Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Si-Je]

My fantasy was about the same.

I just had that vision of one of those WC demos where the WC guy makes his slick move and unloads this massive succession of 25 chain punches all landing on vital targets while his opponent is frozen in place and cannot move nor make any attempt at covering, swiming in, stepping offline, going for underhooks or dropping down into a single/double leg take down, etc. None of that.

When do I get to learn the stuff that allows me to do this? :vu:

Your funny! lol!
Demos are demos, training is different. Sparring is different. You will learn to move with your opponent, no matter where they go, or what they try to do.
A guy shoots into your legs or hips those vital spots are exposed by the very nature of the shoot in. The back of the neck, head, knee to the face, etc. Alot of those people in the demos don't move much because they learn really quick that if they do it just makes it worse and more painful for them.
We've had students come in from MMA and other arts, even grappling that love to shoot in on Sifu. At the first couple of attempts they come in really hard and struggle and fight with everything they've got to get ahold of him, but after a couple of "sessions" of that, they ease up. They find that the harder and faster they shoot in the harder they get hit.
Simple physics:
The inertia and velosity of Sifu's incoming punches are doubled by the incoming inertia and velosity of the attackers shoot in, takedown, clinch, or strike. Added by the mass and body weight of both Sifu and the Attacker.
Pow! and Ouch!
Inertia x mass = power + the inertia x mass of Sifu's attack = double the power.

 

[MJS]

Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music )

How much do you really know about boxing? Yes, there are a typical set of punches that they use, ie: jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc., however, there is are endless combos of those punches that can be put together. I would say its very difficult to study every pattern and assume that you would know what would be coming next.

 

[Si-Je]

How much do you really know about boxing? Yes, there are a typical set of punches that they use, ie: jab, cross, hook, upper cut, etc., however, there is are endless combos of those punches that can be put together. I would say its very difficult to study every pattern and assume that you would know what would be coming next.

Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.

 

[MJS]

Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.
WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.
You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.
"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.
By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.
Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.

You stated that boxers use set patterns. I stated that is not true. However, I do agree that we will not know the type of fighter we face until the fight begins to unfold. On the other hand, once it unfolds, it should begin to be apparent what type of fighter you're facing. Just another reason why I like to work with various people.

 

[Si-Je]

You stated that boxers use set patterns. I stated that is not true. However, I do agree that we will not know the type of fighter we face until the fight begins to unfold. On the other hand, once it unfolds, it should begin to be apparent what type of fighter you're facing. Just another reason why I like to work with various people.

Working with as many different stylist is great, and I enjoy doing that as well.
I've known several boxers that have very set and preferred patterns they use when they box, whether they realize it or not. In fact isn't that exactly what a corner man is there to point out to a fighter in the ring? To notice, reconize and tell their fighter the patterns the other boxer is falling into?
Well, many stylists fall into this in many arts, even WT/WC. It's just the goal not to do patterns, set combos, etc.
By the way, my dad taught me boxing as a kiddo from when he boxed in the U.S. Navy. There was alot of set positions, and set techniques, and combos. Combos for after you "block" or "cover" from a jab or hook, punch combos, pre set stance "combos" to bait and distract or confuse the opponent.
That's what he taught me, maybe they don't train boxing that way anymore. But, everytime I watch a match, after about 5 minutes into the fight I can predict pretty well what each fighter will do. I can see the patterns they prefer and they telegraph alot to me. MMA is the same way too. Although, they do get more creative because they can do more and use more technique. (I think that's what I like best about MMA fighters, their ability to adapt on the fly and their creativity in their individual styles)

I'm babbling, sorry. lol!
anyways, WC don't anticipate the style, skill set, technique or intentions of the opponent. Accept what comes, respond instictively and accordingly.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting and true...wow...i was just speaking about this. Yea. one can cross train in Muay Thai, Boxing and Tae Kwon Do. That won't prepare you for a karate fighter or other striker. Just because you know a little about MT Boxing and TKD doesn't make you ready to fight other strikers. It just gives you and idea of whats done in the styles you studied. But if your a yellow belt or green belt in karate and a black belt in TKD are you really ready and knowledgable enough to know what a Old stlye Karate guy is going to do who holds a 3rd degree black belt?
Yea if I study Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. Will I really be prepared and know how to defend against Japanese Jiujitsu master or a Judo master? wouldn't I have to study their art too an learn the basics.

