Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[MJS]

In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.

I love to cross train, so my replies probably sounded like I was suggesting adding a grappling art to your base art. However, I understand some don't like to crosstrain, and thats fine, so at the least, taking a look at a grappling art, again it could be anything...Judo, Sambo, BJJ, Wrestling...anything, see how they address a particular situation, compare that to how your base art addresses it, and see if anything can be added from the grappling art. If it can, great, if it can't thats ok too.

 

[Steve]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

While you asked MJS specifically, since you didn't PM him, I'm presuming that this question is open to everyone. My opinion is that, first, it depends upon the person. Everyone has different talents, abilities and aptitudes... and starts with varying levels of fitness.

Second, it depends upon your own specific goals. If self defense is your goal, some arts seem to teach effective self faster than others emphasizing more "art" than "martial." For example, some people say that tai chi chuan can be effective for self defense, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's the most effective, most practical art for that purpose. If self defense is more important than the sanctity of an art, I would think people would train in whatever works, is practical and has a short learning curve. The specific style or styles involved is irrelevant.

Which leads to my third point, it depends upon how you train. Tai Chi may or may not be good for self defense, but training the way tai chi is trained, self defense is seldom a consideration. Krav Maga, on the other hand, focuses almost strictly on self defense, and it doesn't seem to take very long to progress.

Finally, I think it's telling that very often when these arguments come up, even those arguing against crosstraining have often crosstrained. "I've trained grappling, so I can tell you that it's not necessary. I just use my grappling to help train my students how... not to grapple."

To be clear, I'm not saying grappling is easier to learn than striking, or BJJ than WC (or vice versa). I'm saying that, if SD is your goal, "art" and clear lineage is less important than simply what works and how can I learn it quickly.

 

[MJS]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

I'll do my best to answer your question. Please keep in mind that this is just my opinion. You're not the first person who has asked this question, so my reply is probably going to be similar to what I've said to others.

IMO, I feel that one should have a solid base art first, before looking at something else. I didn't start crosstraining until I was a brown belt in Kenpo. I was in the advanced ranks, and while I wouldn't say I was a master of Kenpo, I had been training for a while, and had a good understanding of the material, so I felt that I was ready to look at something else. Of course, this will vary from person to person. Some may be ready after 4 yrs, some after 8.

Keep in mind, that another question that always comes up is, "How will I find the time?" Well, in school/college, we take many different classes, so yes, it can be done. Speaking for myself only here, and I said this in a recent thread I started about spending a lifetime in the arts, that I am in no rush. I'm not a rank whore, so personally, that isn't a priority for me, and really, it shouldn't be for anyone. What matters most to me, is the learning. For the amount of time I've been training in Arnis, I just tested for my black, last year. But again, that doesn't matter to me. Again, I could care less about the rank, the stripes on the belt or whatever else...its the learning that matters most. My work schedule does not allow me to attend classes at night, so I make do with day time classes, when I can, private lessons, and on nights that I am off, I make it to a class. Fortunately, my teachers understand this, and they work around their schedules for me.

I may not make it to an Arnis class for a month, but like I said, I work the material that I had, get together with other students, etc., and make it happen. I never said it was easy, but yes, it can be done.

As for the arts that I study...those arts came to me, I didn't go to them. One of the teachers at one of my old Kenpo schools, was a black belt in Arnis, and started teaching classes one night a week. I gave it a shot, and was hooked. The BJJ came to me from a guy who had brought his daughter to a class. I was working out and noticed him working some punch/kick combos on a heavy bag in the corner. I walked over, started talking, exchanged info on what we each did, and met for a BJJ lesson. After seeing how much I felt like a fish out of water, I was hooked again.

Like Kenpo, I'm no BJJ or Arnis master. The learning journey for me, is not like some others that we see in the martial arts world, where its a race to see how fast they can get promoted, how many stripes they can show off, and how many arts they can pad their martial arts resume with. I will say it again...none of that matters to me. I am in it to learn, plain and simple. I don't plan on stopping anytime soon, God willing.

