Steve
Mostly Harmless
As with all things, I think that this is a matter of focus and bias. Do you focus on what's different or the same? I think that if we look, there is likely much in common.
Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =
- Thread starter dungeonworks
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As with all things, I think that this is a matter of focus and bias. Do you focus on what's different or the same? I think that if we look, there is likely much in common.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Well, what approaches to ground fighting and concepts of BJJ is similar to Wing Chun principles and concepts in defense? This is where I'm unclear on how they would be similar to one another.
I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ? And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.? Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding. I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range. I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen. I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible. Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
What my Sifu and I have seen is that many WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later) This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground. This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.
I can see maybe that when a grappler shoots in this could be akin to the WC/WT addage of "shortest distance between two points" in that a grappler comes straight into attack an opponent's foundation in a takedown.
But, once your there how would BJJ be close to WC/WT concept in the actual take down?
i.e. is shooting into the legs or hips head first the most effecient and the most minimal use of brute strength to execute a takedown?
How would you apply WC/WT concept to achieve maximum effeciency in this common and popular technique of BJJ? And wouldn't you expose yourself to being kicked, kneed or be setup to expose your neck and head to being punched, kicked, etc.? Is this technique allowing you to protect your centerline, or keep your centerline on your oponent so you have all your "weapons" at your quick and easy disposal to adapt, respond, and defend against the opponent's counter, parry, or defense?
These are things I think of when thinking of adding BJJ technique to a Wing Chun base of understanding. I'm just not quite seeing how the two would be remotely similar on many levels, and see many conflicts in applying principles of WC/WT while trying to execute BJJ technique.
Plus, like I said, there is a whole range of techniques covered in WC/WT in this very range. I'd just be sad to see those techniques miminized and forgotten because one would replace it with BJJ.
Also, I don't think anyone is saying that a WC/WT person could never be taken to the ground, or that we train with the mindset that that would never happen. I think just about every WC/WT practitioner is aware of that possibility and we generally train to avoid the takedown, be as rooted as possible, while staying relaxed so if the takedown does come we can adapt and respond properly to the energy and inertia of the opponent as quickly as possible. Just because it's not the desire or goal of a WC/WT practitioner to go to the ground on purpose or as a first line of defense, or that we wish to get off the ground asap, doesn't mean WC/WT concepts and theory doesn't cover these situations.
What my Sifu and I have seen is that many WC/WT schools that even teach ground fighting only do so much later in a students training (i.e. 2-3 years later) This is something my teacher has decided to change, and start basic training in anti-grappling in Grade 1 to match what the student is learning standing with same same technique on the ground. This so the student has at least a basic knowledge to defend against this form of popular attack in the beginning to help them feel more secure and well rounded.
Yea, self defense. W/C wants to get the grapplers off the ground, and the grapplers went to get the W/C on the ground.J Bottom line is, all I care about, is the everyday joe, that decides he doesnÂ’t like the economy, and feels he wants to take what I have away from me. God bless him, may the better person win. :wink1:
Steve
Mostly Harmless
For what it's worth, I think you're fixating on one technique, a takedown that is more a part of wrestling than BJJ. BJJ focuses primarily on what happens AFTER the fight goes to the ground. The takedown is incidental. The takedowns I train are largely Judo and Wrestling takedowns, and not to the degree or with the expertise they have. I'm happy to discuss them as I can, but 90% of what I train is ground fighting... what happens when either you or I or both of us are no longer standing up.
Once on the ground, BJJ takes advantage of leverage over strength and size, and stacking the deck as much as possible. Being relaxed, working lockflow and using the opponent's strength and size against them, letting them do as much of the work as possible, is good jiu-jitsu. There are different styles employed, based upon body type. I tend to work a slow, relaxed and controlled game in which I strive to continuously improve position based upon what my opponent does. Others work a more dynamic style. I'm boring to watch, but then, I'm 38. I'd rather let the 20 year old guys move at 90 MPH.
