Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[Steve]

On a phone so please ignore typos. In BJJ, sensitivity is very important as Brian says. On the subject of intent, along the lines of what mystic wolf mntions, there are common triggers. These are movements that we train so often, over and over, so thy at soon as the opening presents itself, we execute the move. For example, in mount my opponent on the bottom extends his arms. There are lots of these.

Also on the topic of snsitivity, if you really want to see it in Bjj, look at full matches as opposed to the finish. Often the submission is the end of the match of fight, but the real mastery was what led up, often ignored on YouTube.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

We are thinking along the same lines, the difference I see is that we strike.

Alot of WC instructors do not understand that, what they have in wc can be applied on the ground so the feel they have to look else where for a ground art. Then again I have experience in ground fighting which helped me in teaching wc concepts on the ground.

 

[MJS]

mjs, you should know by now that grapplers are always alone, unarmed, toothless, & have giant bulging eyeballs that are much more difficult to protect than the average human being's. Also our groins are evidently enormous targets :d

*reverts to lurking*

jf

lmao!!

 

[MJS]

I'll have a crack , I didn't do BJJ so I can't speak for that but I did train with Pancrase guys and what I found was that I started to develop a sensitivity on the ground when in body to body contact mostly feeling with my chest and legs.

My arm sensitivity and hand speed from Chi Sau came in handy when I was mounted and trying to get an overhook or underhook so I could bridge and roll the guy .

It also helped when I had him mounted I could thwart his attempts to overhook or underhook my arm . So in closing I would say Wing Chun and groundfighting both develop a type of sensitivity that is suited for their specific purposes .

Interesting points that you bring up with the sensitivity. From time to time, we'll do some grappling with our eyes closed. This isn't done too fast, but it does create that different feel.

Sounds like theres one thing that is similar.

 

[Steve]

Interesting points that you bring up with the sensitivity. From time to time, we'll do some grappling with our eyes closed. This isn't done too fast, but it does create that different feel.

Sounds like theres one thing that is similar.

I'll often close my eyes when sparring. Not sure whether it helps or not, but particularly when I'm on the bottom, I think it helps. I can feel changes in weight and more readily identify center of gravity. Glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

During Chi Sau we also have drills where you close your eyes and feel your opponent next strike?

I'll often close my eyes when sparring. Not sure whether it helps or not, but particularly when I'm on the bottom, I think it helps. I can feel changes in weight and more readily identify center of gravity. Glad I'm not the only one.

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Training blind folded hightens the sensitiviy.

 

[theletch1]

Training blind folded hightens the sensitiviy.

We've trained aikido blindfolded and in the dark before for that very reason. It heightens sensitivity because it blocks out alot of extemporaneous data that serves to "overload" the brain when it's trying to sift through all the information that is coming in. Less overload means that your decisions don't have to go through as much filter before you're able to react to the stimuli.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, We should possiblity start a thread on how to use your sensitivity...

Once when I was doing some light sparring with Tai Chi student. I close my eyes while remaining in contact. It was so easy to stop his uprooting techinque and still strike him and move him off his foundation...It felt like I was dancing...I stayed stuck to him the entire time along with continous flow. When I open my eyes he a looked on his like total frustration.

Then from that point I open my eyes and attack as usual...

We've trained aikido blindfolded and in the dark before for that very reason. It heightens sensitivity because it blocks out alot of extemporaneous data that serves to "overload" the brain when it's trying to sift through all the information that is coming in. Less overload means that your decisions don't have to go through as much filter before you're able to react to the stimuli.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Has anyone seen this movie...where can I find it at?

 

[MJS]

We are thinking along the same lines, the difference I see is that we strike.

Alot of WC instructors do not understand that, what they have in wc can be applied on the ground so the feel they have to look else where for a ground art. Then again I have experience in ground fighting which helped me in teaching wc concepts on the ground.

Without the grappling experience, would you say it would be difficult to teach the WC concepts on the ground or would it make no difference?

 

[Si-Je]

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better)

 

[dungeonworks]

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better)

That right there is why getting familiar with a grappling style is important. I found grappling to be pretty fun and a hellluva workout!

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Without the grappling experience, would you say it would be difficult to teach the WC concepts on the ground or would it make no difference?

I would have to say some type of ground experience would help the instructor in order to teach WC concepts on the ground to there students.

 

[MJS]

I'm not speaking for mystic wolf, but I thought that was a really good question. My JJJ background actually made it more difficult to understand the WT ground fighting I kept wanting to "grapple", and that's not what you do with WT groundfighting. Quite the opposite.

But, knowledge in some type of grappling art helps in your ability to teach WT groundfighting to the student. This helps you give them a more realistic feel for what they will come up against, help them feel the locks, takedows, and positions a grappler will most likely use and how to counter these techniques.
Although you can't cover every technique, at least you can teach the student to feel and adjust to more of a realistic grappling technique. I think alot of WT teachers do this to help their students learn the proper application of Wing Chun concepts used on the ground against a wrestler, grappler, or BJJ stylist.
(when hubbie gets home, I'll make sure he checks his MT e-mail to answer better)

I would have to say some type of ground experience would help the instructor in order to teach WC concepts on the ground to there students.

