Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =
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Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
Well He said that they were sports...He didnt clarify they were ever used as self defense?
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
I think all Japanese arts can be considered a self defense art because at one time they were used in actual combat.
I suppose Kendo and Naginatajutsu are common sport activites for youth.
Usually Naginata classes are for girls like junior high.
The term Goshin and Jissen come to mind when talking self defense in Japanese arts. Goshin meaning self defense and Jissen meaning real or reality hardcore something like that.
The Japanese view learning martial arts to strengthen your mind and spirit.
They think Americans are only interested in fighting. So the idea behind why Japanese practice martial arts is more strenghtening mind.body spirit,discipine then self defense. I can not speak for all Japanese or Americans only based on my experience.
It seems that in the oriental culture spirituality and training the body for self defense went hand and hand. Americans separate the two, I think.
I don't really understand your question?
Are you asking for Korean/Japanese arts that are ONLY used in sports, or arts that are used in both self defence and sports
You get sport karate. but at its core is good self defence. A GOOD karate instructor will distinguish the difference between moves used for clicker (sport) tournaments and moves used for practical self defence
Aikido has many practical self defence techniques, but sadly the ones I have seen rely too much on a person grabbing you a certain way
I once had a wing chun student who was an instructor of Aikido. I asked him to show me some concepts/moves and he asked me to grab his wrist. Then he told me I wasn't grabbing him right. It took about four attempts to get the right hold on him for a move to work. I wasn't being troublesome and was genuinally trying to assist.
Obviously, no matter what art you train you will get people who are exceptionally good, but I just find that generally the best self defence arts are usually wing chun, BJJ, Muay Thai, karate, and if I've forgotten soem then I apologise
Also (and I haven't forgotten) boxing. A good boxer will know how to hit very very hard. The only reason I wouldn't classify it as being with one of the great self defence arts is that it does rely a lot on weight and size (ie a light boxer will have next to no chance against someone who weighs three times his weight). The same could be said for muay Thai, although there are a few moves that a lightweight MT guy could pull off that would topple a bigger guy
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
I agree...To me Muay Thai, Karate and Wing Chun I feel are great Martial Defense. I took Akido...As a Kid. But it wasn't much use. Now Judo had more use when I was in Junior High but not really. An in my high school days there was no use for grappling arts. Fights go to fast to try to tumble someone bigger than me to ground. So WC was a clear choice for me. Next would have been Karate or Boxing.
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
I think if you use something like Judo along with Offensive art it can be beneficial.
Judo, Tai Chi, Wrestling, BJJ, Aikido and JiuJitsu are more defensive arts. Where Karate boxing and WC are more offensive and attacking arts.
Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?
Judo, Tai Chi, Wrestling, BJJ, Aikido and JiuJitsu are more defensive arts. Where Karate boxing and WC are more offensive and attacking arts.
Its kinda of hard to throw a guy who is throwing lighting fast punches trying to knock your head off?
dungeonworks
Black Belt
It can be until one punch misses, he gets wrapped up and: slammed by a wrestler, thrown by Judoka, or hauled down by a BJJ player. At this point it is all about who can force who's game on the other.
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
That is where timing and distancing take place and knowing how to clinch.
Once you are in a clinch you can work knees and then work on setting up your throw. Also if he is aiming for strikes to the face you can go for a takedown at his legs. Lots of nasty tricks you can use.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
I think I see what you mean. Tae Kwon Do (Tang Soo Do) would be Korean arts used in sport competition now. Japanese arts used in sport: Judo (olympic) Kendo, basic Karate (they compete mainly punching the chest not the face), Shoot fighting.
Some Korean SD arts not in sport (that I know of) Hapkido would be a good SD art, mean stuff.
Japanese SD: Aikido would be a good SD art, but you'd have to train it for a while to get proficient with it. Aiki Ju-Jitsu (has all Judo throws, chokes, ground fighting, standing escapes, weapons, and striking very well rounded style. Samori class fighting style), Ninjitsu (If you can find the real deal, lol!), Kempo Karate (Okinawian) for SD, I don't know if they compete in sport, but I'm sure they do.