I also don't recall anyone suggesting that any techniques be abandoned or forgotten. I think the idea is whether or not BJJ could be integrated to improve upon, add to or complement the techniques in WC. And again, I don't know enough about WC to be able to say, but I don't see why not. Based upon the video you posted, I think it could at the very least help refine the techniques being taught by providing more realistic techniques to drill against. As I said before, the techniques Emin demonstrated were counter to fundamentally flawed, sloppy technique. This doesn't mean that the moves and concepts Emin demonstrated are good or bad. Just that it's impossible to know from that video because the context in which they are demonstrated was unrealistic fiction.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
I looked back on that post and wasn't too clear on the fact I use the shooting in type of takedown as an example only. How is this condusive to Wing Chun theory, concept and application?
As for what happens once on the ground with BJJ, this I believe would be where the glaring difference in applicaiton and approach would become known from BJJ to Wing Chun. as a very generalized example:
BJJ's intention is to stay on the ground, gain control over opponent with submission or breaking joint, choke, etc..
WC/WT would be more along the lines of escaping the joint lock, choke, submission, etc. and appling WC/WT deflection and striking asap as the practitioner gets off the ground quickly.
Two totally different trains of thought in combat with dealing with a ground fighting situation.
So, how would one use WC/WT concepts to apply BJJ technique? This is the question, no? How would BJJ enhance one's WC/WT defense to make the practitioner more "well rounded of a fighter?" How does BJJ techniques fit and mesh in with WC/WT concepts and fighting approach in application? (to get back to the origional purpose of the thread, and I apologize dungeonworks for deviated so far from it. I understand now how frustrating that is)
Now, my Sifu and I have done this to some extent at a BJJ seminar a couple of years back.
as ex.
Our student with one arm attended the seminar and we had to augment the techniques to fit his needs. And in so doing, we inadvertanly applied WC/WT concepts into the BJJ techniques at the seminar. (as respectfully as possible given the situation and needs of our student.)
One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.
1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
a. our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
b. instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have. Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body.
c. This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position. But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock. The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect. (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.) And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
c. From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up. (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck. He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak.
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this! Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)
Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ. But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us. And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ. Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student.
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do. (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side. Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing. It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this. I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ. Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long. This is really difficult to describe play by play in text. And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text. I hope this helps.
As for what happens once on the ground with BJJ, this I believe would be where the glaring difference in applicaiton and approach would become known from BJJ to Wing Chun. as a very generalized example:
BJJ's intention is to stay on the ground, gain control over opponent with submission or breaking joint, choke, etc..
WC/WT would be more along the lines of escaping the joint lock, choke, submission, etc. and appling WC/WT deflection and striking asap as the practitioner gets off the ground quickly.
Two totally different trains of thought in combat with dealing with a ground fighting situation.
So, how would one use WC/WT concepts to apply BJJ technique? This is the question, no? How would BJJ enhance one's WC/WT defense to make the practitioner more "well rounded of a fighter?" How does BJJ techniques fit and mesh in with WC/WT concepts and fighting approach in application? (to get back to the origional purpose of the thread, and I apologize dungeonworks for deviated so far from it. I understand now how frustrating that is)
Now, my Sifu and I have done this to some extent at a BJJ seminar a couple of years back.
as ex.
Our student with one arm attended the seminar and we had to augment the techniques to fit his needs. And in so doing, we inadvertanly applied WC/WT concepts into the BJJ techniques at the seminar. (as respectfully as possible given the situation and needs of our student.)
One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.
1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
a. our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
b. instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have. Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body.
c. This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position. But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock. The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect. (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.) And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
c. From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up. (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck. He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak.
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this! Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)
Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ. But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us. And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ. Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student.
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do. (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side. Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing. It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this. I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ. Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long. This is really difficult to describe play by play in text. And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text. I hope this helps.
Nope, not agitated at all.
