

 

[dungeonworks]

Well let me comment on WC being and unbeatable style...

First off all if fight for money in Thailand and you have been training in Muay Thai for like ten years and have plenty of experience of fighting various martial arts styles. Than your Muay Thai can handle every style thats out there. Of course someone with more skill than you can defeat you.

If you are skilled Karate guy who has fought both in the ring,cage,tournments and on street for ten years. An practice karate for twenty years than yes this guy can handle all styles no question about it. Now can he be beaten by someone with more skill yes...of course...But he can also win depending on strength,technique,speed,timing or just mere chance.


Now an extremly skilled WC guy who WC guy who has been training hard for six years. An he has the complete system and has also sparred many different fighters from different styles an also has been in numerous fights both one and one and five to one. This guy will be adept to handling every other style too. He doesn't need to cross train because he has refined his art an polished it with experience and combat. His refinements are found in combat. Now of course someone with more skill may be able to beat him from his own style or another style. But the main thing is if you train your art hard...test your art through combat. Then the qualifying statement!








Now my Question...I my self have studied a little Judo and Aikido and I did some sparring with the Judo instructor son. But that was just kick boxing.
So my training at first was two Grappling and one striking art. But then later on I started with Wing Chun. An also did a little hung gar later. Very little Hung gar and walking the circle from Bagua. Later on I started learning Tai Chi and started on Bagu Eight Palms form. But anyway my core is Wing Chun because I find it the most useful.


But in either case as the years progress I have studied a little bit from more striking arts and had WC as my primary fighting style.

Now the issue is why does it seem that Striking arts outnumber the grappling arts. Most of MMA guys I hear talking they all say its BJJ and Muay thai with WC. Or Wrestling with MT and Boxing?

Why is it seem that MT boxing and WC are the major arts used in MMA and BJJ and Greco Wrestling are the main arts they used?

Wing Chun is far Far FAR FAR MT, Greco, and wrestling yes, but Wing Chun???

I still do not understand why/how you think each fighter is a sole stylist of one single art and lacks the capability to utilize anything aside that inside each art. In Kung Fu movies and Video games, yes, you have many fighters like that (some can even throw balls of Chi!!!:BSmeter but in the modern world, you are going to have someone that likely has dabbled in one art or more before settling in one style or someone that cross trains in many.

 

[dungeonworks]

Wing Tsun in the ring: Sifu Grados of NY's fighter right here:

Seal the Deal again in the ring:

In the first video, where was the Wing Chun(legit question, NOT TROLLING!!!)??? I seen a very tense and hard/unrelaxed fighter use sprawl-n-brawl boxing with knees up the center, the only WC that I seen, but (that could be my WC inexperience). He was using a 50-50 stance and reeling waaaay back before throwing punches instead of structure being the source of his power. He finished the fight not too unlike anyother MMA guy ground and pounding his way to a TKO. To me, he looked like a powerful guy with a decent sprawl, heavy hands, and a knee to the head of an opponant always helps when they are on the ground, which is usually illegal in American MMA.

In the second one, I see him starting in a WC advancing stance, start to straight blast and finish with boxing. one-two punches into the straight blast he is using boxing footwork (for the most part) and reeling way back with his arms for power. Where was the Wing Chun? IMVHO, he looks like an MMA guy now training WC. Again, not trolling, I am asking where the Wing Chun is as I may have missed it due to my inexperience.

 

[dungeonworks]

this thread is still going? amazing.

fyi, i still like grappling.

jf

TROLL!!! (j/k! Meant sarcastically)

 

[dungeonworks]

Great clips! Thanks for posting those!

In the first clip, the only part that looked WC to me, was the beginning. After that, it seemed to me that it was sprawling/grappling positions. The 2nd clip, obviously alot shorter, had more of a WC feel to it.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know that guys training background? Is he just pure WC or has he crosstrained? If I had to guess, I'd say he has a grappling/wrestling background.

Hmmm....it's odd that I read this after watching those videos and came up with a similar conclusion. The 18 second KO victim also looked like a 155 lb fighter that forgot to cut down from 250 lbs! Dude would be better if he cut off that weight and fought lighter.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Can I just point out that Grados students cross train (ie are taught all areas of martial arts)
If you type grappling and grados into youtube, one of his top students actually talks about the need to improve his ground game

I think the whole thing has moved into the 'wing chun needs BJJ' area which is not the point. We are focusing on BJJ too much

Wing chun needs a ground game. If you are happy 'anti grapling' then fine, but your martial art technique will be STRONGER with a good art such as BJJ, Judo or catch wrestling. Rather than trying to make your art 'fit' into an unknown area, learn the basics of an art that is the best at that area

Wing chun is extremely good upright, but it is not flawless

There will be times when you are dragged to the floor or fall to the floor etc. That is undesputable. People are thinking very 2 dimensionally - two fighters at either side of the ring. Of course in that situation it will be hard for a wing chun person to be taken down. I am talking in crowded bars in a streetfight, where there are obstacles, people etc. I have lost count the number of times I have gone to ground unwillingly - and I have good footing and good stancework

Why paint a picture in black and white when you can add other colours?