Thank you both for your replies. Now, and this is just an observation, but it seems to me that we've all been fighting over this subject, and it seems that we've come to the conclusion that we're all pretty much on the same page, although there may be some differences. We all agree that having some ground experience will help with teaching defense as well as making it easier to teach the WC concepts. Isn't this what myself and a few others have been saying all along?

 

[mook jong man]

I like to practice grappling with a partner armed with a stick or knife , it just seems to add that little bit of desperation and urgency to your techniques .
Doing things like starting off from bad positions where you are mounted and the knife is held at your throat , this all adds another aspect to grappling that many people don't think about .

 

[Mystic Wolf]

Sounds like what we do. Every now and again we play with weird scenarios like with waht mook jong man mentioned.
Fun stuff...

 

[Si-Je]

Thank you both for your replies. Now, and this is just an observation, but it seems to me that we've all been fighting over this subject, and it seems that we've come to the conclusion that we're all pretty much on the same page, although there may be some differences. We all agree that having some ground experience will help with teaching defense as well as making it easier to teach the WC concepts. Isn't this what myself and a few others have been saying all along?

In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

In that light, yes. But, I'm not certian that's what others were saying, as grappling as a "teaching aide". Seems like many were stating grappling as a WC/WT supplement to add to your self-defense tactics.

 

[dungeonworks]

MJS let me asked you a question? Lets say I just start to learn a combat style like Xing Yi, Wing Chun or Praying Mantis? I never took a martial art before. I am like 21 and interested in learning the entire style and mastering it fairly quickly. Would it be wise to try to take wrestling along with Wing Chun or Xing Yi class since this is my first time taking a martials class. Or should I add BJJ to my Xing Yi or Wing Chun training later?


Whats your opinion?


Is it better to master one style first and learn how to fight other styles with my System I am learning. Or should I try to learn two or three style at the same time so I can be a more well rounded fighter. I mean because Xing Yi,Wing Chun, and Praying Mantis lack the hard techniques of Karate, The flying kicks of Tae Kwon Do and may be even lack some techniques that Tang So Do offers. Maybe if I learn high kicks from karate and learn Xing Yi and learn some form of wrestling and judo I would be a great fighter?

But in reality If I am taking Xing Yi already three nights a week and paying forty bucks a class. Where would I get the time and extra money to incorporate a class that offers high kicks, Hard techniques or ground fighting?

I already training three nights a week? An the rest of time I practicing on what I learn?

Also if I train to arts at the same time how would this effect my training?

Why would you want to train as much as your main style if you are only looking to supplement one style?

There are a TON of speculations and stereo types about grapplers in the Wing Chun world...and this is just an observation from a newbie here. I have about 1 1/2-2 yrs of scattered grappling training, or what many deem "MMA Grappling". It was mainly BJJ submissions, body control, ground escapes, and takedown defense (which is AWESOME) of freestyle wrestling, and some leg locks from Sambo (I assume). We did a ton of rolling in that class from a standing position. Many of the guys competetively fought MMA so there was plenty of striking/grappling together. I have since moved on top Wing Chun and see things in WC class that really could work well on the ground with WC, namely the ground escapes and takedown defence, but also, Chisao on the ground to avoid the pummeling most wrestle/brawlers attempt when they first get you down. After the initial barage, when the fatigue kind of begins, they will look to bury their head, relax, change position to mount, and continue. Here's a video of what I mean:

Disclaimer: Just because the video title says Wing Tsun does not mean it is my claim...as I see nothing Wing Tsun-like in it.

Grappler vs. Wing Tsun (Allegedly)

Notice the grappler holds him closer than his own skin. This is to not let him have a fraction of an inch to move. An intermediate grappler only needs that much room to snatch a submission on you rather quickly. This guy's alleged Wing Tsun could have been greatly improved in this situation with some basic wrestling and BJJ technique supplemented to his Wing Tsun. I don't think the grappler showed anything spectacular other than a size, strength, and some basic wrestling 101 and BJJ chapter 1 technique to finish. If you listen closely at the end, it sounds like something snapping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynyypQ-wa2Q&feature=relatedAaron Baum Wing Chun NHB fight

Here's one of Sifu Alan Orr's students, Aaron Baum, fighting what apears to be modified MMA rules. I see him using wrestling, submission attempts, and what I "think" is Wing Chun but am not able to make that assumption. Seeing Baum flow like this is a desent example of what I was asking for out of this thread. Basically, I am looking to see how WC/WT mesh with positioning and escaping from BJJ (or any grapple art). Who is doing it? Who has done it and went back to Wing Chun entirely, and why??? I am not trying to make a mockery out of anyone or any style, just truely seeking the different ways we aproach the ground. In all honesty, from many of the posts I have read in the Wing Chun forum are HUGELY presumptive and assuming. Basically, I see this attitude of "All you need to do against a grappler is..." and it is far from reality as is a grappler thinking all they need to do against a striker is just shoot for the takedown. Either way skill level, timing, and flat out luck come into play. I have been pummeled by grapplers in a couple fights. It is NOT A HAPPY PLACE TO BE with a chiseled brute (most grapplers are in pheniminal shape). Thank god in both instances their punches were fluffy (this was before UFC and cross training) and I was able to reverse when they got tired of beating on me (You should see what they looked like! LOL).