Wing Chun Boxing

[JowGaWolf]

I also notice that this "Wing Chun" boxing is very focused on the hands and not kicks. I wonder how it would handle kicks or if it was even meant to deal with kicks.

 

[KPM]

Obviously because you're only familiar with WB, and know nothing of other TCMAs that use this same action.

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The original video which started this argument showed one of Sean's guys training for MMA. He was using sweeps and throws from MMA. He was using ducks and weaves from MMA. Not a big jump to assume that the high cover he used (which looked far more like a boxer's high cover than the movement in your Biu Jee form) was also actually inspired by MMA/Boxing. That's not to say the concept cannot be found in your Biu Jee form, the physical manifestation seems to me inspired by boxing. Boxing is ubiquitous in western culture. Everyone has seen a high cover. How do you know what the guy is doing in the video clip above was not also inspired by what boxer's do? Show me a clip of Ip Man or Wong Shun Leung doing a high cover like this and then you'll have a more convincing argument. Otherwise the most common sense conclusion is that modern Wing Chun people have been influenced by exposure to western boxing in a modern fighting context. Because boxing works. People tend to take notice of what works and want to do something similar. And there is nothing wrong with that! Martial arts evolve! Its a poor statement to think that your VT is so "pure" and so "perfect" that it cannot be improved upon or adapted for modern times.

 

[KPM]

I was glad to see that he fights with the right heel up as much as possible when he punches. It actually verified what I thought would happen. He loses power when he punches with the rear heal continuously up.

He is actually doing chain punching or a Wing Chun "blast" in this clip. Those aren't boxing punches. They are meant to be very fast and repeating and not power punches. Your criticism is a bit off because you obviously don't understand what you are seeing. Look at other clips. When doing boxing punches, Rackemann can produce plenty of power!

 

[KPM]

Now sure what you mean "Heel is just up"

A boxer typically does not slam the heel into the ground to produce power. For most, either one heel or the other is up all the time. Power is produced by a drop in weight while shifting the weight forward, or by a rotation from the waist with at least one foot pivoting on the ball of the foot. I'm planning on doing a video lesson on the "falling step" and rotational power...hopefully next weekend....that will show what I mean.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He is actually doing chain punching or a Wing Chun "blast" in this clip. Those aren't boxing punches. They are meant to be very fast and repeating and not power punches. Your criticism is a bit off because you obviously don't understand what you are seeing. Look at other clips. When doing boxing punches, Rackemann can produce plenty of power!

What good is a punch without power? This is what I was looking at: His foot with his heel constantly up and the the disconnect between body and the punch. It doesn't matter if the punches are fast or slow. If the punches have no power then they will be of no help either in a real fight or competitive fight, unless you are doing point sparring. This why I made the reloading for the gun comment.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A boxer typically does not slam the heel into the ground to produce power. For most, either one heel or the other is up all the time. Power is produced by a drop in weight while shifting the weight forward, or by a rotation from the waist with at least one foot pivoting on the ball of the foot. I'm planning on doing a video lesson on the "falling step" and rotational power...hopefully next weekend....that will show what I mean.

I didn't say anything about slamming the heel on the ground. Watch any video of a professional boxer and you'll see that the heel comes back down. It does not stay up as if someone is trying to walk on the tip of their toes. If your foot is already in the finished position when you start your punch then you can't get power because you aren't pivot, you are just on your toes and that is what I was seeing in the video. There's a difference between weight on the toes vs heel up.

 

[KPM]

I didn't say anything about slamming the heel on the ground. Watch any video of a professional boxer and you'll see that the heel comes back down. It does not stay up as if someone is trying to walk on the tip of their toes. If your foot is already in the finished position when you start your punch then you can't get power because you aren't pivot, you are just on your toes and that is what I was seeing in the video. There's a difference between weight on the toes vs heel up.

Right. And as I said, in that particular clip he is not doing boxing punches. He is doing a "blast." Don't have time to search for it right now, but you can find on youtube video of Paul Vunak doing a JKD "straight blast" and pounding the heck out of a guy in a motorcycle helmet. His heel is likely up the whole time as well. It is a drive forward with fast punches meant to overwhelm the opponent and drive him back. It has power. But the power comes from the momentum driving forward, not necessarily from hard impact.

 

[geezer]

Someone just posted this video in another thread. So, that makes at least 3 unrelated lineages that have this idea from Biu-ji.
If you admit it is in the "DNA" of VT/WC, then it was not transplanted. If you want to suggest that everyone is just copying WB, you need to support your claim with actual evidence. That the action is used in other styles, and that you may have not learned it in your WC/VT/WT is not evidence of origin. It is just your biased supposition.

