Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

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Yoshiyahu said:
Well I think TKD is just like BJJ. It right now is rather one sided. But TKD unlike BJJ is not one sided in its traditional form. Plus what is BJJ but Brazilian JiuJitsu.
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Can you explain this a little more? I'm not sure I understand your point. BJJ is as one sided as WC, and of course it's Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. What is WC but Wing Chun?
 
If you're asking if I think BJJ + TKD is a good mix, I would answer heck yes. TKD kicks against a good grappler is likely going to the ground if he misses a kick or has it caught. BJJ would be a nice tool box for the TKD guy to transition to.
 
Yea thats what I am saying!!!

dungeonworks said:
If you're asking if I think BJJ + TKD is a good mix, I would answer heck yes. TKD kicks against a good grappler is likely going to the ground if he misses a kick or has it caught. BJJ would be a nice tool box for the TKD guy to transition to.
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Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport
 
Si-Je said:
To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading. I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.
Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time. This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner. If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.
Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap? Is this a viable way to train to defend oneself in the street? This is all debateable. And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.
Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.
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Nonsense. You have cross trained, simple as that. Any person who has done more than one art and done them well has cross trained. MMA guys usually only train certain martial arts for a couple of months and move on. True, that they usually start out with some kind of foundation art, but have to work on all areas in order to get into the cage

I originally trained in karate for seven years, then went into boxing, ninjitsu, escrima, TKD, wrestling and a couple of others whilst I as going through high school. Then I started Kamon wing chun and never looked back. I wouldn't say that I have mastered the art, but it has certainly been the art that gave me foundations
I would never reccomend that a beginner (someone who has trained for 3 years or less) should start going into other martial arts, but certainly once you are confident with your wing chun and are merely perfecting what you have already learnt, you should start looking at other styles and do them in a very relaxed way (ie once a week)

To become good at self defence, you must have all areas covered. Groundwork is part of that. I think people misconceive the idea that if they go to ground then they wrap themselves into clinches until they get a submission. I'm not talking about that. I am talking abou understanding the basic principles so that if someone gets on top of you, you aren't going to panic and try to a pathetic flurry of chain punches while some brute hammers down on you

You merely need to know how to recover from those kind of situations until you find yourself back in a dominant position where you can use your most powerful weapon - wing chun. Even if the person is a good grappler it will not matter. I have sparred with purple, brown and black belts and whilst I could never even dream of out grappling them (even with my size/strength), I know that I could get them into a position where I would at least I have a chance of using my wing chun.

So many people on these forums worry about destroying the purity of their art. That is nonsense. Most of the martial arts we see today (including wing chun) has been modified, adpated and made much more efficient.

I would like to think that had ip Man been alive today, he would have admitted interest in the grappling game (maybe he was, who knows)
 
Kamon Guy said:
Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport
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Kamon, don't know if you were directing this my way or not. What I said is that TKD would be good for a BJJ guy. It'd be a good bridge to the ground or at distance. I had a few guys in my old TKD school that could use it very well, which brings me to my other point....some are a natural fit for TKD, others have to REALLY work at it, and some will really work at it and never be adept with it. I fall somewhere between the last two regarding TKD. I been out of TKD now since about 1995 as I thought it had nothing else to offer aside the flexability and kicks I still have today and that the Koei-Kan Karate did (full contact sparring, better hands, throws, some grappling, locks...ect). It was much better fit for me and my body frame. Koei-Kan is an ecclectic Karate consisting of Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan styles. If you have it near you, it is worth a look.

What Karate are you training, Ashihara???
 
It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack
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Indeed that was very funy :) I like watching good TKD matches tho.
 
Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?