Everyone that I train with, has more than one background, so its like I'm constantly surrounded by it. The arts I study, work well for me. They blend together very well, and its amazing how many times, when I'm working techs., that I find ways to add stuff in.

Sorry for the long rant. I hope that this answered your question.

Mike

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, Actually I have trained in Aikido when I was a kid. It was totally unpractical in fights. I never could use any of the moves on people. When I was a kid every one fought like a boxer with the speed of leopard. So waiting for them to strike you and countering all the time doesn't work when you get pummeled with barage of endless attacks. I mean In WC I learn how to block and punch correctly right away. So even if I didn't beat a guy up. I could stop from getting my jocked socked. It was a great feeling to know I could stop the average guy from hitting. High School would have been a nightmare if I didn't have Wing Chun. I hated Junior high because all I knew was some Aikido and a little Judo. After I throw the guy then what. He is going to get up and run for me again. Alot of guys were bigger than me. So the hip throw is out of the question unless I want to be on ground.

I didn't learn how to block or punch effectively until Wing Chun. Its alot easier to chain punch a guys face then wait for him to grab your shirt with both hands. This never happen. No one goes up to you an grabs you by the shirt like they do in classes when your wearing gi. No they say whats up man and then start punching you in the face. Sometime they say nothing an just start punching you because they don't like how you look.

No, No, I mean don't get wrong wrestling is great. We had a wrestling team in high school But i never seen a highschool fight where someone got wrestled. Even the wrestlers knew they better punch and doge. Plus you get to wrestling some cat. Who's to say someone else won't jump in. Free hits. At my school people who didn't know either of you jumped in just to get free hits of someone.

lol...

So for me I cross trained. But no...the Cross training didn't do me any good. Until I started Wing Chun. Even now in a fight Aikido and Judo may work 5% of the time. But its usually only good for transition or delaying his attack. When in a fight you want to totally destroy your opponent quickly. You won't to end the fight quickly not prolong it. I mean its great for showing people possible ways you could put someone in a hold. But the main thing is you have to grabbed their punch. With Wing Chun you do so. But why wrestle with the arm to put them in some submission or Chin Na move when you can strike the head. For instance Jut Sau and Punch at the same time(Wing Chun)...Or you could grab the arm, Step in, twist the arm down, Turn you body, then pull the wrist down making the shoulder point upward(Aikido). Then pull the person to the ground. I rather just kick your legs from under you while punching you in sternum or neck to make you fall!

While you asked MJS specifically, since you didn't PM him, I'm presuming that this question is open to everyone. My opinion is that, first, it depends upon the person. Everyone has different talents, abilities and aptitudes... and starts with varying levels of fitness.

Second, it depends upon your own specific goals. If self defense is your goal, some arts seem to teach effective self faster than others emphasizing more "art" than "martial." For example, some people say that tai chi chuan can be effective for self defense, but I don't think anyone would argue that it's the most effective, most practical art for that purpose. If self defense is more important than the sanctity of an art, I would think people would train in whatever works, is practical and has a short learning curve. The specific style or styles involved is irrelevant.

Which leads to my third point, it depends upon how you train. Tai Chi may or may not be good for self defense, but training the way tai chi is trained, self defense is seldom a consideration. Krav Maga, on the other hand, focuses almost strictly on self defense, and it doesn't seem to take very long to progress.

Finally, I think it's telling that very often when these arguments come up, even those arguing against crosstraining have often crosstrained. "I've trained grappling, so I can tell you that it's not necessary. I just use my grappling to help train my students how... not to grapple."

To be clear, I'm not saying grappling is easier to learn than striking, or BJJ than WC (or vice versa). I'm saying that, if SD is your goal, "art" and clear lineage is less important than simply what works and how can I learn it quickly.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class.