Many arts can be easily converted to sport competition.
Even WC/WT.
Eru Ilúvatar
Blue Belt
Hapkido is thought as a part of the TKD curiculum. At least I was thought that way not realy sure if it's so with other schools too though. We had to know elements of hapkido for each belt test and had to use them in a application. Mostly: a guy grabs you and you this and that.
Not really, otherwise clinches would never happen in boxing nor MT.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music
)It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.
Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation
WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.
1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.
If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.
Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music
It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.
Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation
WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.
1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.
If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.
My fantasy was about the same.
I just had that vision of one of those WC demos where the WC guy makes his slick move and unloads this massive succession of 25 chain punches all landing on vital targets while his opponent is frozen in place and cannot move nor make any attempt at covering, swiming in, stepping offline, going for underhooks or dropping down into a single/double leg take down, etc. None of that.
When do I get to learn the stuff that allows me to do this? :vu:
Clinches are extremely common
I would say that around 70% of all streetfights inolve some sort of clinch, whether it be a person grabbing a t-shirt or a more defined clinch.
The best thing o watch or programmes on TV where they show CCTV footage of nightclub brawls
('Police, Camera, Action' or 'Bouncers'). Because people are so fuelled on aggression the natural reaction is to grab and rip and tear at your opponent, not to stand in an excellent stance and shoot out lightning fast punches. Admittedly that does happen from time to time (see the classic boxer vs happy slapper on youtube for example), but it is rare
My friend who is a sensei in karate (full contact karate) was done over in a nightclub once because the person came at him like a steam train and caught him off guard. Even though my friend was faster and more skilled, he wasn't ready for clinching and raw aggression
You also have to think about room. In formats such as boxing, you often train/fight in a ring giving you amples of space to move around. In a nightclub, even though the crowd often parts, you are still confined and bound to trip over peoples legs or be backed into/up against the bar
I'm glad to say that wing chun works exceptionally well in clinchwork situations - even better than boxing, because we can strike from that small distance, whereas boxers aren't as experienced at that (ie the ref has to seperate them in those situations)
Master Chan is a master at clinchwork, but this hasn't come from BJJ - it is wing chun that he utilizes to map, fold and use the clinch against the opponent
I am hoping that he does a clinchwork DVD in the near future because I have never seen anyone do anything like it
I mean, everyone does clinchwork, but it is all about breaking away from the clinch or 'getting out of' the clinch, which is a bad mentality
If you try to break out of a clinch, your opponent is also free to hit you or re-engage a grab. If, however, you leave the grab where it is and work round it in a relaxed way, your opponent will often not have a chance
For the UK guys - get down on a Monday to the Kamon Croydon class (in Surrey) You can come in and sit down, and Master Chan will answer any questions on this subject
I think after that, you will not dispute the need for clinchwork or basic grappling knowledge
Peace out
I would say that around 70% of all streetfights inolve some sort of clinch, whether it be a person grabbing a t-shirt or a more defined clinch.