Question for you. If I, or someone else, suggested Judo or Sambo instead of BJJ, would you like those arts more? Or would you still dislike them? Keep in mind, that while we always try to dictate how things go, there are times when that may not always work. For myself, I like to train in all of the fight ranges....punching, kicking, the clinch and the ground. When you land on the ground, you need to be able to adapt, due to the fact that your standup material may not always work.
Seriously, I don't have a problem with that. IMO though, it seems you're a bit blinded to other things, but oh well.
I'll be waiting.
IIRC, people have said that the guys Royce fought in the UFC were hand picked by his brother, to make him look good. I'm simply saying that with all your talk about the mighty WC, I just hope that the grappler that your hubby fights, is good.
Hey, I'm strong about Kenpo as well, but I am not so blinded to the faults.
Disagreeing ones points is one thing. A troll is defined as someone who comes to a forum with the sole intention of causing problems. Feel free though, to report any posts that seem to be in violation of the forum rules. The mods will review them and take any action necessary.
Of course, if you reall read my post, you'd notice that I mentioned no specific person. Does her husband need her for a spokesperson? Come on its like the BJJ nutriders who worship the ground that Royce walks on. Same thing here. You have guys who think that BJJ, Royce and every other Gracie is the bomb, the best thing ever. So thats what we have here....someone so starry eyed, running around saying WC is the best, that her husband is a badass, etc.
As for my wife...no she does not run around and hype up Kenpo, Arnis or BJJ. She does not tell people that I'm Superman. Last time I checked, the martial arts didn't turn people into unbeatable fighting machines. Boxers get beat, MMA guys get beat, anyone is capable of getting beat.
Its all in the wording. I'm sorry if you can't see it.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Typing from a phone so this will be short. First, it's interesting that you bring up one arm. My introduction to grappling was from a guy whose left arm was completely paralyzed. He had it, but it just kind of flopped around. He did just fine. As we all do, he found a way to adapt solid technique to his unique set of skills and abilities.
Regarding the rest, I'll wait until I have the chance to read this more carefully. My first impression is just to remind you that in BJJ there are lots of "right" ways to peform a technique. It's a very practical, pragmatic art. For example, a correctly applied armbar from the top is one in which the hips are in tight, used as the fulcrum, and the strength of the body is focused against the much weaker strength of the opponent's arm. Thumb up to ensure the proper angle against the joint. Knees locked together, and heels pulled back to prevent escape. The finish is somewhat static, but the rest is very fluid.
Regarding the rest, I'll wait until I have the chance to read this more carefully. My first impression is just to remind you that in BJJ there are lots of "right" ways to peform a technique. It's a very practical, pragmatic art. For example, a correctly applied armbar from the top is one in which the hips are in tight, used as the fulcrum, and the strength of the body is focused against the much weaker strength of the opponent's arm. Thumb up to ensure the proper angle against the joint. Knees locked together, and heels pulled back to prevent escape. The finish is somewhat static, but the rest is very fluid.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Okay that's enough. I'm getting tired of this disrespect to me and my husband. I will amend my wording for all who may be confused.
I refer to my husband's experience in posts because he IS my Sifu. I give examples of what he has done as anyone here has described the exploits and exerience of their Sifu's.
A question, does your wife teach these styles with you? Is she your student as well? Are you partners in promotion for a school that you are running?
This is a diffent kind of relationship I have with my husband and it is dual. He's my teacher and I love him as a teacher and as my husband. If some have a problem with that relationship then it is their own affair.
My SIFU has competed in San Shou and is 7-1 (I've posted this a couple of times. Does this denote that I've claimed he is "undefeated?" I would think not.), he's competed in TaiJi Legacy in continous sparring and has NOT lost in that category. My SIFU has competed in numerous Karate tournaments in continious sparring and has NOT lost those competitions once. My SIFU has a very good track record of competing with 100% WC/WT in these competitions and is going to add the cage to that list.
My SIFU is a 4th degree MCMAP instructor for the USMC and has used his WT training many times in combat. My SIFU was one of the major instructors that helped to design MCMAP into the art it is today. My SIFU has black belt ranking in Judo, Kempo Karate, and Kendo.