I think the best way to be prepared to fight people of other styles is to spar with them alot. spar people of different skill sets and ranks from various styles. That way you have experience in adjusting and adapting your own prime art to what ever situtation you encounter...

I mean really. the whole idea to defeat a grappler you need to study grappling...An the same doesn't apply for strikers. With strikers most people say well you do this and that against kicker or boxer. But when it comes to grappling you need to study a grappling art?

1.So if your going to fight a Judo person do you need to cross train judo?

2.So if your going to fight a shoot wrestler do you need to cross train shoot wrestling?

3.So if your going to fight a Sambo fighter do you need to cross train Sambo?

4.So if your going to fight a greco roman wrestler do you need to cross train GReco wrestling??

Just a basic question please answer anybody?

Don't have to. We don't do combos. We don't allow combos to be completed. Different approach to fighting than most other styles.

WC/WT's not worried about studying what an opponent "might" do or what their combo looks like. You won't know anyway in the street no matter how much you crosstrain.

You go forward, engage, respond, deflect, strike, kick, attack their structure, follow through, flow, and don't anticipate anything.
Simotaneously, no rythum, no combo, no set positions or preplaned format.

"do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement." Bruce Lee.
Basic WC concepts, basic Tao.

By NOT anticipating, you are able to accept what comes and respond accordingly without over analyzing and thinking. Reflexive. Reactive. The true origion of WC/WT's famous "speed". Shortest distance between two points taken in striking and kicking will make you faster even if the other opponent is physically faster than you. If they take a "longer route" you will still get there faster.

Act with the intention to hit always no matter what the oponent does, and you WILL hit the opponent.

 

[MJS]

Very interesting and true...wow...i was just speaking about this. Yea. one can cross train in Muay Thai, Boxing and Tae Kwon Do. That won't prepare you for a karate fighter or other striker. Just because you know a little about MT Boxing and TKD doesn't make you ready to fight other strikers. It just gives you and idea of whats done in the styles you studied. But if your a yellow belt or green belt in karate and a black belt in TKD are you really ready and knowledgable enough to know what a Old stlye Karate guy is going to do who holds a 3rd degree black belt?
Yea if I study Muay Thai, Boxing and BJJ. Will I really be prepared and know how to defend against Japanese Jiujitsu master or a Judo master? wouldn't I have to study their art too an learn the basics.

Sigh..I had a long post prepared, but opted not to post it...why bother. Sounds like you're attempting another strawman with this post.

I think the best way to be prepared to fight people of other styles is to spar with them alot. spar people of different skill sets and ranks from various styles. That way you have experience in adjusting and adapting your own prime art to what ever situtation you encounter...

Preach it baby, preach it!! I guess you've missed the dozen or so times I've said the same thing.

I mean really. the whole idea to defeat a grappler you need to study grappling...An the same doesn't apply for strikers. With strikers most people say well you do this and that against kicker or boxer. But when it comes to grappling you need to study a grappling art?

What the hell are you talking about???? Look back to the first UFC. Look at the one style fighters that fought grapplers. How did they do?

1.So if your going to fight a Judo person do you need to cross train judo?

2.So if your going to fight a shoot wrestler do you need to cross train shoot wrestling?

3.So if your going to fight a Sambo fighter do you need to cross train Sambo?

4.So if your going to fight a greco roman wrestler do you need to cross train GReco wrestling??

Just a basic question please answer anybody?

Are you being serious here or just trolling?? Just a basic question, so please answer.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for your post..so true exactly what I mean. Most competive boxers do use set one two or 1,2,3 or even 1,2,3,4 combos. Really good boxers can pull 1,2,3,4,5 and sometimes 6 and 7 strike combos. I don't about more than that. But that same boxer will use other items in the street. If that same boxer is in the street he will us elbows,head butts, groin shots,push, grab back of the neck an punch the face, grab the head with weaker hand an smash the nose with the other hand. In the ring grabbing is not allowed in boxing competitions. But the bare handed boxer fights different in the street. There are even basic blocks some boxers might use along with a variation of pak sau. In the hood its called slap boxing. But its not taught much in the hood. My mother and older cousins share a little boxing with me as a kid. I picked up more as i got older. But boxing in the street encompasses much more than the rules you see in the ring. An often illegal moves not used in ring are allowed in the clinch in the street. Boxers also use take downs and grapplings and I even seen one boxer use a knee strike in street fight.