LFJ --is this addressed to me??? 'Cause if it is, you're wasting your time. I'm not interested in arguing with you. Try KPM instead!

I already said I can absolutely see a connection between the final arm swinging movement in Biu Tze and lifting the arms to cover the head. But I don't look at that Biu Tze movement as teaching one particular application.

Besides, my main point was that a movement can already exist within a style and also be influenced by similar, and perhaps better adaptations of the same concept in other systems. It's not an either-or situation. Call it borrowing, melding , influencing, whatever. It happens a lot. Especially when natural selection (other evolving fighting methods) is pushing you do adapt or die out.

Now regarding that video by Sifu Nick Edmonds. Yeah, he's not far down the road from me. I've visited his kwoon and done a bit of chi sau with him. A great guy, and he has some good ideas. He's in the Sam Kwok lineage of YMWC. Last I heard, he'd turned his studio over to his kung-fu brother, Sifu Sol Black, so he could take time to study some other martial arts to round out his game a bit.

 

[Martial D]

It seems pointless and pedantic to argue where a movement or body position came from. I'm pretty sure nobody can patent these things. There are a finite amount of ways the body can move, and far fewer still that are effective for combat...of course there will be some crossover.

All that matters(to me anyway) is if the movement or position is effective, not who claims to own it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Right. And as I said, in that particular clip he is not doing boxing punches. He is doing a "blast." Don't have time to search for it right now, but you can find on youtube video of Paul Vunak doing a JKD "straight blast" and pounding the heck out of a guy in a motorcycle helmet. His heel is likely up the whole time as well. It is a drive forward with fast punches meant to overwhelm the opponent and drive him back. It has power. But the power comes from the momentum driving forward, not necessarily from hard impact.

If you are talking about this guy? then I can tell you that ain't going to work. I had someone charge at me like that and I took his legs away from him and he ended up on the floor. There is an assumption that the punching like that will "drive and opponent back" Some people go back and others don't. People have been known in real life to step off center line when people drive in like that.

When I look at that video I see a lack of root in his stance and in his movement. To me is clear to see because you can tell when he's off balance because it looks like he's falling off balance. I watched his other videos where he didn't look off balance like that when he took more of a common fighting stance.

 

[geezer]

Jow Ga --IMO this boxing coach explains things really well. You will notice that while his rear foot is heel down, he is weighting the balls of his feet to be springy and alive.

Now here's a tape with him applying the stance to a right cross. The heel comes up to power the punch like you said, but it's always up a hair, or at least he's always weighting the ball of his foot, then the heel comes fully up as he rotates to deliver the punch (what my DTE Eskrima coach calls "squashing the bug"):

BTW I never knew much about boxing, ...it was only when we started subletting space at a nearby boxing gym that I realized how much boxing I'd trained in Latosa Escrima. GM Rene is not only a absolute master of Filipino Cadena de Mano (Filipino "dirty" boxing) but he also boxed competitively on the Air Force team. When he taught us virtually the same stance, how to develop short-power via the "drop-step", etc. I thought I was just learning his Escrima. Actually it was both Escrima and Western Boxing.

--Hey that's an example for LFJ showing how techniques can already exist in one art and also be influenced by another. God save us from binary thinking! The world is not black and white.

 

[geezer]

Did a little checking on Fran Sands. He's a Liverpudlian, and has a good rep as a coach, but contrary to online rumors he's not the "fifth Beatle".

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jow Ga --IMO this boxing coach explains things really well. You will notice that while his rear foot is heel down, he is weighting the balls of his feet to be springy and alive.

Yes I understand this. I understand weighting the ball of the feet vs heel raised. Not sure where I caused the confusion in this. This is not foreign to Jow Ga some of our techniques require that we put weight on the balls of our feet. The movement that I original mentioned in the Wing Chun video was heel up as if was stuck at the end of straight right. I can copy a series screen shots from that Wing Chun boxing video if needed. I know my eyes aren't playing tricks on me. I least I hope not, but I'm pretty sure that's what I saw in that video.

To me, weight on toes is not the same as heel up.

 

[geezer]

Yes I understand this. I understand weighting the ball of the feet vs heel raised. ...To me, weight on toes is not the same as heel up.