My SIFU has trained under two masters reaching Level 5 technician under BOTH in Wing Chun and Wing Tsun. My SIFU knows the COMPLETE system of both WC and WT. My SIFU knows butterfly swords, dragon pole, mook jong, escrima, anti-grappling, knife fighting and defense (from USMC) whereas some SIFU's and stylists do not know the entire system of WC/WT.
I am pround of my SIFU, that is why I am his student in the first place, reguardless of the fact that he's my husband as well. If his art was worthless, I'd train elsewhere.
I came on here oringionally and didn't name him as my SIFU only to keep from being presumptous in reguards to his official ranking. He is unaffiliated with any master and has not been "awarded" the title of Sifu, so I did not want to refer to him as a Sifu until we could establish the officiality of that title. But, as it seems, me referring to him as "hubbie" has diminished and disrespected his skill, knowledge, and qualifications as a teacher I will then promote him to status of "Sifu" as a student who seeks his knowledge. Thus, I don't have to speak for my SIFU and if I do, then he knows about what I say and stands by it as my husband as well. I don't post things on here he doesn't agree with or things he doesn't teach me. As well as being him being my Sifu, husband, and I his assistant teacher, I have been his business partner in every aspect of running the school, teaching, marketing, and finance.
If this doesn't clarify the relationship I have with my SIFU and husband more, then I feel it's a total lost cause. But, being insulting and condecending to me, my sifu and husband is not necessary or admirable.
On a side note: He has gotten wind of a "challenge match" from a 5+ year BJJ stylist possibly coming to our humble recreation center tomorrow. This we hope will actually happen (as often they never show when it comes down to it, just talk) and I will definately get video for you all, which is why I profess his 'awesomeness' in the hopes of such a thing happening. If only because so many people demand video proof and one' word isn't enough.
He's waited 4 years (since I've know him) for such an opportunity to be able to be made public.
By the way, does anyone know where I might find a template on designing a waiver of responsibility if one is hurt in sparring, at class, or in a "challenge match"?
Let me see if I can help with this. I'll use myself as an example, but I'll try to follow along with what you're asking about WC.
When the fight is still in the punching and kicking range, I use my Kenpo. Once a grab, such as a bearhug happens or a shoot happens, I still do my best to use the Kenpo concepts, as I said in another post, but I do click into BJJ mode. Now, lets assume that I was not quick enough in my defense, and I land on the ground. The grappler is now either going to get in my guard, try to mount or sidemount me. Can I use some Kenpo? Sure, but I will be limited as to what I can do, for a number of reasons, the main one being that I'm now on the ground and probably won't have the same movement, if I were standing.
However, I can defend myself with the BJJ training. I'm not going to spend long periods of time looking for a submission, instead, I'm going to look for an escape or a position that is better for me. Of course, if the sub. presents itself, I'll take it.
Once I get to a better position, I can continue to fight from the ground or stand up or better yet, try to get the hell out of there.
Also keep in mind, that if we look back to the early UFCs, we'll see strikers trying hard to counter the shoot or clinch, however, we see them get taken down anyways. Watch a few clips of Royce. You'll notice him doing what seems like a front kick. This is not meant to have any serious effect on the person, instead he's using it to guage his distance. Watch the reaction of the other person. They usually are moving back, trying to avoid this kick. However, by that time, its usually too late, the grappler clinches, and is pulled down. Here are some examples:
I will say again, as I've said many times in the past...I feel that all arts have something to offer. I dont think that someone should drop their base art and take up the flavor of the month. I'm simply saying that arts that specialize in something, should be looked at. If someone does WC, and they understand how a grappler is going to take them down, then they can make their WC defense that much better, just like I do with my Kenpo.
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Of course, the same could be said about your hatefest for BJJ.
Ok.
No, my wife does not train. She does support me with whatever training I do though. She knew, when we first met, that the arts were something I had been doing for a long time, long before she came into the picture. She supports that, accepts that, and does not prevent me from training.