I think it is fine for the first 3 months of Hsing YI you will mostly do Santi anyway or until you can sit in Santi for 20 mins or so how ever long that takes you.

Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?

If you divide your time correctly or have private lessons don't see a problem. If you are training Hsing Yi you will be doing mostly do Santi.
I guess in Wing Chun you start off in stances or so and wrestling you are doing some sort of wrestling/sparing in first class.

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I train Bagua,Hsing yi and Tai chi chuan every day. Adjust your time. If you want to train in more than one art make the time figure out how to make the money to pay for it.

If you work 8hrs a day and sleep 6hrs a day that leaves you with 14hrs to figure out how to train in the arts you want to.

 

[Si-Je]

To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading. I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.
Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time. This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner. If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.
Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap? Is this a viable way to train to defend oneself in the street? This is all debateable. And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.
Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.

 

[Steve]

To say that people have crosstrained that don't believe in crosstraining is misleading.

My intent wasn't to mislead, although i'm not sure I'll ever convince you of that.

I've never crosstrained. I've studied one art at a time for 6 months to 3 years at a time. I wouldn't necessarily call that crosstraining. That is devotion to the art you are in at the time.

By my definition, you've crosstrained. I've also heard what you describe being something of a buffet martial artist.

Cross training to me is taking 2 or more arts at the same time.

Thanks. It's helpful when we're defining the terms the same way. Now that I know your definition of crosstraining, I can comment more accurately on that. If crosstraining is studying two arts at the sam time, I'd say that it's not for everyone.

Some people can learn two foreig languages at the same time and some can't. I wonder if it would be easier to learn two completely different languages, such as Japanese and Spanish, at the same time, or two similar languages, perhaps Spanish and Portuguese. I'll have to run that by my multi-lingual friends.

Anyway, back to the point, it depends upon the person. And their goals.

This I don't recomend if one is to progress in an art in a timely manner.

I agree, and said so in my last post. If progressing in an art is more important than practical, pragmatic, results oriented self defense, you're not doing yourself any favors by dividing your time and attention.

If you want to take a little from one art and then a little bit from another, hense MMA, then that brings a different outcome to the persons style of fighting.

That is very true. Whether this style of fighting is good, bad, effective for self defense or not, it is very different.

Are them "more well rounded?" or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for sport asap?

When some trains in RBSD, are they more well rounded, or are they just compiling a few techniques to allow them to fight for self defense asap? I think that it's semantics. Compiling techniques... or rather, proficiency to the point that a technique is internalized and incorporated into a person's arsenal IS becoming both well rounded and learning to fight ASAP for whatever purpose, be it SD or sport.

And my opinion is already widely known in this matter. Focus on what you train, use what you train, stick to what you know, and adapt your style in application of street self defense. To mix too much can lead to confusion in the heat of the moment, or it could help. It's all up to the individual and the way they learn and can apply what they learn.

I think you've said two different things here and lead into some common ground:

Why I don't like the students of WC to crosstrain grappling at the same time is because WC is learning how to punch and strike at GRAPPLING RANGE. If they always fall back on grappling at that range, they will never learn the striking aspects of WC/WT in that range.
Do I mind them learning grappling later? no. It's their choice, but I prefer them to have a good foundation in all ranges of WT/WC before they crosstrain in a grappling art.
As Sifu said, at the level of Si-Je and SiHing he encourages the assistant teachers to crosstrain in other arts, boxing, kickboxing, grappling, whatever to help them give the newer students a more realistic example of what they may face on the street. But, by then a assistant teacher has been in WC/WT for 3-4 years exclusively. Not everyone after that time in WC/WT becomes a SiHing or SiJe, you can "skip" that training and continue learning WC or whatever art as you like. Not everyone training in any art trains to become a teacher. And a teachers curriculum is different than that of a regular student.

I don't recall anyone saying that you need to or even should start off training in multiple styles. I certainly don't disagree with you on this. I would only say that there are single schools and styles that address all aspects. MMA is, in my opinion, quickly becoming it's own discreet style. It's not there yet, but there is a common formula that is largely accepted that includes aspects of wrestling, bjj and muay thai.