Kamon Guy said:
Oh dear I'm starting to see why there is a confusion about BJJ

If you truly think that TKD is a good self defence art, then you really need to get out into the proper martial arts arena

It is a sport. Nothing else. The farce at the Olympics should have shown that. Especially, when one of the fighters went to knock out the referee because he was disqualified and the referee merely shrugged at his attack

I trained various different versiosn of TKD, and each one ws just as poor as the other. Yes, if you are standing still and let the guy do a kick to your head, its going to hurt, but that was the problem, when we trained full sparring (any style vs any style) it was a lot of fun. As soon as distance closed, they didn't knwo what to do. And most of the long range stuff was very easy to get out of the way of

I currently train in karate, which whilst quite 'solid/fixed' has a lot more power, depth, no flamboyant kicks or over energetic punches
It is a much better fit for my long range game. And I have chosen a karate style that you don't need to put strength into it, so it fits well into my wing chun

Don't get me wrong - every martial art style has its place, but I have a real problem with people claiming TKD to be a good self defence style. It is like me trying to say that wing chun is a great sport
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Yoshiyahu said:
Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?
Click to expand...

Was Hijacking a Wing Chun + BJJ threads with irrelevant Tae Kwon Do questions without purpose?

Also, would you say your answering questions without adding insight as to why you ask those questions is useful or has any purpose other than to derail this thread?

Also, would you say your Tae Kwon Do questions would be useful in a separate thread?
 
I have no idea what your talking about right now?

dungeonworks said:
Was Hijacking a Wing Chun + BJJ threads with irrelevant Tae Kwon Do questions without purpose?

Also, would you say your answering questions without adding insight as to why you ask those questions is useful or has any purpose other than to derail this thread?

Also, would you say your Tae Kwon Do questions would be useful in a separate thread?
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dungeonworks said:
What Karate are you training, Ashihara???
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It is a slight variation of Kyukoshinkai karate
My sensai teaches full contact but emphasises a lot on not always blocking block for block (ie don't use strength vs strength)

He is a very good instructor and knows the difference between what will work and what won't (ie when we do stancework, he explains that its just to train the legs and not a practical self defence stance)
 
Yoshiyahu said:
Was TKD always a sport or was it once a self defence.

Also Did old TKD utilize more real fighting aspects oppose sports sparring?

Also would you say TKD would be useful in a street fight?
Click to expand...

I will answer this quick, but if you have more questions relayed to TKD, let's move the thread, or just PM me

All martial arts have certain movements that can in theory be used in anything. You could, if forced, find a way to make wing chun a sport (indeed there are a few chi sao tournaments that fly about)

Similarly (as I said) if you catch an opponent off guard with a roundhouse kick, you are going to hurt them. Yet, my point was that there are far far better arts to use for self defence than TKD

Every TKD demo I have seen related to self defence has been fixed drills and the opponent had to be doing a certain technique. Whereas in wing chun for example, i can ask my students to throw in ANY attack and I will deal with it. Not always brilliantly, but I will deal with it nonetheless. Most TKD guys fall apart if you grab them

I have done a lot of TKD and CKD and in all honesty the only thing I took away from it was the fitness from the sparring. Everything else I learnt better and quicker elsewhere

I'm not trying to bash TKD, like Dungeonworks said - there are people in the world who want to do martial arts with sparring without getting a serious pounding. Its fun and active, but I wouldn't say it is an art designed for self defence

As I mentioned before - just look at the Olympics...
 
Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?


Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques?

How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?



Kamon Guy said:
I will answer this quick, but if you have more questions relayed to TKD, let's move the thread, or just PM me

All martial arts have certain movements that can in theory be used in anything. You could, if forced, find a way to make wing chun a sport (indeed there are a few chi sao tournaments that fly about)

Similarly (as I said) if you catch an opponent off guard with a roundhouse kick, you are going to hurt them. Yet, my point was that there are far far better arts to use for self defence than TKD

Every TKD demo I have seen related to self defence has been fixed drills and the opponent had to be doing a certain technique. Whereas in wing chun for example, i can ask my students to throw in ANY attack and I will deal with it. Not always brilliantly, but I will deal with it nonetheless. Most TKD guys fall apart if you grab them

I have done a lot of TKD and CKD and in all honesty the only thing I took away from it was the fitness from the sparring. Everything else I learnt better and quicker elsewhere

I'm not trying to bash TKD, like Dungeonworks said - there are people in the world who want to do martial arts with sparring without getting a serious pounding. Its fun and active, but I wouldn't say it is an art designed for self defence

As I mentioned before - just look at the Olympics...
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I know this wasn't asked of me but here's my two cents.