The best thing o watch or programmes on TV where they show CCTV footage of nightclub brawls
('Police, Camera, Action' or 'Bouncers'). Because people are so fuelled on aggression the natural reaction is to grab and rip and tear at your opponent, not to stand in an excellent stance and shoot out lightning fast punches. Admittedly that does happen from time to time (see the classic boxer vs happy slapper on youtube for example), but it is rare
My friend who is a sensei in karate (full contact karate) was done over in a nightclub once because the person came at him like a steam train and caught him off guard. Even though my friend was faster and more skilled, he wasn't ready for clinching and raw aggression
You also have to think about room. In formats such as boxing, you often train/fight in a ring giving you amples of space to move around. In a nightclub, even though the crowd often parts, you are still confined and bound to trip over peoples legs or be backed into/up against the bar
I'm glad to say that wing chun works exceptionally well in clinchwork situations - even better than boxing, because we can strike from that small distance, whereas boxers aren't as experienced at that (ie the ref has to seperate them in those situations)
Master Chan is a master at clinchwork, but this hasn't come from BJJ - it is wing chun that he utilizes to map, fold and use the clinch against the opponent
I am hoping that he does a clinchwork DVD in the near future because I have never seen anyone do anything like it
I mean, everyone does clinchwork, but it is all about breaking away from the clinch or 'getting out of' the clinch, which is a bad mentality
If you try to break out of a clinch, your opponent is also free to hit you or re-engage a grab. If, however, you leave the grab where it is and work round it in a relaxed way, your opponent will often not have a chance
For the UK guys - get down on a Monday to the Kamon Croydon class (in Surrey) You can come in and sit down, and Master Chan will answer any questions on this subject
I think after that, you will not dispute the need for clinchwork or basic grappling knowledge
Peace out
dungeonworks
Black Belt
Boxing and MT utilize set patterns and combinations that allow an opponent to study the pattern and time the next strike.
WC/WT does not. It's more like "broken rythum" (I'm a music major, lol! WT/WC is all music to me. More like Jazz improvization than any other style of music
It's continious flowing from one strike to another using punches, knees, elbows, chops, forearm "shivers", palm striking, shoulder "bumps" or strikes, and kicking all flowing and simoltaneously attacking and defending.
Boxing and MT utilize 1.2.3. movements.
1. block or dodge as you move backwards
2. move forward and strike or kick
3. follow up with combonation
WT/WC combines these three moments into one motion.
1. moving into attacker, punching, kicking, and deflecting at the same time, then flowing from there to the next strike on and on until opponent is finished. You never stop, you never go back, you never break contact with opponent to "regroup" and attempt another strategy.
This barrage of attack is extremely difficult to find the "timing" to shoot in for a clinch or takedown if done properly. For there is no break in time from one movement to the next. Once the WT/WC practitioner moves to defend or attack (each is the same movement and philosophy for they ARE the cause and result of the other-Lao Tzu) they never pause, or stop from one techniuqe to the next.
Kempo Karate in the more advanced levels do this alot too. With continious striking there is no readable combination to time your chance to shoot in. Only constant striking to the opponent's face, neck, knee, groin, eyes, temple, throat, ribs, kidneys, etc. on and on and on until the opponent is defeated.
If a stylist can take 5-25 multiple punches to the head (depending on the speed and skill of the WC/WT practitioner) and still manage to get in close enough to clinch or grapple then still most of the power of the takedown or clinch is negated and weakened, making the effectiveness of the throw or whatever less well,.. effective.
That is what Yoshi is meaning, I believe. When he states that it is hard to clinch or throw someone who is trying to knock your head off striking.
I agree with you to a point, but you are making an assumption that the boxer/MT fighter is aimlessly tossing out combinations in hopes something will hit. This is inacurate. There is a degree of sensitivity and judgement boxers and MT fighters use before the commit to such attacks and entirely dismisses the fact that they will poke and feel with smaller techniques such as jabs and fakes (body movement, punches, and or kicks). If it were so simple, they would be easily dispatched, but it isn't so they aren't. Wing Chun makes it easier to jam and befuddle a boxer or MT practitioner but is not always failsafe against such styles. In otherwords, MT and boxing has some well enough fakes to "bait" others into their realm as well. They do not throw the same comninations every time and are very able to change them up at will.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
While western boxing has limited clinch work, striking from the clinch with knees, elbows and fists is a big part of Muay Thai, and as a result has worked its way into MMA competitions, as well. You'll also often see foot stomps and kicks with the heel from within the clinch. It's often referred to as "dirty boxing" but isn't really. It's just fighting from the clinch.
I'm not saying that WC is bad or doesn't include clinch fighting. I'm simply pointing out that there are other tactics and disciplines also incorporating striking at the clinch range.
I'm not saying that WC is bad or doesn't include clinch fighting. I'm simply pointing out that there are other tactics and disciplines also incorporating striking at the clinch range.
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