There will always be BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling. I'm not saying these will disappear. Rather, there will be BJJ, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and eventually a single style called "MMA". Of course, it could be argued that this already exists and is called Pancrase.

What I'm driving at is if you train in one school through all of the ranges, you're not crosstraining, and it's rapidly approaching a time when MMA will be its own style where training MMA isn't by definition crosstraining.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

If you work 8hrs a day and sleep 6hrs a day that leaves you with 14hrs to figure out how to train in the arts you want to.

Opps I meant 10 hours to train.

I wonder if it would be easier to learn two completely different languages, such as Japanese and Spanish,

I hear that Spanish and Japanese have the sentence structure similar.

 

[Steve]

Opps I meant 10 hours to train.

I hear that Spanish and Japanese have the sentence structure similar.

I was talking to a couple of people I know who have learned multiple foriegn languages for their take on the subject. One is bilingual from youth, having grown up in Puerto Rico. The others all learned languages as adults. All are fluent. I was surprised by their response and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Their unanimous, immediate reaction was to say that the older a person is, the more difficult it will be to "flip the switch" between distinct languages. They both agreed that it was possible to learn multiple languages at the same time, but as a person gets older, this becomes more difficult. Similarity plays a role, but they disagreed about which was "easier."

Where the conversation began to diverge was when athletics were brought up. A decathlete, for example, learns 10 different sports, but as part of one system. So then the question becomes one of synthesis and integration, rather than the scope of training.

Anyway, it's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure that this provides any resolution or furthers the conversation, but I think it's interesting and at least relevant to the topic.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I was woundering does anyone think Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do would make a good match?

I was talking to a couple of people I know who have learned multiple foriegn languages for their take on the subject. One is bilingual from youth, having grown up in Puerto Rico. The others all learned languages as adults. All are fluent. I was surprised by their response and it makes a lot of sense to me.

Their unanimous, immediate reaction was to say that the older a person is, the more difficult it will be to "flip the switch" between distinct languages. They both agreed that it was possible to learn multiple languages at the same time, but as a person gets older, this becomes more difficult. Similarity plays a role, but they disagreed about which was "easier."

Where the conversation began to diverge was when athletics were brought up. A decathlete, for example, learns 10 different sports, but as part of one system. So then the question becomes one of synthesis and integration, rather than the scope of training.

Anyway, it's an interesting line of thought. I'm not sure that this provides any resolution or furthers the conversation, but I think it's interesting and at least relevant to the topic.

 

[dungeonworks]

I was woundering does anyone think Wing Chun and Tae Kwon Do would make a good match?

I could see using a kick or combination of kicks to close the gap, but other than that I never saw anything that would make them a good match. Who said it was???

 

[Yoshiyahu]

What about some of hand techniques in Authenic Tae Kwon Do. Like there Traditional Forms

I could see using a kick or combination of kicks to close the gap, but other than that I never saw anything that would make them a good match. Who said it was???

 

[dungeonworks]

What about some of hand techniques in Authenic Tae Kwon Do. Like there Traditional Forms

I personally disliked the hand techniques in TKD as done in the forms....same with Karate, but the way I was taught is the over exaggeration of the movements in Karate kata was to work the full range of motion because in a fight, a little movement "feels" like a lot of movement. I agree, especially after seeing my first kickboxing match on video. I felt like I was moving like Bruce Lee or Benny Uriqidez but looked more like a caucasian and 100lbs. smaller BOB SAPP!!! LOL

Bob Sapp

Okay, maybe he has a little bit more musculature! :uhyeah:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats wrong with the hand techniques in TKD?

Please explain how they are over exaggerated?