Yep, I think we agree here. When I work with weapons or empty-handed in Escrima, I weight the ball of my rear foot and have the heel up a bit, then when I fire my strike I drive off the ball of the rear foot and the heel comes up more. The exact dynamics vary according to the strike. Wing Chun is a different animal. Usually, the feet are kept flat. There is still weight shift, torque and body engagement in the punch, but via a different "engine". As for "Wing Chun Boxing" I don't know. Just put that in there for discussion.

 

[LFJ]

Because western boxing works. You can find a top tier western boxer. Spar him find out if he has methods that work.

And then use those methods.

Like you did with BJJ. Rather than using some obscure grappling art.

That WB works does not justify the claim that this action found in multiple unrelated WC/VT lineages came to them from WB.

That claim has no evidence.

 

[LFJ]

Not a big jump to assume that the high cover he used (which looked far more like a boxer's high cover than the movement in your Biu Jee form) was also actually inspired by MMA/Boxing.

It is a big jump because you have 0 evidence for that.

Also, still images showed the exact same position in the form and sparring, and it is interpreted this way by multiple unrelated lineages.

Boxing is ubiquitous in western culture. Everyone has seen a high cover. How do you know what the guy is doing in the video clip above was not also inspired by what boxer's do?

Because we have multiple unrelated lineages that have the same idea already in the BJ form. I've shown Chinese practitioners using it. It's also in other TCMAs that predate WB by centuries.

If you want to say they all copied WB, you have a lot of work to do providing evidence.

People tend to take notice of what works and want to do something similar. And there is nothing wrong with that! Martial arts evolve!

Sure. The BJ form is open-ended. That's the last action in the form. It has been there long enough for multiple unrelated lineages to have it.

If you want to claim they've all reinterpreted their forms with WB, you need to give evidence for it. So far, you have only made a bald assertion.

You first challenged me to show where it is in the forms. I showed you.

Then you challenged me to show a 1st generation student of WSL doing it. I showed you.

Now there are multiple examples of different lineages that have it.

I've done enough to show that it is a legit part of the WC/VT system.

If you want to continue asserting that it is a reinterpretation based on WB, it is your turn to provide evidence.

Don't just baldly assert "it's logical" and then require video of YM doing it.

Surely, if I had that footage you'd then ask for video of Leung Jan doing it before you'd concede...

 

[drop bear]

That WB works does not justify the claim that this action found in multiple unrelated WC/VT lineages came to them from WB.

That claim has no evidence.

I didn't make that claim.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yep, I think we agree here. When I work with weapons or empty-handed in Escrima, I weight the ball of my rear foot and have the heel up a bit, then when I fire my strike I drive off the ball of the rear foot and the heel comes up more. The exact dynamics vary according to the strike. Wing Chun is a different animal. Usually, the feet are kept flat. There is still weight shift, torque and body engagement in the punch, but via a different "engine". As for "Wing Chun Boxing" I don't know. Just put that in there for discussion.

We are on the same page. The same thing you describe is how the Jow Ga shuffle works when we use it to chase people down. Most of the time we one or two shuffles with foot flat is all that we need to maintain distance and contact. I think (I could be wrong) this may be the same thing with Wing Chun. Because of the way the push happens it gives the appearance that the Wing Chun practitioner hasn't moved his legs, yet the practitioner some how keeps up. The legs and heels don't have the tale-tell sign that the Wing Chun guy is about to advance. Wing Chun from what I'm able to tell is able to compensate for this limitation by stepping forward. Jow Ga compensates by doing the same and by making sure that the rear foot has brief contact to the ground. Maybe it's similar to how the rear leg pushes in fencing. We us a cross stance as well to cover more ground but it's more of a deception step. But other than some system differences we are thinking the same thing and understand it in the same way with the weight on the toes ready to push.

 

[LFJ]

It seems pointless and pedantic to argue where a movement or body position came from. I'm pretty sure nobody can patent these things. There are a finite amount of ways the body can move, and far fewer still that are effective for combat...of course there will be some crossover.

Correct. The action is just a refinement of a natural instinct to cover one's head.

That's why it comes up in multiple unrelated fighting arts from East to West.

All that matters(to me anyway) is if the movement or position is effective, not who claims to own it.

I agree, which is why it's silly to insist that it belongs to WB, and use that excuse to invalidate VT methods by saying "but, that's not VT, it comes straight from WB."

And, not to be forgotten, without offerring a bit of evidence!

 

[geezer]

After reading the last couple of posts by LFJ, once again I regret that we don't have, in addition to "like", "dislike", "agree", and so forth, ...also a "just settle down", or a "for god's sake chill-out" icon to click.