But I disagree on some points. I have seen some boxers who have contious flow from punching to bobbing and weaving. But your right not many utilize flow anymore. They mostly do combos and back off. But that same boxer in a street fight will not use combos alone but flow contiously. Unless he can knock out the opponent.

As for gaining a clinch. If your fighting a guy who is use to hitting heavy bag weighing 200lbs a day, Punching a wall bag filled with iron shots, hitting a 70lb wooden man everyday.Kicking a tree along with a heavy bag. An the guy is loose, relax, calm as well as continously striking with the power to make a 70lbs wooden man shake off the floor with each block, move a heavy bag filled with sand in the air with each strike and kick and make a solid brick wall tremble from hitting a wall bag filled with shots. I think if he is punching your head or kidneys with out gaps or breaks it would be difficult to shoot in the clinch when his elbows or fist fly towards your chin,nose,throat and kidneys?

I could be wrong though.

Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music )

It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.

Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation

WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.

1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.

If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?

Sigh..I had a long post prepared, but opted not to post it...why bother. Sounds like you're attempting another strawman with this post.



Preach it baby, preach it!! I guess you've missed the dozen or so times I've said the same thing.



What the hell are you talking about???? Look back to the first UFC. Look at the one style fighters that fought grapplers. How did they do?



Are you being serious here or just trolling?? Just a basic question, so please answer.

 

[dungeonworks]

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?

You got that backwards. Most fighters study BJJ and wrestling for the ground work and rely on Muay Thai for stand up. That is a broad generalization of the styles employed in modern MMA competition. A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre. Although he came from Kyokushin Karate background, he has since stuck with the three styles mentioned...and made it work.

 

[MJS]

I have a question? why do MMA guys usually train one grappling art and two or more striking arts?

Dungeonworks summed it up.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre.

He's one of my favorite MMA fighters

 

[Yoshiyahu]

What three styles does Georges St. Pierre practice?

You got that backwards. Most fighters study BJJ and wrestling for the ground work and rely on Muay Thai for stand up. That is a broad generalization of the styles employed in modern MMA competition. A perfect example of this type fighter would be welterweight champ Georges St. Pierre. Although he came from Kyokushin Karate background, he has since stuck with the three styles mentioned...and made it work.

 

[Steve]

What three styles does Georges St. Pierre practice?

GSP started with a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, and has since earned a black belt in BJJ along with training western boxing, muay thai and wrestling.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...

GSP started with a black belt in Kyokushin Karate, and has since earned a black belt in BJJ along with training western boxing, muay thai and wrestling.

 

[MJS]

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...

And your point is??

 

[Yoshiyahu]

More study towards striking was my point?

And your point is??

 

[Steve]

I franklt don't know for sure. I threw out what I'm confident he trains in but be could work in anything.

But I am sure that the line if reasoning troubles me a little. I think too much emphasis is being given to counting styles. It seems to me to be an oversimplification.

Honestly, I'm not sure how useful it is to use GSP or any athlete of that caliber as the bar. It woud be like using Bruce Lee as an example of the average WC student. Both are/were far from average.

 

[MJS]

More study towards striking was my point?

Ok. I was just wondering if you were leading up to anything else with that. IE: striking is more important than grappling and proof is because GSP does x number of stand up arts vs x number of grappling.

Now, if we look at someone like Chuck, we'll see primarily a stand up striker, however, he does have a grappling background, and IMO, uses it pretty effectively. My point...without that, he'd most likely not have as much success defending against other grapplers.

 

[dungeonworks]

Okay so he has

Three striking styles?
Two grappling styles?


More in striking than grappling...

He started out Kyokushin Karate before MMA ever heard of the guy called GSP (Georges St. Pierre). Their is a series on Spike channel that shows in depth footage and interviews with him, his trainers, and the same for his upcoming opponent BJ Penn.

He presently trains MUAY THAI AT THE TRISTAR GYM, WRESTLING WITH CANADIAN OLYMPIC TEAM, and BRAZILLIAN JIUJITSU....2 GRAPPLING and ONE STRIKING ART.

Now, in the past, yes, he like sooooo many other MMA pro's come from several arts and styles. Styles do not mean diddly squat in MMA or on the street.

Please quit trying to load these questions in your feable attempts to twist others answers to fit what you want everyone to agree with. It slows the Qi-Gong of the thread! LOL