I personally disliked the hand techniques in TKD as done in the forms....same with Karate, but the way I was taught is the over exaggeration of the movements in Karate kata was to work the full range of motion because in a fight, a little movement "feels" like a lot of movement. I agree, especially after seeing my first kickboxing match on video. I felt like I was moving like Bruce Lee or Benny Uriqidez but looked more like a caucasian and 100lbs. smaller BOB SAPP!!! LOL

Bob Sapp

Okay, maybe he has a little bit more musculature! :uhyeah:

 

[dungeonworks]

Whats wrong with the hand techniques in TKD?

Please explain how they are over exaggerated?

They tend to be inefficient. Many of them are based from the horse stance, be it stepping/jumping in (or off) on an angle while blocking an incoming punch, deeply chambering the punching hand, then executing. While I think it is good in theory for basic hand strikes for a new martial artist, it's slow and choppy and leaves you wide open in the abdomen or face, and the stances never worked for me...this is all just my opinion of course. In Karate, I was taught that the movements are much shorter in sparring than they are in kata. I do love TKD kicks though. A good TKD kicker is hard to close the gap on. They'll keep many at kicking range where they like it.

My opinion on TKD is that a small percentage of practitioners will be able to make it work. It takes flexibility, stamina, speed, and coordination....attributes that many take a lifetime chasing and few ever grasp. Wing Chun is a contrast to it IMHO because it is ALL efficiency.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Did you acquire a black belt in Karate or TKD?

They tend to be inefficient. Many of them are based from the horse stance, be it stepping/jumping in (or off) on an angle while blocking an incoming punch, deeply chambering the punching hand, then executing. While I think it is good in theory for basic hand strikes for a new martial artist, it's slow and choppy and leaves you wide open in the abdomen or face, and the stances never worked for me...this is all just my opinion of course. In Karate, I was taught that the movements are much shorter in sparring than they are in kata. I do love TKD kicks though. A good TKD kicker is hard to close the gap on. They'll keep many at kicking range where they like it.

My opinion on TKD is that a small percentage of practitioners will be able to make it work. It takes flexibility, stamina, speed, and coordination....attributes that many take a lifetime chasing and few ever grasp. Wing Chun is a contrast to it IMHO because it is ALL efficiency.

 

[dungeonworks]

Blue in TKD and 2nd brown (Ni Kyu) in Koei-Kan Karate.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Have you seeen any of the TKD upper Black belt forms?

Blue in TKD and 2nd brown (Ni Kyu) in Koei-Kan Karate.

 

[dungeonworks]

Have you seeen any of the TKD upper Black belt forms?

I've seen themabout 10-12 years ago, when I left TKD for Koei-kan.. I've also sparred with them on many occasions. I left TKD because I simply didn't see anymore reason to stay in it. Plus, the Koei-kan dojo offered kickboxing and Bogu sparring. It is a full contact Karate instead of that tag game 95% of dojo's/Dojang's play. Point karate is not interesting to me at all and that is the type of sparring the TKD school I last trained at did.

Why don't you start a thread about Wing Chun and TKD or just PM me? You seem interested enough and this one is already about Wing Chun + BJJ.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well I think TKD is just like BJJ. It right now is rather one sided. But TKD unlike BJJ is not one sided in its traditional form. Plus what is BJJ but Brazilian JiuJitsu. If we are talking about mixing I think other styles mixed with WC could also be brought up in this thread...Since we are talking about plus WC what about Karate plus wrestling?

Or TKD plus wrestling?

I've seen themabout 10-12 years ago, when I left TKD for Koei-kan.. I've also sparred with them on many occasions. I left TKD because I simply didn't see anymore reason to stay in it. Plus, the Koei-kan dojo offered kickboxing and Bogu sparring. It is a full contact Karate instead of that tag game 95% of dojo's/Dojang's play. Point karate is not interesting to me at all and that is the type of sparring the TKD school I last trained at did.

Why don't you start a thread about Wing Chun and TKD or just PM me? You seem interested enough and this one is already about Wing Chun + BJJ.