Ok.
Ok. Hopefully this'll happen and yes, I'm sure many would love to see video of it.
You're right, it is an art, not a person. However, there are people, such as myself and Steve, who train in it, so in a way, you are taking a shot at the art and anyone who trains in it.
Si-Je
Master Black Belt
To quote my last post on translating WC/WT principles to BJJ and what happens when that is done.
One technique I'll focus on because it gets really involved to write this up and for others to read it.
1. BJJ armbar on the ground where opponent is on their back and you place your legs across their chest and waist to take both your hands to grab their arm and lock out an armbar with their arm between your legs.
a. our student only had one arm so this was very difficult for him to secure the opponents arm.
2. what we had him do by augmenting the armbar:
a. we had him get closer to partner, still getting into position with his legs pinning him from rolling over across his partners chest and placing the arm between his legs in BJJ fashion, was the same.
b. instead of using two hands/arms to grab the trapped arm in the traditional fashion, we had our student wrap the partners arm in a tan sau fashion, tucking the partners hand/wrist under his armpit with the arm he did have. Keeping palm up in tan sau position with arm wrapped and clamped under his armpit and side of his body.
c. This did give the partner room to bend his elbow and put the one armed student in a half crunch position. But, in this position with the tan sau changed the nature of the armbar into a very nasty arm lock. The trapped arm being slightly bent allowed our student to apply a twisting/torking effect on the elbow and shoulder of the opponent in a very painful and devastating fashion.
d. Now a person doing this same techniuqe would still have one hand free to punch and deflect. (holding more true to WC/WT theory and concepts of fighting.) And give the applicant more ability to adapt to the opponent's changing of position.
c. From this "half-crunch" position with the arm locked with the tan sau, we had the student perform a situp motion while moving the tan sau forward as he got up from the ground, pointing the tan sau toward the opponent's head/centerline as he got up. (we had to do this very slow and allow his partner to be released for him to get up completely, although he still had control of the arm as he got up) As he got up his knees planted to the partners ribs/stomach, and neck. He used the opponent to "help" him get up so to speak.
This movement in completion, done as one continous and flowing motion will break the elbow and dislocate the shoulder as you get up with knees digging into injured opponent.
(Man, I wish so that we had video of this! Remind me and I'll see if we can simulate it in video this weekend.)
Now, this is what I would think of when asked to apply WC/WT concepts to something like BJJ. But, I would have never in my life done it if it wasn't for our one armed student participating in a BJJ seminar with us. And really the point being from this experiment is that the technique completely stopped being almost anything akin to BJJ. Since he could not execute the technique at all, Sifu ended up making up technique on the fly using WC/WT concepts to make the BJJ technique workable for the student.
And honestly, if anything, it was far closer to the Goshin Ju-Jitsu technique I used to do. (only difference is we didn't put our legs on the person and lay on our back, we dug the knees into their ribs and neck, having them laying on their side. Sitting in a crouch position on the opponent, and put both hands in a "prayer" postition and twisted the elbow and shoulder in the same "tan sau" fashion.)
All this brought alot of attention to the three of us, and the teacher came to ask questions and was very interested in what we were doing. It was alot of fun, and we all learned alot, but this isn't something I would do much since straight WC/WT covers this. I found that out that day and never knew (I'd been studing for 2 years at that point) still thinking I'd have to supplement my WC/WT with my JJJ. Those thoughts ended in that seminar.
Ack! sorry so long. This is really difficult to describe play by play in text. And is why I use only this type of BJJ armbar as example, simply because I'm more familiar with that technique from BJJ and can explain it best in text. I hope this helps.