Yoshiyahu said:
Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?
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It totally depends how one trains and what they want out of the art of BJJ. You can add throat grabs, eye gouges, groin strikes/grabs...ect. It's also a popular sport and if one is training solely for sport, only a little on the fly improvisation of natural tendencies in a self defense situation is really needed for the most part, IMVHO. Here in MI, if you are attacked outside right now where the ground is covered in ice, the fight is going on the ground. Someone will slip and fall pretty easily which only gives advantage to any grapple art. Heck, even brawlers would likely goto the ground, it's NASTY outside and below 0 F!


Yoshiyahu said:
Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques?
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No, but it will build stamina that is very different from the stamina type you get from striking styles. I learned that the first time on the mat! LOL Anaerobic stamina? Is that the word I am looking for? VERY important to sport or self defense.

Yoshiyahu said:
How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?
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Badly in most cases. The first or within the first few head kick attempts and he'd likely be taken right to the ground and hurt in most any situation or surface. See any of the Gracie's In Action series to see what I mean.
 
Yoshiyahu said:
Would you say BJJ is more of sport or self defense in your opinion?
Click to expand...
It is both.
Some people train purely for sport
Others train it purely for self defence

They often split the art into gi and no gi training with the no gi training more of a practical session

Things like arm bars etc, whilst effective, are dangerous to perform in the street because they take time and the best result by doing it is a snapped limb, which people can still fight on with
Whilst you are trying to get that kind of technique on a person, people can intervene (think crowded pub)

However, chokes and clinchwork is essential for martial artists in self defence situations - there are just some people who you will never be able to knock out (maybe because your hits aren't that hard yet, or because your opponent is three times your size!)


Yoshiyahu said:
Would you say BJJ is more practical in getting a work out and building stamina that it is in self defence techniques??
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Having traiend in quite a few arts, I can honestly say that BJJ is the most tiring and the best workout. Karate comes second and wing chun is third
Because in BJJ you are using your whole body to pivot, gain leverage, etc, you are exercising your whole body
Half an hour of continuous BJJ sparring would be enough for anyone

Yoshiyahu said:
How do you think a skilled TKD guy would fair against a Brazilian Jiujitsu guy in a street fight? In your humble opinion?
Click to expand...
A TKD would have no chance. Like I said, TKD is not a self defence art. BJJ whilst used for sport, also has a very effective self defence side to it (ie you don't always have to go to ground)
 
Please name some Korean and Japanese arts that are basic Self defense arts now used in sports?


Kamon Guy said:
It is both.
Some people train purely for sport
Others train it purely for self defence

They often split the art into gi and no gi training with the no gi training more of a practical session

Things like arm bars etc, whilst effective, are dangerous to perform in the street because they take time and the best result by doing it is a snapped limb, which people can still fight on with
Whilst you are trying to get that kind of technique on a person, people can intervene (think crowded pub)

However, chokes and clinchwork is essential for martial artists in self defence situations - there are just some people who you will never be able to knock out (maybe because your hits aren't that hard yet, or because your opponent is three times your size!)



Having traiend in quite a few arts, I can honestly say that BJJ is the most tiring and the best workout. Karate comes second and wing chun is third
Because in BJJ you are using your whole body to pivot, gain leverage, etc, you are exercising your whole body
Half an hour of continuous BJJ sparring would be enough for anyone

A TKD would have no chance. Like I said, TKD is not a self defence art. BJJ whilst used for sport, also has a very effective self defence side to it (ie you don't always have to go to ground)
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