Someone please, help me out hear. Maybe I have been posting in this thread for all the wrong reasons. After looking at the you tube film, it was more of a contest then what I thought it was going to be. Not what I thought we were posting about. I thought it would be knock down drag out. There were rules in these matches that would favor one over the other. The boxer had one gloved hand, bad mistake, and in most other matches I did not see some of the principles I thought could change the outcome. We are talking rules here and that is where I made my mistake. We all spent over 140 posts hashing out whoÂ’s art was better and wasted numerous hours of typing. I would never put my self in a situation where my art and my reputation were on the line but yet I could not use all of my techniques, it is just crazy. Were these matches geared toward seeing which art was better, or just to see who could get the other person to submit. If I am wrong. Please, let me know, but I think I would have sunk my teeth into any part of his body I could, and there were many chances, and hung on for dear life. This is what bothers me about this whole cage thing, people look at this and determine that any form of punch, kick or strike is inferior. Have I read this whole theard wrong??Let me see if I can help with this. I'll use myself as an example, but I'll try to follow along with what you're asking about WC.
When the fight is still in the punching and kicking range, I use my Kenpo. Once a grab, such as a bearhug happens or a shoot happens, I still do my best to use the Kenpo concepts, as I said in another post, but I do click into BJJ mode. Now, lets assume that I was not quick enough in my defense, and I land on the ground. The grappler is now either going to get in my guard, try to mount or sidemount me. Can I use some Kenpo? Sure, but I will be limited as to what I can do, for a number of reasons, the main one being that I'm now on the ground and probably won't have the same movement, if I were standing.
However, I can defend myself with the BJJ training. I'm not going to spend long periods of time looking for a submission, instead, I'm going to look for an escape or a position that is better for me. Of course, if the sub. presents itself, I'll take it.
Once I get to a better position, I can continue to fight from the ground or stand up or better yet, try to get the hell out of there.
Also keep in mind, that if we look back to the early UFCs, we'll see strikers trying hard to counter the shoot or clinch, however, we see them get taken down anyways. Watch a few clips of Royce. You'll notice him doing what seems like a front kick. This is not meant to have any serious effect on the person, instead he's using it to guage his distance. Watch the reaction of the other person. They usually are moving back, trying to avoid this kick. However, by that time, its usually too late, the grappler clinches, and is pulled down. Here are some examples:
I will say again, as I've said many times in the past...I feel that all arts have something to offer. I dont think that someone should drop their base art and take up the flavor of the month. I'm simply saying that arts that specialize in something, should be looked at. If someone does WC, and they understand how a grappler is going to take them down, then they can make their WC defense that much better, just like I do with my Kenpo.
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Si-Je
Master Black Belt
Well, I guess the point of the two video's is to demonstrate how a striker needs BJJ to defend against BJJ. Fighting fire with fire?
I prefer water for my fire fight.
Can anyone see the similarities of Wing Chun principles, concepts and techniques in the videos displayed?
I'm really missing it.
I can understand a desire to be able to defend against this type of attack, but I'm not convinced that the best way for a WC/WT practitioner would be to learn how to fight on the ground exactly like this. Using the same techniques on a fighter that knows the very techniques your trying to use, and that most likely is better at them than a student that is only taking the art of BJJ as a supplement. Thus, they may just best you with BJJ anyways simply because they may train it exclusively, and you don't. (just a thought)
The need to be able to defend against this kind of attack is necessary for any fighter or self-defense purpose. But, how is this done with BJJ mixed with WC/WT techniques and concepts? I've asked this alot, because I truely don't know.
I prefer water for my fire fight.
Can anyone see the similarities of Wing Chun principles, concepts and techniques in the videos displayed?
I'm really missing it.
I can understand a desire to be able to defend against this type of attack, but I'm not convinced that the best way for a WC/WT practitioner would be to learn how to fight on the ground exactly like this. Using the same techniques on a fighter that knows the very techniques your trying to use, and that most likely is better at them than a student that is only taking the art of BJJ as a supplement. Thus, they may just best you with BJJ anyways simply because they may train it exclusively, and you don't. (just a thought)
The need to be able to defend against this kind of attack is necessary for any fighter or self-defense purpose. But, how is this done with BJJ mixed with WC/WT techniques and concepts? I've asked this alot, because I truely don't know.
:asian:
157 threads, and now, maybe this can all come to an end. I would have hoped that by now somebody, beside myself, could see that this whole thing is a sport art versus a traditional self defense art. They donÂ’t mix. I feel in the spirit of budo that this whole thing could have been rectified, so as to preserve the integrate of all involved. When you mix 2 or 3 of any art, it becomes MMA. Anybody that continues after this post has not trained long enough to understand the difference. There are so many others subjects we could discuss that would be so much more beneficial. Lets give it a shot. J :asian:
157 threads, and now, maybe this can all come to an end. I would have hoped that by now somebody, beside myself, could see that this whole thing is a sport art versus a traditional self defense art. They donÂ’t mix. I feel in the spirit of budo that this whole thing could have been rectified, so as to preserve the integrate of all involved. When you mix 2 or 3 of any art, it becomes MMA. Anybody that continues after this post has not trained long enough to understand the difference. There are so many others subjects we could discuss that would be so much more beneficial. Lets give it a shot. J :asian:
Mystic Wolf
Orange Belt
Wing Chun vs BJJ:jediduel::deadhorse:redeme:
Yoshiyahu
Master Black Belt
My Dear friend I totally understand you. In the Street Striking Arts rule...In the Cage where the rules are geared more towards grapplers Striking Arts suck...lol...
You can bite in the cage...Sorry thats not a rule...Although biting may be a form of submission....
Also the reason why they wear gloves now...is because those bareknuckle boxers were killing the grapplers...So to even it out...We now have gloves and weight divisons.
There is nothing wrong with Wrestling...There is nothing wrong with Ground fighting...Its apart of fighting and street fighting...There is a time and place to go to the ground...There is a time an place when not too...
Like for instance I never heard a grappler say he would shoot for the legs of someone carrying a butcher knife...Its just stupid..can you say stab in the back...I bet you the grappler will start throwing some kicks and punches then trying to knock the knife holders block off...
But I feel your frustation...But some people can not comprehend the finer points of Striking and Standing Combat. Ground fighting comes easier to them...Now do not take my words to mean they are unintelliegent...on the contrary thier minds are open up in a different way...They will be able to react and comprehend things on the ground faster than I probably could...Beause thats where their passion is...Where I could understand the ins and outs of using leverage sensitivity and structure while standing...
Just realize these people who promote BJJ love it more than life it self...To them it is the holy Grail...Now they are open to striking thats why the cross train western boxing and muay thai...The have to get a standing game...BJJ is their main art but they are missing the strikes...So they have to add strikes to formulate a strategy to distract, shoot, take down, submit.
This is my opinion i hope no one is offended by it...
Shabbat Shalowm....
You can bite in the cage...Sorry thats not a rule...Although biting may be a form of submission....
Also the reason why they wear gloves now...is because those bareknuckle boxers were killing the grapplers...So to even it out...We now have gloves and weight divisons.
There is nothing wrong with Wrestling...There is nothing wrong with Ground fighting...Its apart of fighting and street fighting...There is a time and place to go to the ground...There is a time an place when not too...
Like for instance I never heard a grappler say he would shoot for the legs of someone carrying a butcher knife...Its just stupid..can you say stab in the back...I bet you the grappler will start throwing some kicks and punches then trying to knock the knife holders block off...
But I feel your frustation...But some people can not comprehend the finer points of Striking and Standing Combat. Ground fighting comes easier to them...Now do not take my words to mean they are unintelliegent...on the contrary thier minds are open up in a different way...They will be able to react and comprehend things on the ground faster than I probably could...Beause thats where their passion is...Where I could understand the ins and outs of using leverage sensitivity and structure while standing...
Just realize these people who promote BJJ love it more than life it self...To them it is the holy Grail...Now they are open to striking thats why the cross train western boxing and muay thai...The have to get a standing game...BJJ is their main art but they are missing the strikes...So they have to add strikes to formulate a strategy to distract, shoot, take down, submit.
This is my opinion i hope no one is offended by it...
Shabbat Shalowm....
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